The Key to All US war strategy

Subject: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

I have joted down a brief (head ,heart ,hands) war strategy elsewhere which may be employed a bit but the ultimatum to the world is sometimes hard to understand. The war is to be "limited only by our 'global' reach". What does that mean? What is the key to understand our War strategies and policies?

The best way to make sense of what at times seems too big to handle is to see it in the simplest possible light.

The Key is this; Nearly every cowboy western you have ever seen has all the elements of our war strategies.

Here is one for small countries (more to follow)

"OK Black Bart yer gonna eat lead" 'but i dont hava gun' The marshall throws one down on the ground in front of Bart. "Go ahead , reach fer it" 'I dont wanna' "Go ahead ya coward , I'll give ya a count to 3. One Two ThrBANG " Black Bart bites the dust.

Larger foes:

Were gonna get a posse...

When we cannot even definitely name the outlaw...?????

The storyline for this kind of scenario would be "The Sons Of Katie Elder". In this western we are not sure till half way through who the terrorist is even though the town kinda knows and is harboring the villain and his henchmen. John Wayne is the USA in this movie and gets his man while still trying to obey the laws of the land. Trying to obey the law costs him one brother and the wounding of his other two.

I am making no political statement here {well mebbe just a bit}, but mostly a change of pace from the horrific overload of TV. Humor is impossible during extraordinary times like these but is essential all the same. The broadway shows of NYC go on. The audiences still laugh. They need to laugh. Artists rise to the occaision as everyone else during times of war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "He's up thar in those rocks somewhere. You go around and come up the back while we cover you". 'But thats Indian territory back there' "Wouldja rather we walk straight up that mountain in plain sight?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe we kin just burnem out?" 'The winds goin the wrong way. It'll just come back on us. Now git on up thar and flush him out from behind. We'll head em off at the pass.' "oooOK"

"Ah dont care if they are friendly, Chief flamin foot's war party is down there somewhere, besides the only good injuns a dead injun."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Sheriff , there holed up in Injun country and the heathens said they won't handem over." 'We'll just ride in with our posse and takem' "Some of the boyz down thata way are too skittish to join up" "A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do, Were goin in" "We want Ben Laden Dead or Alive. Were gonna huntim down ,smokim out, and bringim to justice." George W. Bush Ye Haw Were gonna git every last one ofem. "Thats stretchin it Slim."

YUR EITHER WITH US, OR AGIN US

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:43 AM

I'll try to be with us , but I'd prefer a Guiness.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Marymac90
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:54 AM

Of course, these strategies only work in the movies, which were written to "teach a lesson" and end with a victorius situation for the "Good Guys", who remain good, even if they violate other's human rights, including killing innocent people. The "Dirty Harry" movies were all about how a good cop supposedly HAS to violate the rules to catch the bad guys.

"Eliminating Terrorism" is an impossible task. Terrorism is the act of people who feel like they've been unheard, misunderstood, unequal, denied justice, and otherwise powerless. When we kill a terrorist, 10 sympathizers will replace him in the ranks, and 100 more will become supportive. When we kill a non-terrorist, someone defending his country, 1000 countrymen will take his place. When we bomb or invade a country and kill non-terrorists, 10 countries will become sympathetic to the invaded one. This isn't WWII, with uniforms and fronts and territory you can call "ours" or "theirs". Did we learn nothing from Viet Nam?

The only reasonable strategy to take against terrorism is to work on the CAUSES of terrorism. How can we increase communication with the people we call "terrorists"? How can we treat them with even-handed justice--not just "Well, Bin Laden seems to be the top terrorist, and we wanted him for something before, anyway, so let's pin it on him". That kind of justice was called "lynching" in the pre-civil rights era (apartheid era) South.

There have been MANY occaisions when the US has sponsored and supported terrorism--that's what the School of the Americas teaches. Coups, assasinations, death squads, etc. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, "Terrorism" is the new unforgivable sin. Of course, stock brokers died instead of peasants, too.

I'm not trying to say that I think terrorism is ok, and we should just let it go, but I am trying to say that you can't just have a neat little operation and "remove it". And I am saying that we have used, and encouraged others to use many terrorist techniques.

Feedback is welcome.

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Strategies on the drawing board:

Deception at home and abroad may include ; Life size inflatable White House in the poor black secions of Washington DC. , Arab-English dictionaries and flight manuals that will TRIP UP the terrorist."I would like to rent a mid sized Ford Automobomb." "To increase precise turning and climbing accuracy apply the reverse thrust air brakes.",

Of course since ALL American journalists are now forbidden in battle the military will fill the void and supply real time digital representations of our glorius victories.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:12 AM

Mary I agree with EVERYTHING you have said but as far as your right to say it ... there is a growing fervor against such "unpatriotic" liberal , defeatist , Arab loving , flag spurning , flame baiting , anti USA , limp wristed leftie knocked kneed cowardly pacifist drivil rhetoric such as yours. Yee HAAAW boys lesgo gitem...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM

Donuel,

What do they say about more truth spoken in jest?

Sadly enough, people are not going to Broadway shows--The Producers, though sold out, often has as much as half of the theatre empty, "Rent" played the other night to only 70--"Bat Boy", which is a fantastic, off-Broadway show that is sort of a combination of "Tommy" and "The Rocky Horror Picture Show", had been packed during the summer, and will now be forced to close Sunday--as will a number of other shows. People are too depressed to go out--

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:28 AM

With a big enough disinformation campaign that Broadway is Booming there is still hope.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Yeah but..
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM

The real strategy for ending terrorism:

1.Nuke Israel out of existence. Then there will be no need for U.S. support of any kind to Israel and the anti-Israeli's will love us instead of wanting to kill us. 2.Adopt the most extreme, fanatical interpretations of Islam, then the fanatics will love us instead of wanting to kill us.

3.Do not come to the aid of any nation that is being threatened or invaded, then the invaders will love us and not kill us.

4.Retreat within an isolationist shell and ignore all affairs beyond your borders even if others ask your help or involvement, then there will be no reason for anyone to want to kill you.

5.Or, simply treat the entire world's water supply with mild altering drugs that prevent lust, greed, envy, aggression, and anger.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM

Donuel, you watch too many movies. Also be careful of varnish fumes. They can alter the brain chemistry.
Mary, they don't WANT to talk to us.
They want to KILL us AND anyone who supports us. If you will read bin Ladens fatwa you will see that he does not adress economics at all.
Your belief that all we have to do is sit down with these people and address their grievances is touching, and, in other cases might work.
bin Laden, however, objects to our very existance and, while you might be willing (out of some feeling of guilt) to commit suicide to appease him, I do not share your feelings. It has come down to them or us.
I'd just as soon it was them.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

Our dearest 'Yeah but', The irony of achieveing in reality nearly every one of your satirical points by way of escalation should not be lost on you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Troll , I have clicked the translation button at the bottom of your posts to no avail...they still do not make any sense.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Marymac90
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM

They wanted to talk at the UN Conference on Racism, and first we refused to send Colin Powell, then we walked out altogether!

If it's us or them, how do we have any assurance that those we kill will actually BE them? Or do we just take an attitude of "The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim"?

Maybe Afganistan has so few resources, they won't be able to mount a very strong resistance to us. But there are a lot of Muslim countries that would not invite us in to "clean out" the terrorists, or fall over if we threatened to invade them. And of course, the terrorists, wherever they are, are not going to respond by putting on uniforms, and meeting our troops on the field of combat. They are going to respond with MORE acts of terrorism. Then what?

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:02 AM

The real irony would be if anyone actually interpreted my comments as anything but satire in regards to the futility of finding an ideal solution.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: sophocleese
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM

Let me see, CIA trains/assists somebody in their rise to power within a particular Islamic grouping, in order for their help against another foe. The assisted somebody then gets out of hand and starts attacking the USA and/or friends of the USA. A president named after a plant reacts by talking tough, getting impatient with slower more thorough methods of peacemaking, and issues an ultimatum. Why do I feel like I'm caught in a time loop?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:27 AM

Whether or not some of us can draw humorus paralells of 'Blazing Saddles" or "Unforgiven" to the futilities of war - We got us here a whopper.

As they say you can't trade horses mid stream so were stuck with Sheriff Tumbleweed.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Awright, awright, all you boys settle down, here, settle down, just settle down here. You folks in town dint do nothin to invite this hyar range war into yore lives. Ah reckon I can understan that. But Sherriff Tumbleweed hyar, why he's steppin up to a problem, and the hard thing is, if it ain't stepped up to now, the next thing ya know it might be the blacksmith shop! Or the schoolhouse! These desperadoes are trying to run us off, and we won't run. Now, I say we back Sherriff Tumbleweed up until we done cleared out the outlaw nests in these parts and kin get back to normal livin, ranchin, schoolin' prayin' and occasional drinkin' down there at the Yall-Come-Back Saloon.

Ah say, we-all have cliches to live up to, an I fer one intend to live up to 'em. Naow whose with me on that, no wboys??

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:21 AM

Now thats the spirit even iffin itaint zakly right. Now whats this I heeerd about Doc Smithers tendin to a case o' small pox up in Mt. Pilot?

Didn't we burn all them small pox blankets we gave the natives after the injuns died off?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM

Troll: Why is it I get the feeling that the 'touchy feely' crowd is not listening to common sense, and obviously is not doing alot of reading on the subject they are so willing to criticize?

Mary: Have you read one thing about Bin Ladin? I really want to know... I have done alot of reading about Bin Laudin, his decrees, and the validity of his decrees according to islamic beliefs. Troll is very correct, he is not going to stop. He has declared a war against the West, particularly America. He does not care if citizens get killed. I also wonder if you watched the president's speech? I know that he had stated that this was not a war against Muslims.... but was against a handful of extremists that have killed thousands of innocent people. If we just drop this, let it go, walk off and play nice, will you take your part of the blame when the next attack takes place? When the extremists come back, percieving the US and it's allies as weak. what will it take before you realize you cannot ignore this threat? How many die before you decide to respond? Give me a number... they will not talk this out with us... Bin Ladin has made his stance clear, so have we...

Don: Other than the fact you dislike Bush, What is your problem with him? Petty little jabs and insults dont' really give your complaints or criticisms any validity. lets see what you dislike, and hear what should be done. Otherwise... this is just a place to bash teh president for you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

This here thread is for the lighter side pard. Iffin you want a book lerning thread ya goota go yonder. Amos seems tuvgoter right. Were jus a buncha cowboys here.

You see this here BADGE? This badge belonged ta Sheriff Jones. This is what were fightin for an all the tothers who died in the great bank fire.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Don. I didn't write it for you. I wrote it for the rest of the Forum. I knew you wouldn't understand it. But They did.
Mary, I realize they wanted to talk at the UN conference on Racism. They wanted to talk about the "racist apartheid state" of Israel, which state they have been trying to destroy since it was formed in 1948. That's hardly a dialogue that's going to go anywhere. The rest of the conference talked about reparations for something that ended in this country 130 years ago. I suppose the reason they didn't discuss reparations from Somalia is that slavery is still going on there. And, of course, Somalia is on the UN's Human Rights Council.
The whole thing was an opportunity to bash the US. Our Govt. knew it would be and that's why Colin Powell didn't go. To have sent him would have lent legitimacy to the whole farrago.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

Donuel... Is there an extra bar stool there for a New York based Uilleann piper who lived through McCarthizm once in his life and who feels one Joe McCarthy is enough for any life time??????????????????? Cheersm'dears Larry

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

InOBU; hopon up this stool pard. Maybe I'll throw a nickel in the jute box an we can giver a listen to this here LP "THE INVESTIGATOR"

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:01 PM

Larry , I reckon thars enuf material rot heer ta maka CD "Th'unmarked graves of Boot Hill"

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

Och Donuel! I just stopped in at the War on terrorism post, and realize there is as much danger to freedom over there as over here, so I better just get back to work singing truth to power. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

I think he said, The Sheriff is Near...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM

To the war zealots who think no one else reads or knows the danger of terrorism.

No one doubts the dangers. Most of the discussion revolves around what we can control - our response.

For an enlightened nation, our response in last nights speech was the most belicose ultimatum I have ever heard. For an Islamic nation to get on board now is an impossible sell.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:53 PM

Colin Powell is NEar?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM

Candygram for Mongo...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

troll,

I thought the slavery was in the Sudan? Or maybe it's both.

Regards

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Both as I understand.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Mongo like candy.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

Let's be accurate MaryMac. Terrorism by MEN is the new unforgiveable sin!

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM

Don: Ok... what is your suggestion? How should we handle it? Honestly, I am obviously someone you consider a 'War Zealot' so i want to know what you would do. I assume that you are speaking from an enlightened standpoint, knowing the history of Bin ladin... not just what is out there on the internet, but the evidence that the government has. What is your position, and please defend it. Other than saying we must control our response, which we have, What is it that you would suggest if you were the advisor? I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, I really do want to know what 'controlled response' to terrorism means. Seems to me that we have had a controlled response, or no effective response in the past, so what is it that we should do now?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM

Fantacy Strategy,

Employ principals of United States constitution to people outside its boarders. Equality, justice, rule of law. Continue to try to help but no more hidden agendas, tell Israel to make peace or they are on their own. Tell China it is their choice how they govern themselves but if they do not respect human rights then we will buy our toys and batteries elsewhere. Tell the people of America that peace, order and good government throughout the mid east is more important than cheap oil.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

If we told China we would buy our toys elsewhere, then we wouldn't have any toys a-tall! Or damn near, anyhow.

Speaking of Westerns, we need somebody like Tell Sackett on the case. Tell Sackett always beat the bad guys and got the chick in the end.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM

Enforcement by the military is the last resort not the first. When all political solutions fail all that is left is killing for your cause. When 90% of your citizens are dead from bio war there is no cause, there is no nation.

Without a Global tribunal to clearly deliniate who the enemy is prior to enforcement the war will be based on unilateral ultimatum and attack. Whoever the allies may have been in the Islamic world, once the first of their own are killed in anger, America will be entering into a progressively weakened position.

Detente can still be used as a motivation for potentially allied Islamic nations to clean their house of terrorists. Our ability to make war is not the question. Our ability to make peace was given less than a week. Stand up and be not afraid. Your patriotism may help you die proudly or you may live long enough to see a self declared victory. The time for a sensible response has already been side stepped, so fight on , write some war songs. Learn of some neighbors you never knew existed so you can hate them better.

One bomb in the holy shrine of Mecca by anyone mad enough to do it will mean a holy war ad infinitum. Engaging in a war with many fronts has been a mistake all Empires have made in the past. They are no longer around.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM

A retraction: The absolute worst case scenario for a combined bio nuclear attack on the USA would probably be no worse than 30% of the total population. St. Louis Post-Dispatch 9-20-1

ANTHRAX - Infection and symptoms: Anthrax is a livestock disease caused by Bacillus anthracis bacteria. The bacteria form spores that can live in the soil for decades. In a biological weapons attack, anthrax would most likely be spread as a cloud of spores. Such a cloud inhaled by a city's residents would create widespread flu-like symptoms, killing 80 percent of those infected within one or two days after their symptoms appear. for example

Anthrax - Incubation period: Once spores enter the lungs, anthrax produces symptoms usually within one to 10 days but may incubate up to 43 days. It is not spread from person to person. Anthrax has not been seen in humans in the United States in 20 years, so even one case could indicate an attack. - Vaccines and treatment: Treatment with antibiotics must begin before anthrax's flu-like symptoms begin. An anthrax vaccine is currently available only to the military in extremely limited supply. SMALLPOX - Infection and symptoms: The world has been free of smallpox cases since 1978, but some strains are maintained in laboratories. The former Soviet Union reportedly stockpiled large amounts of the virus for use in weapons. The virus is easily spread from person to person. An aerosol release of smallpox infecting only 50 people could unleash an epidemic killing 30 percent of those infected with the painful, disfiguring disease. - Incubation period: Smallpox may take up to two weeks to appear in infected people. The disease starts as a rash resembling chicken pox, but other complications may occur. Most patients die of severe inflammation. - Vaccines and treatment: There is no known treatment for smallpox. Vaccinations in the United States ceased almost 30 years ago. People vaccinated then may no longer be immune to the virus. The United States has limited stores of the vaccine, and efforts are under way to develop new vaccines. PLAGUE - Infection and symptoms: The plague, caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis, caused the Black Death epidemics that killed large populations of Europeans in the 14th century. Widespread outbreaks are now rare, but a few cases of bubonic plague still show up in the southwestern United States every year. A biological terror attack would probably involve the pneumonic form of plague and could kill up to 60 percent of those infected. If 100 pounds of Black Death bacteria was released over a city of 5 million, about 150,000 people would contract the disease. More than 35,000 of those would probably die. The Soviet Union produced massive quantities of the bacteria for weapons use. - Incubation period: One to 10 days after exposure, victims begin to show symptoms of severe respiratory and gastrointestinal problems. The disease can spread from person to person. - Vaccines and treatment: Treatment with antibiotics would be effective during early stages of the infection. No vaccines are available to protect against plague. http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=SIEGE-BIOWAR1-09-20-01&c at=AN

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:33 PM

GUEST, just a nobody... we do everything we possibly can to promote, protect, and preserve a coalition with as many countries in the world as we possibly can.

We work together with all of the countries in the coalition to come up with a plan to use diplomatic, law enforcement, and finanial avenues to isolate and starve the organizations who are responsible for the terrorist attacks. This includes holding banks accountable for any help they give to terrorist organizations by sheltering money for them.

We make absolute sure that we do not do anything to destabilize any countries that have governments who are friendly to us or who are willing to help us.

We learn to work with other countries as equals instead of acting like a father figure to them and treating them like children.

If there is anything that is going to save the US, it will be for us to learn that we need the rest of the world, and we need their help as much as they need ours. If we fail to learn this lesson, I fear that we are in very big trouble.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM

Have no fear. General Custer is in charge.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 PM

I hate to admit it but the actual scoudrel Custer is an ancestor of mine. The only thing that is the same between us is the hair. Gene Hackman is a cousin of mine so the next time you see him realize he is related to Custer as well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:35 PM

Well put, Carol. And Donue: thanks for trying to lighten things up. InOBU, McGrath, MaryMac and Sailor Jack still talkin' sense.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction... The chain reaction of evil -- hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness of annihilation.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Harry Whatsizname in Asimov's Foundation books:

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

--seed

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:44 PM

The angry man full of rage only knows the pain and the memory of life without it. There are no shades of gray for him nor should there be. He is a 2 dimensional line between good and bad, pain and memories pleasure.

The killer is cool calm and collected able to plan his next move in the 4 dimensions of time place and cunning method of operation.

The pacifist feels all the anger and pain of the 2 dimensional man but rises above just enough to live in a real 3 dimensional world and sees the alternatives beyond the straight lines of bullets bombs and missles.

Although all are hurt and scared by the killer, all people of all dimensions must work together to catch the killer.

Don Hakman 2001

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM

Don, Ok.. what political actions would you take. It is easy to say, but harder to define what actions to take. Please explain further what you would do. You have stated the obvious of using a global tribunal, and political means, but you are not really saying anything. What would you do politically? That is the question.

CarolC: Well put, however, I do have some things I wish to take issue with. We have tried to get a coalition of other nations. We have that coalition forming, and more countries are backing the US now than they did in Desert Storm. Working together with these countries we do what? Threaten Switzerland if they do not freeze suspected assets? What do we threaten them with? Can they retaliate by freezing our assets? It seems that it would change from a military action to an economic war. Sanctions have backfired, look at Iraq. Bribe countries to give up their terrorists? Might work, or we might give an influx of money to a country that will use those funds to support another bombing. Economic attacks through banks, embargo's, and diplomatic isolation can destabilize a country as bad as an all out military assault. I want to believe there is a peaceful avenue, but I fear that this will not be.

Just in general: I hope that if there is anything this country has learned, it is to change how we deal with our percieved enemies. Remember, WE created Bin Ladin. We founded and trained him to fight against the Soviets. We are not in a Frankenstien situation. How to destroy the monster that we had a hand in creating? And most importantly how to avoid doing so again. People seem to think that if we go to war, we will go in with conventional methods. I don't think that is going to be the case. I think we will at times, but I think behind the scenes will be the most frightning part of this war. The men and women who are out there, quietly waiting for thier target. Who, no matter what we call them, CIA, SAS, SNA they are still assassins. Truth is, I fully expect most of the fighting will be done quietly, and out of the public eye. Do I fear retaliation, God yes I do. I live a very short distance from a major target. The command center in Florida is a scary place to be anywhere near right now. My wife told me today that a car not 30 minutes from our house was found, loaded with explosives. Am I scared of military action, yes because I know I am near a retaliation target. But, right now, I am wanting to hear a peaceful answer that I cannot find holes in.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM

It is said I have not said anything. If you believe that to be true any further discussion is moot. If any meaningful political resolution could have been explored it too will be moot once the first corpse of America's revenge is televised throughout the world. Don Hakman

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

seed,

The Asimov quote is from "Foundation" and is made by Salvor Hardin. You are thinking of Harry Seldon, another character in the series.

How's that for useless trivia. (I was going to let troll make the correction as useless trivia is one of the few things he's good at. But any chance to spoil his fun......)

Regards

John

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Sorry you feel that way Don. I only asked for you to expand on vague concepts that you laid out. Political action... ok What political action? You have painted a good picture of what could work... but not how to get there. I guess that is what I want to hear, how would you go about getting us from where we are to where you are wanting to be. How would you get this tribunal, who would be on it, what rules would they follow? All legitimate questions. if you answer or not is up to you.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:40 PM

I am not sure if characterizing the Muslim fundamentalist?s attitude as hate is entirely correct. (at least as a primary basis of motivation). While it is certainly there, there is a much stronger element of divinely inspired self-righteousness that has to be considered. How to change the absolute and dispassionate conviction of being morally and spiritually correct (that drives the hate and violence) is a conundrum that remains un-answered.

When a pacific response to something like the WTC attack is seen by the attackers as both a sign of weakness and as a validation of their belief in the moral and spiritual decay and decadence of America , then Dr. Kings? somewhat two-dimensional solution is unsatisfying as any kind of answer.

We may well be in a ?damned if you do, damned if you don?t? quagmire. At a minimum, we?re up to our arse in mud already. As such, we need to proceed carefully. At what point do we say: No more! Clearly we have a clash of multiple values: religious, ethnic, economic, cultural and historic. Some (perhaps many) of which are mutually exclusive. Reducing the complex issues to a Kings mantra may be emotionally soothing but seems realistically overly simplistic. What values, if any, should we be unwilling to compromise on? Do we pursue non-violence to the exclusion of all other principles? Is it enough that we hold out violence as a last, regrettable, resort to defend those values that are basic?

Regards

John

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

Skeptic, glad you were able to answer the "Foundation" question.
As for spoiling my fun, I really don't mind.
You have so few opportunities as it is.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

just a nobody. both Skeptic and I are in Florida. Gainesville to be precise. PM me and let me know where you are.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:06 AM

Just a nobody.

Yeah. Go ahead. PM troll. But think long and hard before you do. Remember, you have a choice. I, thanks to my mother and father, never got one. And by the time I was old enough to suggest we put him up for adoption (well, truth to tell I suggested abandoning him at the local landfill - pollution laws were much less strict in those days), it was too late. Bythen they had too much invested in him. Besides even Mother Theresa would have sent him back. So choose carefully and wisely. :-)

troll,

Oh, I have plenty of opportunities. But I don't act on them. Mostly out of pity and because of the repeated pleas from our mother to humor you. I think her exact words were "In the name of heaven ,just humor him so I don't have to lisrten to him whine".

You notice how polite I was when you screwed up about Somalia. Did I rub it in? I think not. Did I publically humiliate you? No!. As usually, these little acts of undeserved kindness and charity went totally unappreciated.

BTW, Hope you can get some sleep tonight. Hope I can as I gotta go in and push papers tomorrow.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM

Guest: Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas.
At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like.

Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

The entire middle section of the prior post did not appear??? I do not know how this occured. Here is some of what was missing but it is late and a waste of time.

crossover comunication between the CIA..... If G5 cannot get appropriate UN support-- go to the Hague and establish a brand new Global terrorist tribunal. Islamic judges are essential here. With facts from interpole Q eschelon and US agencies incictments can be handed down to prosecute. -more missing- New weapons can be employed without knowledge. -more missing- Choose your seasons well...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

Again 4 essential paragraphs are all missing . I think use of the smaller than symbol is to blame.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:50 AM

GUEST, Just a nobody,

The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is that at this moment in history, perhaps more than any other moment in history, we not only have the compassion and sympathy of much of the rest of the world, we also have their empathy. By that, I mean that they can, probably for the first time ever, see themselves in our shoes. This is very critical, and should not be wasted.

Because of this, they will very probably be willing to work with us and help us, as long as what we propose to do helps all of us. Most other countries probably won't have the burning desire or need for retribution that we have here. Most of them will probably be interested in solving the problem of terrorism, and no more. If we use our military might in a way that destabilizes countries that are crucial to this effort, at least one of which has nuclear weapons (Pakistan), the other countries in the coalition will probably recognize that they will not be helped in the long run by these military actions, that they may, in fact be hurt, and may remove themselves from the coalition.

I did a research paper about a year ago to find out what is the most powerful motivator for people. This was not research that originated with me. I was researching work that was done by others. What I found was that the most powerful motivator is what I would call "enlightened self-interest". By that I mean, people are motivated the most powerfully, and in the most lasting way when they understand how it is in their best interest to behave in a certain way. But what makes it enlightened self interest is the understanding of how what is in their best interest is also in the best interest of others. So, obviously I'm not talking about extortion. I mean people are motivated most powerfully by what is genuinely in their best interest.

If the US says, "You must do what we want or you will suffer in some way", that would be extortion. If we say, "We must work together to find a way to solve this problem in such a way that we all benefit", that would be motivating people through the use of enlightened self-interest.

Once we have built a coalition of willing participants that is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest, we determine what the benefits will be for all of the members of the coalition. The most obvious would be to protect all of us from terrorism. Even the banks will probably suffer in the long run if terrorism is allowed to destroy the economies of many of the richest nations on earth. So, even for the banks, there is an element of enlightened self-interest in helping to eliminate terrorism. In fact, it seems to me that there are probably very few groups, nations, or other interests who would benefit in the long run from allowing terrorism to continue or to flourish in the world.

If we put together such a coalition, we will need to identify what sort of actions would be detrimental to any of the members in the long run. One example of this would be if we caused, through military action in Afghanistan, destabilization in Pakistan resulting in an overthrow of the government now in place which is friendly to us at this time, by Muslim fundamentalists who are friendly with the Taliban. This, of course would be contrary to Pakistan's self-interest (as defined by the majority of people there at this time, which would likely change if we killed a lot of Afghanis), and it would also be contrary to our self-interest, because we would then have two enemies in the place of one, and one of them with nuclear weapons.

You see where I'm going with this. So we form a solid coalition. We work with the coalition as equals, rather than as an authority figure who says, "you're either for us or against us". Then, we put together the best minds that each of the countries in the coalition have at their disposal and formulate plans to use the tools at our disposal to find out who the terrorists are, and how leverage might be applied to dry up whatever resources they have to help them accomplish what they are trying to do. And whenever it is possible, try to take into custody important figures within the terrorist organizations only if doing so does not put any member/countries of the coalition in jeopardy in any significant way.

It seems to me that the most important thing we can do to the terrorists is to remove their sting. Even if they are still walking the streets, if they are perceived as ineffectual and weak by the starry eyed youths whom they would want to recruit, would anyone want to join them, much less give up their life for them? Take away the glory and there is no point in any of it. We don't take away the glory by killing them or making them glorified prisoners. We take away the glory by making them ineffectual.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 07:53 AM

If we can only kill that medicine man in that cave somewhere out in the badlands on the other side of the mountain, that will stop the man next door who admires him from burning my house down.

I'm not sure even General Custer would have bought that one.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM

I'll try a 4th time Guest: Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA,FBI,IN,NSA,CC,DOD and others . Recruit the talent you need in cyber and cultural areas that was not available or willing to help us before the attack. Set them apart from in house pros and give them a progect similar in scope to WWII code breaking. Use time and sympathy of the International community well. There will be plenty of time through December and January for support to grow. Learn from the mistakes of the Gulf of Tokin resolution and get Congress to ask the hard questions as soon as possible. Blank checks are for blind policy. Appropriate with insight. In forming an international tribunal if the UN will not unaminously support a G5 request form a brand new tribunal consisting of Islmaic judges and near complete international representation , the obvious missing judges would be Isreal , India and perhaps even the US . IF a perception of a puppet or Kangaroo court occurs having the US publicly get denied select outrageous and reasonable requests should solve that. Go to the Hague or Nuremberg if we have to and set it up there. Based on the intelligence from the US ,interpole and others present the case for 2 years or more handing down public indictments that would not jeopardize the covert operations of sensitive secret indictments. As in magic , misdirection will be an advantage to get the terrorists not mentioned in the public indictments. If there is an international array of enforcment volunteers make sure they have clear cut warrants and single targets to capture. Make sure Islams know of bounties for certain indictments handed down so even a single modest man could be instrumental in handing over a terrorist. Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like. Fomenting additional hatred between various branches of Islam is not to our advantage here for many reasons.

Of course there are new weapons that can be used without knowledge to the outside world. Many of these as I will call them vibrational weapons are nearly non leathal and can be used with much stealth. Enough said.

Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late since after our rolling thunder air raid any number of crimes could be alleged against the US true or not

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 09:01 AM

9/22/01

Dear Friends,

The drive across New Jersey has been the longest portion of this trip across America. It is only 60 miles to New York City and I am having trouble keeping my eyes open. I had just pulled off the road in Allentown, PA, to throw some cold water in my face. Kathleen and I have grown very silent. It is the dread of what is ahead.

As we cross the George Washington Bridge into Manhattan, the plume of smoke from the lower part of the island hovers, bright blasting searchlights attempting to crash through it. The college radio station from Fordham is playing Dylan's "A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall."

Instead of making the turn south to go home down the West Side Highway, I go north and head toward the town where our daughter goes to college. It is one in the morning, and when we arrive on campus we note that every single light in the dorms is on (when do these kids sleep?).

We call Natalie and tell her we have made it home. She directs us to the nearest gate where she is with some other young women who are working on the school paper. We pull up, she comes out... and this is, as it always has been, the happiest moment of our lives. We hug her, and hug her again. She is happy to see us, and she generously, good-naturedly, tolerates our weepy parental doting. She is, after all, the only reason we have made this drive. Nothing else matters at this point.

We eventually leave her to her own life and head toward New York City. It is now deep in the middle of the night and the radio plays "O Superman" by Laurie Anderson ("Here come the planes - - they're American planes!... hold me in your arms... your military arms...") and then the DJ says that he is going to play a song that they have never let him play before on the station. What an odd thing to announce, I think, considering we live in a free country where you can play whatever music you damn well please.

I recall the email I received the night before from a radio station manager in Michigan. He passed on to me a confidential memo from the radio conglomerate that owns his station: Clear Channel, the company that has bought up 1,200 stations altogether -- 247 of them in the nation's 250 largest radio markets -- and that not only dominates the Top 40 format, but controls 60% of all rock-radio listening.

The company has ordered its stations not to play a list of 150 songs during this "national emergency." The list, incredibly, includes "Bridge Over Troubled Water," "Peace Train," and John Lennon's "Imagine." Rah-rah war songs, though, are OK.

And then there was this troubling instruction: "No songs by Rage Against the Machine should be aired." The entire works of a band are banned? Is this the freedom we fight for? Or does this sound like one of those repressive dictatorships we are told is our new enemy?

The song the college DJ goes ahead and plays is, "Hey, War Pig," by Katrina and the Waves, and he dedicates it to the "all the war mongers out there." Yes, there is hope, the kids are all right.

We arrive at our apartment building and I am too tired to drop the vehicle off at the rental car place, so we unload, head upstairs, and hit the sack.

I awake at noon. A horrible stench has filled the apartment. I did not notice it a few hours earlier, but the winds have shifted. It is the odor others had warned me about. It is a smell I have never smelled. I am told by someone in the building that it is a combination of chemicals, rubber, sheetrock, and... he pauses. He does not want to list the final ingredient, and I do not want him to.

I thank him and go back upstairs and close all the windows. I look at the cereal box I had left half-opened before our trip to L.A. I stare at this box for a long time. Nine days of ash has descended on the city. It is everywhere, microscopic, invisible, non-discriminatory in where it has landed. No part of the city is untouched, and all are treated equally to the smoke and stench, regardless of station in life. There is no way to turn away and ignore it.

I take the rental car back. As I park it, I look across the street and see our neighborhood firehouse consumed in flowers and candles. "They lost nine firemen," the rental woman tells me. "It's a pretty sad place."

There's a firehouse every few blocks in New York. Back in Michigan, I grew up across the street from a fire station and I have always loved the sound of that screeching siren. The (mostly) men who work down the street from us now in New York are our neighbors in the truest sense of the word.

They are quintessential New Yorkers, right to the bone, and when they are called to do their job (for which they are grossly underpaid), they never stop for a moment to think of themselves. I always enjoy shooting the breeze with these guys, and when possible, I've put them on my show, as they are natural-born comedians and wiseguys. I have never once complained about the wail of their fire trucks as they barrel down my street.

I walk across the street to pay my respects. A lone fireman spots me coming and approaches me, arms outstretched. He grabs me and hugs me. He says, "Mike, thanks, thanks for everything you do for the..." I am stunned and embarrassed by this, and I cut him off. "Stop," I say, "I haven't done shit. I am here to thank you and to tell you how horribly sorry I am..." He cuts me off. "Shutupwillya! Lemme say what I need to say..."

He continues to thank me, I can't take this -- I HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT RETURN A DAMN RENTAL CAR -- and I break down in tears. "Oh, don't go gettin' mushy on me, Mike -- c'mon, we're Irish!" He laughs, I laugh, I grab him and hold him and these two big Irish lugs and crybabies make for quite a sight in the middle of a Manhattan street. Kathleen and I sign their book and we take down the name of the fund for the nine families of our neighbors. "Don't forget," our fireman friend says as we leave, "We need your prayers more than we need the donations."

I cannot go to work. But I have a film to finish. Our editor has been unable to make it in from New Jersey, but he is there now waiting for some word on what to do. I can't even think about this movie. I don't WANT to think about it because if I think about it I will have to face an ugly truth that has been gnawing through my head...

This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?

My wife does not want to go down to the memorial to the victims that has spontaneously taken over Union Square in the Village -- she is still in too much shock having returned to this sullen city -- but she encourages me to go, and I do.

The Square is filled with hundreds of people. But, more importantly, the walls and fences around Union Square are covered in a blizzard of "MISSING" posters of loved ones. Thousands of handbills, flyers, photos, notes -- all pleading to contact them should anyone know the whereabouts of their mother, father, son, daughter, infant.

Yet, all of us who stare at these faces, we know their "whereabouts." And the smoke, the ash, the odor is much thicker down here, just 20 blocks from The Site. The faces of the victims, culled from wedding photos, birthday party home videos, vacation snapshots, are striking in their diversity. Easily, the majority are African-American, Arabic, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish.

Their jobs at the World Trade Center are listed. They were clerks, secretaries, janitors, security guards, assistants, dishwashers, waitresses, receptionists -- all the people who HAVE to be at work first thing in the morning, the lower wage workers. The wall is also filled with the faces of brokers, lawyers, managers, accountants, insurance agents -- it is endless, it is everyone, it is America.

I am told that there may be over 500 "illegals" -- those less-than-minimum wage workers that the commerce of America depends on -- who are also among the dead, but there are no photos of them. Citizens from over 80 countries are victims of this attack and, remarkably, the country that seems to have the most people who were killed is the Muslim country of Pakistan.

For two hours I walk through Union Square, listening to the debates that rage in various small circles, between hippies and Army guys, Israelis and Palestinians, those for war and those against. They are heated, passionate -- but never do I sense the threat of violence between them. No police are in sight. "We are self-policed," one kid tells me. Others are singing or rapping, many are quietly crying.

I leave and go down to Canal Street. It is as far as they will allow civilians to go. The odor is now nearly unbearable. I tell the officer I would like to volunteer, to do anything that is needed -- carry buckets, lift, haul, relieve, whatever. He tells me that no more volunteers are needed. He says that, right now, they do not expect to find anyone alive.

The job they are doing is one of recovery of the dead and the removal of all the steel and concrete, and they have left these jobs to the professionals. I can't help but think they could still use an extra pair of hands -- surely, at least ONE person could still be alive! I remain upset and appalled that Wall Street has ordered its employees back to work -- to trade stocks! -- next-door to a mass, open graveyard of yet unburied bodies. How cruel is this to the workers who must walk by, or to the dead who are treated to this sacrilege? And, in my mind, what IF someone was still down there alive? How can you be running around a stock market floor when you should be on your hands and knees digging out the possible survivors? I just don't get it...

As I sit here in the early morning hours of Saturday, September 22, 2001, I cannot untangle much of the past 24 hours. I am exhausted from the trip, from all that has hit me upon returning to New York. I have to unpack eventually. What was it exactly I had packed all these bags for in the first place? Oh, yeah, The Emmys in L.A! Big friggin' deal now, eh? I tick off the list of everything that no longer matters.

I watch Bush speak in front of Congress, but I cannot answer him right now, I am tired. The mayor has drastically upped the death toll. My phone rings off the ... whatever phones ring off of these days. Calls from the BBC, CBC, Canal+, ABC (Australia), Swedish TV, Dutch TV -- all want me to appear live on their national primetime newscasts. Not a single American network has called.

Frankly, I don't want to be on anybody's TV show no matter where they are from, but I cannot help but feel this sinking feeling in my gut that the rest of the world wants to hear what I have to say, yet in my own country, I am to have no voice in the media (other than through these letters on the Web). This is MY country. I love MY country. Every channel and it's the same damn repetitive drumbeat WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR...

And yet, I have just driven 2,944 miles, a drive that began on the corner of Wilshire and the Pacific Ocean in Santa Monica, California. I have heard the voices of the scores of fellow Americans I met, the average Joes and Janes, who are NOT screaming WAR WAR WAR! Why can't their voices be heard?

Forget about me, I can barely utter a sentence anyway; I don't wanna go on no TV. But where is Noam Chomsky, or Howard Zinn, or the editors of "The Nation" or "Tikkun" or "The Progressive" or the thousands of college kids who protested at noon on Thursday on 148 American campuses? Don't they count? Is this still the America we believe in, the one we are being asked to defend?

Coming home tonight, I noticed a strange sound in the city. I did not hear a single car horn being honked! I have never heard that sound in New York City. No one was yelling, it was quiet and peaceful.

I called my dad on my cell phone. He tells me of things getting even worse back home in Flint, the city now bankrupt, the state preparing to take it over. The fire department has had to lay off over 50% of its firefighters. Fires now are just allowed to burn because they have neither the trucks nor the people left to fight them.

Then he said, "Mike, that guy you call 'The Boss' -- he's singing right now on TV!" The nationwide telethon for the September 11th victims has started. I could hear Bruce Springsteen singing in the background. My father (bless him and his Big Band soul at the age of 80!) knows how much I love Bruce and says, "let me hold the phone up close to the set so you can hear him," and he does, and I hear Springsteen sing these haunting words: "My city is in ruins, my city is in ruins... c'mon, rise up!"

I love my dad and my mom, my sisters, my wife and my daughter, and I am grateful for this life and for the privilege I've been given to live it with all of them. I come upstairs and Kathleen and I watch the rest of the telethon. Neil Young appears at one point, alone at the piano, and he does not sing one of his own songs. Rather, he sings the banned "Imagine." The Walrus had to have loved that one from where he was watching!

My wife looks over at me. The tears won't leave my eyes. I tell her what I was told today.

"Woody (our assistant editor) saw a rescue truck going down the West Side Highway to help in the relief effort," I tell her.

"On the side of the truck, it read 'FFD.'"

The Flint Fire Department.

All the way from our home.

To our home.

It was more than either of us could bear.

Yours,

Michael Moore

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: kendall
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Guest nobody, I have not seen anything posted about us just "walking away", and all those meaningless remarks about "touchy feely" do nothing to add to your credibility. What I, and, many others, advocate is to use our F.....g heads! Remember the Neanderthals? their only weapon was a club. Then along comes Cro-Mangon with his superior intelligence, and poof, no more Neanderthals.

Any idiot can react like a friggin' slug when you pour salt on it. This calls for surgery, not Gallagher!

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:39 PM

Took me a little bit to catch back up on the posts... Sorry. Where to start...

CarolC: Very good ideas, but here is where we differ. In this situation, time is critical. We have already laid the groundwork for a coalition, but with everyday that passes there is something more that can go wrong. Sanctions, political preassure, economic and civil aid have, and are already in use. One problem with the coalition idea. You will never get all nations to join it. Just like on Mudcat, different beliefs, political ideals, even environments differ enough that a solid consensous is not possible. One weakness, sanctions (political force, monitary with holdings or whatever) have been used in the past and is one of the reasons people use to justify the attack against the US. That is the only reason that I am unsure as to the success of the coalition idea. Right now we have formed a coalition of nations that know they could be the next ones struck, or we have lightened up on enough that they will reluctantly side with us on this. That will not last long, so what do we do now? Your idea is great, but I fear the time is far too short for such things now. Perhaps if we had started this 10 or 20 years ago it would be in place now. That is if a coalition could hold itself together for that length of time as equals.

DON: Just as with Carol, how long. Right now we know that at least one other plane was supposed to have been hijacked, That means one cell is still out and about. How long before they gather back up their resources and strike again? You mention bounties. What do you suppose would happen when people start collecting those bounties? Will they be as rational as yourself and wait? Will they strike back at us quickly, or wait five years, letting us think the danger is past?

Kendell: Ahhh... but comments like 'WarMongers' add to other peoples credibility? So, I will ask you the same question, given what we know about the situation, what would you do? I'm assuming from your post that you believe that we are not using our 'F***ing' heads already. Personally I think we have used incredible restraint, while preparing to use force if needed. So what are you advocating? What have we done wrong and what do you think would fix it? So far, except from CarolC and Don I have only heard bashes against the president. So again, state your objections and point out a good way to correct.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:52 PM

Guestjust, I am disappointed your contribution was but a mere blurb of cursory responses to comprehensive outlines of policy.

For you to assume the role of a moderator you need not have an editorial of your own but to seemingly not note the insights and true nature of what is said, falls short of an engaging moderator. To question policy regarding meeting the demand that Osama has demanded the US leave its military base in Saudi Arabia would have been a good begining for you. Instead you were essentially the invisible calling the vague , transparent.

It is a sworn holy duty for Osama disciples to learn cyber and internet skills to perfection. Monitoring such thread titles as this one would not be out of the question. To imagine there are tens of thousands of such conversations as this to monitor is also probably true. Seeing that I have identified myself right down to address and phone number , just who are you ? If you hesitate to honestly reply , who do you want us to think you are?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

Point of fact about my dear friends the Neanders... I have spent a lot of time doing skulptures of Neanders, and visiting their houses, now that they are no longer home, though, I would love to have found them, by their fires in France and Spain. I have examined the injuries to their extemities that they experienced from their rather direct, most likely and guileless hunting methods. Well, the evidence does not show them to have been killed off by modern man, no evidence points to this anywhere. They did not just carry clubs, Mousterian culture had not invented the bi-valve tool, as far as we know, but they did make somewhat complex tool and seemed to apreciate some forms of symbolic representation.
I believe that what killed them off was their lack of great curiosity. They apparently lived for thousands of years in the same spots, the same family groups occupied the same caves for generations for hunderds of years. Well, it is more likely that our strenth was our highly developed immune system from travelling everywhere. We met others and developed very complicated immune systems.
Now dear frined what does this mean for those calling for war? If you sojourn out among the people's of the world, you may learn the folly of reacting like a primitive, you are hit with a club and you hit the hitter and his mother and brother. We in lower Manhatten see the folly of this thinking. Go to Isreal, see the outcome of such foolishness. Put down the club and use your head.
End the practice of anonimous banking (and posting! :-) ...) The real problem is the Cayman Islands and the Swiss, their banking systems make funding terror possible. Get out in the world, and don't think so badly of Neanders, I for one am rather fond of them, and believe they may have been much more gentle than many folks emagine.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

Don, Sorry my reply dissapointed you, I have been tied up with personal matters. My five year old was sick, my wife was on her last nerve, so I was also trying to relieve her of the responsibilities of a two month old. My response was quick because I didn't really have alot of time to respond, more just a way to refresh it and collect some thoughts.

First, I am assuming no role as a moderator, If I was I would be between two people in a debate. Instead, I am merely asking questions as to what can be done. People seemed very intent on saying we were not thinking but applying little to go along with it. I simply asked the question to clarify what people would have us do. I will look for holes in arguments, I always have. So please do not think I am some self appointed moderator.

As to the points you made. Yes very good ideas. Most of which are already in the works. Better communication between intelligence branches and better access to that information from places that need it. I can't help but think that the reason we hadn't already implemented this before is due to privacy issues. I may be wrong, but that would be a political time bomb prior to this. There is a coalition in the works, and we are trying to gain support still. I know this is not the sort of coalition that you were refering to. My concern would be with time. I don't know that you could implement a tribunal fast enough to be effective in this situation. Any group of nations rarely holds itself together for long. The UN is fairly ineffective against the US. And I am not sure why a new group would be any different. I follow your logic, but do you really think that nations can completely put aside thier culture, and environmental needs to form a conglomeration? I don't see the middle-east and the US having too many things in common. The things we take for granted, they see as luxery. What happens when there is a disagreement in this group?

My editorial... :)

While peace is prefered over war, what is the answer now? We are still reeling over the WTC blows, or economy is unstable. There was no announced provication to this attack, just as there was none with the Cole, or the embassies that had been attacked. A wait and see what they do is a dangerous game. The enemy does not announce his intentions. This is different from most terrorist action against the US. No demands had been made, no ultimatum, and no claim of responsibility. Waiting can allow other cells to sight new targets. Bin Ladin is now 'missing' so what can of damage can he do now? How long do we wait and see? If (God forbid) another attack comes, will we still wait and see? When does diplomicy end, when does an attack demand retaliation? Just as I don't think that war should be a first option, I don't think use of force should be ruled out as an option. Your ideas are sound, but I wonder how much further this will go before you would say, "Ok... now it's time to kill him, and any that harbor him?"

As I said, I am no moderator. Never claimed to be. I just get really nearvous when I am considered a War Monger because I believe that military action may be needed, and we had best be prepared.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM

The points of OB are well taken. If I may take a section of your metaphoric discussion of the Neanders, I would like to speak of them literally. I am not a genetic anthropologist but 30 years ago I saw an actual physiologic throw back of a Neander in Lackawanna NY. The brow, the nose, the body all were a dead ringer. It was so profound a sight I recall it clearly today. The individual was a ruddy caucasion in color and gentle in disposition.

I was wondering about the DNA traces of Neander in modern humans as a result of seeing this person.

A quasi related observation is that modern humans with one extra chomosome (downs syndrome) are the most gentle kind people I have ever met.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:56 PM

GUEST, Just a nobody, I have a pretty fundamental disagreement with you about in what ways time is a critical factor.

I think time is a critical factor in terms of the US getting its act together in terms of improving security and other safety measures in air travel. I think time is critical in terms of getting our intelligence agencies functioning effectively. I think time is critical in terms of any number of ways that have nothing to do with military actions.

However, I think, and I believe that prior experience bears this out, that with regard to the use of force, hasty action in a situation like this one only causes more problems than it solves in the long run.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

The best thing I've read on this thread is the suggestion that Donuel, who obviously sees himself as the 21st Century's Groucho Marx, and Larry get together for a drink.

Just one serious comment, actually a question. Carol: you seem to be hung up on the word "hasty." You've used it in several posts if I remember correctly. Does that mean you would not object to force, should the administration deem it necessary, if it was not done in haste?

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:55 AM

These are the conditions under which I, personally, would consider the possibility of the use of force...

1. That, once having formed a coalition with as many countries as possible, there is unanimous agreement on the use of force. In the absense of a coalition, that force is only used if all of our allies agree to it.

2. That any use of force is directed by either the UN, or a body appointed by the coalition consisting of members from all of the nations within the coalition.

3. That all other options have been exhausted prior to resorting to the use of force.

4. That force is only used if it will not cause the destabilization of any country that has a government who is friendly to us or who is willing to help us.

5. That force is used only for strategic purposes, and not in order to demonstrate the superiority of the US over any other nation.

6. That only the absolute minimum amount of force needed to accomplish the goal is used.

7. That the use of force will not set in motion any events that will cause more problems for us in the long run.

8. That the use of force is only for the purpose helping to solve the problem of terrorism, and not for any other purposes (such as to promote a particular political system, or in order to give certain industries a boost)

There may be others, but that's what comes to mind right now.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:56 AM

Also, that it would not be for the purpose of retribution, revenge, to make an example of anyone, or to teach anyone a lesson.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM

Well thought and well stated CarolC... after this "war" has defined President Bush's first four years in office, and the funds to maintain it have dug deep into the purse of the American consumer -

In 2004 the candidates running against Bush would do well to adopt your criteria as the platform for when the use of force is acceptable.

Or, perhaps...if you had political aspirations of your own? Being President is a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

Here's a blast from the past: What if they gave a war and nobody came?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM

One of the political actions that must be taken is to help unite the Muslim community worldwide in their rejection of the perversion of their religion. This is crucial.

Rather than deal with the concept of vague "terrorism", it would be better to identify the malevolent perverts of Islam and to keep them from destroying this faith.

Bin Laden lays claim to a "moral imperative" which can be unmasked for the violent and crude ascension of political power that it is. It's time for the Muslim community to reclaim their faith and turn their backs on those who would desecrate their religion.

Hitler did the same thing to pervert socialism. Bin Laden and his followers are doing it to Islam.

This is a contest of competing ideologies which make the use of weaponry impotent. Unmasking the perverts of Islam is the real target.

Bin Laden and followers are harboring a form of insanity. Ultimately, they can't win because their victory of intimidation and repression is unlivable. The wisdom of women who are imprisoned beneath their burquas is a potential political force. Their victimization can be turned into action.

Frank

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:14 AM

Too late GUEST. One side is already here and the first shot has been fired. (Actually, it was fired at the Marine Barracks in Lebanon but poetic license and all that...)

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

Bush let the word CRUSADE slip out of his mouth. 'Loony bin' Laden latched onto it and is not letting go. A crusade or fatwa would supply the ongoing recruits Laden hopes for. IT does not seem that this is going to ahppen as he desired. There are many goals to accomplish but to meet a loon's crusade with a crusade to match is to be discouraged. Whatever discension from within we will welcome if it is men, women or children. My wife tells me that Mohammad was pushed by his wife to establish Islam. Perhaps women will help restor it to sanity. I have never read the Koran but I am sure there are lofty goals that are compatible with this century. Here are some obvious goals we can agree upon.

Freedom from want for everyone anywhere in the world is a lofty goal. Freedom of speech and expression for everyone in the world is an honest goal. Freedom for anyone to worship as they please anywhere in the world is a desireable goal although some religious dogma has a built in destruct mechanisms. To be free from fear anywhere in the world is our current goal.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:48 AM

Wrong-o don. Bin Laden used the phrase "Israeli- Crusade in his 1996 "Ladenist Epistle". Bush's use of the word is unfortunate but the terrorists were already using it to get recruits in '96.Click here scroll down to the picture of bin Laden and go from there.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

Troll , the reference was made to the word crusade in Laden's letters that were received yesterday. Hmm now what else was wrong, oh yes I said something about a multi faceted front when what I was searching for was an analogy that would fit such as "never attack Russia in the winter".

How do we recieve Loony bin Laden letters, by FAX?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Osama bin Laden
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:26 PM

Greetings from my cave,

We take great comfort in knowing that you some of you Americans hate each other much more than you hate us. That's why it's so easy to send our martyrs to kill you all.

ObL

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM

I saw the shock in Bush's eyes when he heard himself say the word Crusade ,as if he was told over and over to not say the word Crusade. Do not think of a pink elephant for that regard.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

CarolC: Those are well thought out, well stated, position points. I suspect you will, in fact, be disappointed because I don't believe the plan you map out will be followed. You certainly put a lot of thought in your reply to me, and I appreciate it.

Maybe we ARE seeing the launching of a political career, as Guest suggests!

I, for one, would not want to see the United States turn over it's security to any UN command, but if you are comfortable with that, so be it. The terrorist attack was not directed at the UN, it was directed at America. They could have hit the UN building rather than the WTC or the Pentagon had they chosen to do so. They didn't.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

If we want the world to fight this war on terrorism with us, we need to make sure that the 'war' is administered by the same world. We cannot do it by ourselves if we want to keep a coalition. But I suspect you are probably right that my criteria will not be followed. However, I never expected that they would be. I was just answering a question.

As far as running for political office is concerned, I seriously doubt that would be possible. For one thing, I'm way too short. And I really hate to lie.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:09 PM

You're also not nearly rich enough, Carol. Monetarily speaking, that is...

And you're female.

Ain't a dog's chance in hell that the Redemocrapublicants would take a chance on you for a presidential candidate. Neither of 'em would.

- LH

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:28 PM

Well that's a relief, LH ;-)

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

L.H. How insensitive of you! First you insult rich folks (she could never be elected without them) and then you insult women! The latter is the most serious of course. You're a brave man Little Hawk.

CarolC: the world is not going to administer the war against terriorism. Terriorism didn't JUST happen, as you know. It has been a part of the world for a long time. When it hit the United States (it had before but it wasn't in the United States so everybody wrung their hands but did nothing because it was not on U.S. soil) it became real to Americans and it was the "last straw."

Who has the money to defeat the terrorists? Who has the manpower, technology, and equipment to do it? Who can organize the consortium that will make it possible? (Never mind why) Who has the will? If you answer any country other than the U. S., then ...I guess we will have something else to talk about.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM

Carol, Even if you did run they would simply attack your spouse. Remember Ferraro? (not that Ferraro was a great statesman to begin with)

I heard some talk of a tribunal by Rumsfeld . Combined with the coalition suggested here it looks like the administration was reading this thread :-)

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM

This last attack on the WTC was hardly our first experience with terrorism on our own soil, or against our citizens or property on foriegn soil. Our response to these attacks in the past has not been to just wring our hands. Our response in the past has been to drop a few bombs on someone. And the result of these responses has not been an end to terrorism. It has been that the attacks have increased in severity.

And my answer to your last paragraph is not the US. My answer is that no nation can do such a thing alone. We can only do it with the help of most of the rest of the world. And they with us. What has changed hasn't been just the fact that the US was bombed. What has changed is that much of the rest of the world sees themselves in our tragedy, and they have the same desire to solve the problem as we do. They understand, as some of us in the US do, that we have to do this together if we want it to get done.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM

Well, Donuel, first I would need to have a spouse for them to attack. ;-)

(...but I'm still not running)

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

AMERICA NEEDS A "DATING" CANDIDATE (that is not already married - what a switch)
That is PR you can not buy ;-)

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:13 PM

*G*

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:03 AM

True, Carol, there was the attack on the WTC in 1993.

I wonder why there was no effort at that time to build a coalition, and a declaration of war against terrorism launched? The only time I remember missiles being launched was when Clinton got his hand caught in the "cookie jar," so to speak.

Your post above, I assume, is intended as a reply to my post of 10:43 P.M. If so it obviously impressed Donuel, but it seems pretty general to me. I don't see any definitive answers to the questions posed in my last paragraph.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:17 AM

Sorry DougR. It's the best I can do tonight. I think the reason things are different this time is because it's the first time that we actually have no other choice.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:32 AM

Actually, though, DougR, I think maybe it's your turn to back up your assertions with some credible documentation. You have said that the only time missiles were launched was when Clinton got his hand caught in the cookie jar. That sounds like an editorial statement to me.

My recollection is that missiles were launched by Clinton after a plot to kill President Bush was uncovered, after the first bombing of the WTC, and also after the bombings of the embassies.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Yes, you are correct, CarolC, I was editorializing and that was not a fair thing to do. I'm sure you are correct.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM

All the people on the PA hijacking will be getting Congressional medals of honor, just as I had hoped.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

More war strategies:

Since we can not write our hate and anger on a piece of ice and wait for the sun to melt it , or wait for an all inclusive global tribunal to educate the world and legitimize all actions as much as possible . The racist terrorists that want our destruction ,as Bush said 'verbatim' today, "have misunderestimateded the United States of America".

I do not underestimate the brazen foolishness of GW. In fact....

I do not think this conflict will remain conventional.

Everyone turned up the volume today. Bush said he wanted bin Laden's blood. The Italian president claimed Western culture is superior to Islamic culture and they deserve to be destroyed. Almost all Pakistanis are said to believe Isreal did the WTC attack to provoke the US to attack Islam in their behalf.

Once one Arab is felled by a US bullet Arabs will claim it to be thousands. Fatwa will ensue no matter what the facts are or how careful the US will try to be. Against the ever increasing waves of zealots the use of US nuclear weapons will seem no more provovative that what we will already be facing. Perhaps this will happen right after another domestic attack against the US.

This will be reason enough to expect terrorism into the future for as long as Jews and Arabs have already been at war. (a verry long time)

Unless there is a miracle of diplomacy... ?

The nukes may be strategic neutron or tiny one kiloton versions to start. After all, China and Pakistan will be watching for a big one.

It sounds like Bush has already put nukes on the table. Anyone willing to say he won't use them within the year? Or do you think he will heed Rumsfeld's advice which is the kind of caution I have been talking about?

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 PM

Since we have no idea what bin Laden & Co. will do next , thus setting up a totally new equation to be solved, NO BET!

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

Sometimes I wish they had sent one tiny little kiloton into that national convention of the Taliban last week.

But that's just when i'm feeling mad about the images of valuable working productive people jumping out of buildings unnecessarily...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM

Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

All-Out US Assault Hawks Forced To Retreat By Richard Norton-Taylor The Guardian - London 9-27-1

A day after the terrorist attacks on the US, senior defence sources were predicting a massive attack on Afghanistan, including missile strikes and ground troops. A contingency plan had been dusted off, they said, involving "the cooperation of surrounding countries to the north of Afghanistan". A few days later, the sources were not so sure. There was an argument in Washington, they said, between the hawks and the doves, between those pressing for an immediate assault on Afghanistan - and possibly Iraq as well - and those urging caution, proposing a careful, "intelligence-led" military operation. As the days passed with no military action, it became clear that the hawks - led by Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz - had been convinced by the doves, led by Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, supported by Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser. Their strongest argument was the need to build as broad an international coalition as possible in what Mr Bush's advisers and Washington spokesmen increasingly described as a long-term "war on terrorism". Mr Powell, a former chief of the US armed forces, was also well aware of the dangers of sending in ground troops and the ineffectiveness of ill-considered air strikes. "We were bouncing rubble with billion-dollar missiles," he said after the 1991 Gulf war. He was also well aware of the futility of firing a few cruise missiles at a number of Bin Laden training camps in south-east Afghanistan - the tactic adopted by President Clinton following the attacks on US embassies in east Africa in 1998. The military options are reflecting political and diplomatic priorities - in London as well as Washington - and what defence sources call the need to achieve "outcomes". The first is to try to find Bin Laden and his circle in Afghanistan. That relies on good intelligence, from spy satellites but also from the ground. The only people who can do this - apart from the unlikely presence of spies in Bin Laden's camp - are special forces. The SAS and US special forces, notably its Delta Force, will play a potentially crucial role in the forthcoming military campaign. Good intelligence is also the key to avoiding civilian casualties. Special forces can guide pilots to fixed targets and report the movement of people. The SAS - which in the 1980s was heavily involved with the mojahedin of what is now the Northern Alliance, may well be benefiting from its help now. However, the alliance, supported by Russia, is strongly opposed by Pakistan, whose discreet intelligence help US and British forces need and are almost certainly already getting. Military planners, as well as diplomats, are extremely sensitive to the need to avoid exacerbating relations between Russia and Pakistan. There is little doubt that military operations in Afghanistan will involve air strikes against Bin Laden camps and the Taliban's military bases. They are also likely to precede the deployment of hundreds of US - and possibly British - airborne troops whose job could be to hold such bases as Bagram airport north of Kabul.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM

Watch it, fella! Us trolls resent your implication. Any more posts like that and we'll have the Troll Anti-Defamation League come and ... well, you won't like it, what we'll do.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM

I have just been advised by the TADL's law firm, Over, andover, and Dover, to retract the last part of the third sentence of the last post to wit: "well, you won't like it, what we'll do."
I hereby retract it.

troll ***don't see why I can't say it. It's the truth. Turn over his house or his car. Teach him to diss us trolls. mumble, mumble, gripe.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM

"S okay, troll -- we already don't like it!!

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM

Donuel: are you sure all of the folks are going to receive Congressional Medals of Honor? I sort of doubt that, but I'd be interested in seeing your source.

Maybe a Congressional Medal of Freedom or something like that, but the Congressional Medal of Honor is presented to those who perform extraordinary deeds of herorism in battle. I could be wrong, but I don't think a civilian has ever been awarded one.

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:29 AM

Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls.

--Donuel

The whole 'free speech' thing notwithstanding, I do think there is a big difference between saying something because it's worth saying, and saying something just because you can.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

The statement by the Italian foreign minister is said to have been a translation mistake by a German translator.

The medal of honor* thing , I heard on one of the 3 CNN stations I leave on throughout the day. Also any veteran hurt or killed in the attacks is getting the purple heart.

I had been hoping the PA hijacking heros would get recognition so when my ear latched onto the report that is what I heard*.?.

As an artist I paint things the way I see them. If I see trolls thats what I paint. However due to the overwhelming global support for the outstanding examples of freedom/freedom of expression the Taliban are respondisible for, let us all be P.I. and refer to the Taliban as jolly good fellows even if they do look like trolls.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:25 AM

The Taliban members do NOT resemble me in the LEAST!
They do, however resemble certain artists of my acquaintance. Potters and sculptors mostly.

troll ***BG***

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:28 AM

By the way the video image I refer to is the ruling council/congress of the Taliban all dressed alike in black robes and white turban with same length beards etc. and not the citizens. -clarification-as advised by council. Ms. Ann Thrax.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:34 AM

Do you really think their appearance has anything to do with the way the Taliban conduct themselves?

And then there's the matter of the problems that come with linking physical appearance with the behavior of one specific group of people. Let's use as an example what is happening to people of the Sikh religion who are being persecuted because they look somewhat like Muslims.

There may be people in the world who look like those members of the Taliban, who have nothing to do with the activities of the Taliban. When you make their appearance an issue, you may be putting a lot of innocent people at risk.

And then there's the problem of demonizing your enemies. I believe that is one of the things that made it possible for the hijackers to do the heinous things that they did. They had demonized those of us in the US so they would not have to think of us as humans, and in that way, they could do inhuman things to us.

You can call it PC if you want. Personally, I just think it's common sense.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:57 AM

Carol, your point is well taken but I think he was just trying to make a joke.

troll

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

Gee Carol , what do have against the characters in the Hobbitt. With only one exception , they are far from demonic. But seriously with the racist vigilanti events in the US and around the world there will be an ongoing threat to Immigrant-Arabs/semtic/Indian/Mexican/less than white skinned people... no matter how much education is directed to this tragedy. There will always be those who worship at the feet of the statue of Bigotry but I am not among them.

but the guys I saw did look like trolls. *G*

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:58 PM

Maybe I'm losing my sense of humor then. A pity if it's true. But I do think it's worth remembering that a lot of people all over the world are reading our words here in this forum, and to try to be mindful of the ways they can cause harm unnecessarily. It didn't look like humor to me, and it might not look like humor to others. And some words can cause real harm.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

Well it could offend the trolls of the world. But your speech is well-turned and well-taken, C.

In the center of balance, living in fear of others' misinterpretation is a nul principle.

Even in our own country, a lot of important publications including the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence have been grossly misunderstood. Didn't slow the authors down much.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 08:56 PM

Carol, now it sounds like you are running for office more than ever.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:12 PM

Consider what the Taliban have stood for in the past:

Requiring women to wear one restrictive form of dress and not be able to seek medical attention from male doctors.

Requiring all Muslims to worship God in one way only, because there is only one 'right' way.

Preparing legislation to require non-Muslims to wear distinctive markings.

Dynamiting the ancient works of another culture due to a misapplication of the definition of 'idol'.

And most recently:

Providing aide, comfort, and shelter to the leader of a far-flung terrorist organization which has now several times over the past few years performed deadly undiscriminating attacks against the United States and its allies.

So who is sexist, racist, and attempting to impose cultural imperialism here?

You want to demonize the bastards, be my guest.

I think when the returns are in, it will be admitted that there were comparitively few instances of discrimination per population count in the U.S. I've already witnessed dozens of instances through the media in which our attention is drawn to the need to realize the distinctions between Sikhs, Muslims, fanatics, etc.

Long before the tragic events of this month, news articles around the country have been 'preparing' us, if that is the right word, for the news that the U.S. is increasingly growing to look more like the rest of the world color-wise. This is a part of American life that I think we will grow to celebrate.

The Taliban and their ilk are indeed a sort of troll, although this is a gross insult to troll-dom and I do not wish to be politically incorrect more than necessary. They are a self-righteous, ill-informed, deadly virus, more similar in essence to the Khmer Rouge than to any other system of thought and belief. They are mired between dark ages superstition and hypocrisy. They have seized the tools of the modern world primarilly to destroy it, without accepting the principles of the world which made those tools possible. Yes, a kind of virus.

We know it's tough to kill off a virus. Sometimes you can only beat it down, but I don't know of any successful cases in which one could reason with a virus.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:43 PM

robomatic, I don't think anyone's defending the Taliban here. And I don't think it is in any way inappropriate for us to be mindful of the harm that our words can cause innocent people.

I don't think that the innocent people who have been hurt or killed (or their families) because of misplaced hatred are going to be comforted in the knowlege that their percentages are low compared to the total population.

Donuel, perhaps you would like to be my campaign manager and treasurer. How much money do you think you can raise? By the way, I'm not flying to any campaign appearances.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:02 PM

You folks have no significant disagreement. CarolC says don't demonize what they look like. Robomatic says it's okay to demonize the Taliban for what they are and do.

No problem. Similarly, you can't reason with a virus. I don't believe anyone fundamentally disputes the analogy. Many get hot to trot over the "understanding" the enemy issue. Some of us don't care what the converted zealots believe, except in the way such understanding helps to deactivate their poisonous effects. But again, there's no substantial disagreement.

On a broader scale, there is the issue of understanding who in the Muslim world might sympathize with the terrorists' abominations. The innermost circle would be the Taliban. Then there are larger circles. I think we all agree that those pools provide the sustenance for the zealots' activities: They are the source of both safe harbor and recruits for the zealots. They are the problematic source of resistance to a forced resolution. Eradication of the primary noxious agent requires understanding at those levels as well, even more than understanding of the criminals' mindsets. HOWEVER, in the larger circles we are dealing with the more civilized (less uncivilized) aspects of the problem, not the converted zealots, so the "can't reason with a virus" analogy breaks down.

We can't effectively build coalitions with the governments of Muslim nations without understanding the nature of their issues with the governed populations. They are certainly hard to fathom in many particulars. CarolC's point, which may seem small at first blush, speaks to the larger, more abstract problem.

Hope that made sense. It does at the moment.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:48 PM

This is kind of cool. Seeing my thoughts get analyzed here. I guess I don't have any fundamental disagreements with what you are saying I,hurricane, except for one thing.

It is my opinion that when we are dealing with a situation like the one that is currently unfolding on the world stage, we need to have the use of our brains so that we can make intelligent decisions, and ones that will actually help us in the long run, rather than causing more problems for us in the long run.

It is also my opinion that when we demonize anyone, regardless of what sorts of atrocities they have committed, we are engaging a part of our psyche that is driven by emotions, and is less capable of making intelligent choices than the part of our psyche that is engaged when we maintain a detached, rational thought process.

The idea is to recognise what sorts of problems we are dealing with and to find effective ways of solving them. If we get all caught up in emotions, it becomes a lot more difficult to see the problems and their solutions clearly.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM

Well, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you, CarolC, and I wouldn't try to put words in your mouth, either. I'm just trying, while sorting through all of this, to identify real disagreements that I would want to ponder further. (As if I'm not pondering enough . . . )

On that score, see the recent post in "Bush Speech II" - -discussing "War Strategy," including an article "What Bush got right - and wrong" By Daniel Pipes. It has me bothered.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

Actually, I,hurricane, I got a kick out of your analysis.

As far as the article by Daniel Pipes is concerned, I read it, and I was concerned by it also. I came very close to posting something about it then, but I didn't have the rational part of my psyche engaged at the time, so I decided it would be better for me to refrain from posting anything right away.

My take on the situation with him is that he is coming from a military perspective rather than from a diplomatic perspective. This dichotomy of perspectives seems to be a significant source of disagreement among our leaders about what needs to be done, and how best to do it.

Today, I heard a panel expert on a news program say that the military people run the risk of destroying the coalition if the approach they use is too heavy handed, but that the military people need the coalition in order to accomplish their goals. Interesting dilemma.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: heric
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM

Well, good, CarolC, I hope you can help me stay calm. I figured I was reading the hawk side of the equation that they are reporting on. What bothers me is hoping I have not been deluding myself into believing that Muslim sympathy for the bin Laudin devil cannot run deep. The coalition building, as it is being reported to date, seems to bode well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM

My guess is that most Muslims are more concerned with what is good for the world of Islam and for their fellow Muslims than they are with Bin Ladin. So my feeling is that any approach we take must differentiate between solving the problem of Bin Ladin as a source of terrorist activity, and Bin Ladin the Muslim.

My feeling is that if we focus on the fact of his being a Muslim, there will probably be more of a feeling among some Muslims that their faith needs to be defended. I suspect that if we focus on Bin Ladin as a terrorist leader, rather than as a Muslim, we would be less likely to create a situation in which Muslims would feel the need to defend their religion. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: DougR
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM

You got my vote, Carol!

DougR

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 02:10 AM

Ok, DougR. But you might have to switch your party affiliation. I'll be running as the candidate for the "Don't waste your vote on me" party. I figure I can just get a whole bunch of money for the campaign and then lose, and then I won't have to actually do anything.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 10:26 AM

It works that way , win or lose. Winning allows you to keep a larger chunk of your warchest.

There is not a need to demonize the enemy as in previous wars. It was done for us. The military jargon among grunts in the Gulf war included terms such as , sand monkey , rag head and worse. In this war actions speak louder than words.

To attribute ones cultural bias to the average illterate muslim mind is a mistake. The differences are profound. In the west we have songs like onward Christian soldiers but no commandments to kill in scripture. In Islam there is the requirement to defend ones faith in a jihad if at all possible just as a pilgrimage to Mecca is "highly" reccommended.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

Marymac and Harpgirl, you bring up a crucial point. Women are not being consulted. They need to be. (Susan Sontag had something important to say.) Belicose white men are aggravating the problem by their indiscrimiate pronouncements. I'm sick of the sports and Western movie metaphors.

Here's the problem. How much of the Muslim community wants to differentiate themselves from the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas etc? That's a tight rope.

I reiterate that there is a difference between a police action and a purely military response. The first apprehends and punishes the guilty. The latter (war) punishes the innocent along with the guilty.

An international police force is necessary to protect lives throughout the world from the fanatics who favor death. (Paradise). We, as well as other countries, must now assume the role of policemen (and women) for the benefit of the world.

There ARE people we can talk to. These are the potential followers of the Taliban, Hezbollah,etc. cults. We need to do alot of talking to the wider true Muslim community, not the perverts. Potential recruits are poor people that have been disenfranchised by neglect for their well-being by many of the world's well-heeled countries. This is true in Saudi Arabia (through the misguided Gulf War in it's quest for oil) as well as arming the Taliban to fight the Soviets. Arming the Northern Alliance will be our next mistake. We need to talk a lot to the poor people of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc. etc. and show them that our way of life is obtainable for them. We have seen the future and it works. It's called American democracy.

Bin Laden is a world criminal. There are many more. A United Nations Police Force would be one important solution. This requires a lot of talking.

The people who yell the loudest about the glory of war have probably never been in battle. It takes more than anger to survive it.

Frank

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM

With the first post in this thread I predicted the Western metaphors that were to come. Indeed I am sick of them coming from the administraton but that is who bush is. He may have never been an expert in foreign relations but he was an expert executioner to the point of grinning about it when asked.

The metaphor that has come from within us all, quite naturally, is the "viral infection" we must now overcome.

All evidence point to the fact that Powell and his group was able to convince Rumsfeld and other hawks of the folly of whoesale execution - ergo the new war we must endure.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:49 PM

I'd be a tad more conservative than Donuel about citing what "all evidence" says. Unless I were in a highly priveleged intel position.

BTW -- STARTING CHAPTER TWO OF THIS THREAD -- hold on. It'll be there shortly.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

PART TWO of this thread can be found over here.

Please use it instead of this part.

A

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 06:17 PM

I appreciate the analysis from I,Hurricane and for the most part agree. I understand the point that CarolC is making re: not reacting out of blind emotion, wreaking havoc on truly innocent people, and ultimately 'inheriting the whirlwind'. Nevertheless for me there IS a strong emotional component and to deny it would be even greater folly. I know I'm not alone in this, I'm sure we are all in the same boat here. I think Donuel is dwelling too much on 'Bush as warmonger'. I was not a fan of GWB, but he's the leader of the moment, and it is not only he making the decisions here. I saw Rumsfeld on Meet the Press this (Sunday) morning and I think he was saying the right things. I think the US has shown proper forbearance to this point in marshalling her resources and determining just where the virus is.

To a great extent we all know each other. The terrorists who have penetrated the Western countries have quite successfully been ferreting out the points they see as 'weak' which are the very items we hold precious. We are aware of the intermingling of support and responsibility in the Middle East, the 'extremist' view that has taken so much support away from the moderates. It is quite easy to throw stones at attitudes but much harder to determine the black and white amongst the shades of gray. Someone will make that determination, and the rest of the world will critique it for a hundred years. I hope for the best.

I think the US administration has made an important point, correctly that the enemy is extremism regardless of the soil from which it is sprung. That is consistent with accepting the nature of America today and to come, which is that the US is and will be a multicultural experiment in world society, distinctly different from the rest of the world in that we embrace it and design our society around it.

In a terrible kind of way, this event will reinforce the vision of what the US stands for by putting in stark contrast the awful things that we are not. We've been at a bit of a loss since winning the Cold War, and these events may demonstrate that the American mission is far from over.

I don't think Donuel's description of the cowboy movie (at the outset of this thread) is an adequate model of the situation we are facing, but it is a great metaphor, if one truly knows the range of the genre. The cowboy movie is known throughout the world, and in fact was a greater propaganda tool than anything the Soviets were ever able to come up with. If Donuel has truly seen many of these, he/she should realize there is a tremendous amount of variety among the best of them, from 'High Noon' to 'Shane', to 'Cat Ballou', to 'Little Big Man'. When one knows some of the history surrounding the actual 'Wild West' period in US history, one can appreciate that even the cowboy movie has hues and shades.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:10 AM

In lieu of finding part II I would like to pose an alternative war strategy. This thread was started before the component of biowar was thrown into the mix. At this time the US needs surprise and economy of warfare similar to that of its enemy.
Non violent means to wage a lethal war. It sounds like fiction but is more profound than you might first think. I have asked established pacifists if an ultimate weapon should be used and they say no. However when I give shape to this weapon, some have changed their mind.
For example: HAARP is a technology that heats the ionosphere and as a result can change atmospheric conditions by adding energy to weather systems. There are hundreds of links to this technology but none better than its patent statement. If we were to heat the atmosphere near Afghanistan, drawing moisture from the Arabian Sea and create snow storms 80+ feet deep upon the mountains we would bury bin laden all winter long and end the drought that Allah has seen fit to bestow upon Afghanistan.
The beauty here is that the US would not be realistically blamed for the weather but rather the natives would see it as a disapproving sign from God.
'If' it could work it would be radiation free but is not a precise "tactical" precipitation (mistakes could happen). An act of God - type weapon will still produce plenty of collateral damage stranding innocent and guilty alike. One could expect damage from eventual spring floods.
The weapon of water is fearsome and has been used in war for 1,000's of years by diverting rivers and destroying wells.
Bio war is considered a weapon of Allah as is Pakistan's atomic bomb commonly referred to as Allah's bomb. For the US to use God like weapons could be considered a symmetric response - whether or not small pox erupts in the US.
Please don't think me dark for mentioning that authorites estimate 10's of millions of US bio war deaths once contagious agents are employed. We need a response that is both devestating and more humanitarian than nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:14 AM

You can't isolate out one area for a change in the weather. If you tamper with the weather in one region of the globe, there's no telling what it will do to the weather everywhere else.

Sounds like a nice idea if it could work without having a seriously negative impact on the rest of the world, but it just can't be done. Ask a meteorologist. It's all connected.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:20 AM

It knows no borders, but neither does small pox.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:27 AM

So let's don't try to kill anybody with small pox, either.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:15 AM

About 200 tons of weaponized small pox virus has been created in the last 12 years. We made some, Russia made the most and now we are told to anticipate a release in the USA. The sin of making it is done. Now the act of using it sounds inevitable.
I was NOT speaking of the US using bio weapons. I was suggesting something entirely different...

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:46 PM

Why not use this technology where there is drought and produce some rain in order to help people? Would it work that way or is that not feasible?

- LH

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:27 PM

Russia also has this technology. During the mass fires in Indonesia and Australia they volunteered its use but the help was turned down.

Although it is tested the outcomes are still somewhat unpredictable. Yes a drought could be ended but as a result a drought may then occur elsewhere.

There is still something almost spiritual [although a tradgedy for the innocent] about defeating an enemy so evil with something as pure as a snow flake or drop of rain from the heavens. It could be a weapon of biblical proportions in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:01 PM

About the small pox, I'm having some difficulty understanding how anyone who wants victory over someone else, us or them, would think that using a contagious disease will help them get it. It's likely to cause as many problems for them as it is for us.

I'm sure, if someone did decide to use it, they would have their key people vaccinated, but it's unlikely that they would be able to have very many of the rank and file and local populace vaccinated. Certainly not in a place like Afghanistan. Or Somalia.

And every war effort depends on many people besides the officers. People who wage war depend upon many every day citizens for support. Even the kind of bio terrorism that is spreading anthrax requires massive support from ordinary citizens. Without the thousands of postal workers who keep the mail moving, there would be no way to deliver the weapon.

Using small pox could kill a lot of people in the US, but it would also kill large numbers of people throughout the rest of the world. By destroying the support systems that the perpetrators would need to depend on to do any more damage, or to achieve supremacy, killing a sizable percentage of the world's population would, in the end, render them pretty ineffective in the long run. I don't see how anyone, even someone who appears to be thick, would think that small pox would be an effective weapon to use to achieve victory.

Also, the vaccine that we have on hand here in the US can be used as after-exposure protection. Even after exposure, recieving the vaccine can protect people from the disease. We have a pretty sizable supply of the vaccine available in the event of a small pox outbreak, and we're in the process of making more. Some people in the US would likely die, but probably not as many as the agressors might anticipate. If the contagious bio-terrorism were to be waged by people in a third world country, it's possible, maybe even likely, that they would sustain more casualties than us.

Keep in mind, also, that the terrorist networks are spread throughout counties all over the world, including the US. If we're thinking in terms of cancer, we had probably better change our analogy from that of a tumor that can be removed surgically, to a cancer that has metastasized to many parts of the body. With such a cancer, there is no surgical way to remove it. It has to be gotten rid of through other means.

One of the ways that is currently being experimented with is to cut off the blood supply that feeds the cancerous cells, but leaves the healthy cells intact. I think we can find ways to accomplish this with regard to the terrorist organizations as well.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:12 PM

One more thing. If someone like Bin Ladin is trying to destroy civilization, as some have suggested, success would also be failure. Bin Ladin and the terrorist networks depend upon civilization to accomplish their goals. If they were to be successful in destroying civilization, they would become nothing more than petty local warlords.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

Suicide terrorists would not share your concerns. The US has between 7-15 million doses of small pox vaccine. This is proportionally less than the number of lifeboats on the Titanic. When we thought small pox was eradicated world wide, millions of small pox vaccine doses were destroyed.

'Fundamental' Islam has no need for western civiliztion. Truly I have no intention to demonize. It is just an alien mind set for many to comprehend. For example; an "unjust and tryannical government" to a fundamental muslim is ANY government that is not based on fundamental Islam. To us it means something nearly the opposite.

There are undoubtedly many threats and blackmail tactics that we are not told about. We may be trying to fulfill some of them while buying time bombing $1,000 buildings with million dollar bombs.

Let me post a link to small pox that includes my prior reference to our simulation of small pox attack this last June called Operation Dark Winter.

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:14 PM

http://www.hopkins-biodefense.org/

the American Society for Microbiology at http://www.asmusa.org/pcsrc/bioprep.htm

Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:22 PM

Suicide terrorists would not share your concerns

Suicide terrorists aren't afraid for their own lives, but they do what they do in order to accomplish a goal. If the goal is removed, there is no point in them doing what they do. I think they are probably pretty aware of that.

The small pox vaccine has been found to be effective in smaller doses than people previously expected. They are saying that it can be used to vaccinate maybe three to five times more people than was previously believed. However, if large numbers of people all over the world are killed, it will not be possible to wage the kind of terrorism that you are talking about. 'Fundamental' Islam may not have any need for western civilization, but the kind of terrorism you're talking about cannot operate without it.