BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4

Subject: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 07:32 AM

I can't see any movement on the old one since February and it was over the 700 post limit anyway so here is a new one :-)

A link to the old one is here but I don't think it will open unless some kind mod can work some magic?

Anyroads, Dick Miles asked the question elsewhere and I think it is worth discussing more opemly. It was whether a left wing party, mooted by Zarah Sultana and involving Jeremy Corbyn wouls split the left wing vote.

I do not think that the party will take off but, if it did, I am not sure how it would affect things. There is no political left wing in government at the moment but there are a number of movements that are further left than the current Labout party. I think that the best we can hope for is that the more socially concious factions will get together and hold a balance of power in a parliament hung between Tories (Conservative) amd Tory light (Labour)

A substantialy more right wing movement (Reform) have gained momentum because the electorate are pissed off with the main parties so, just maybe, a substantially more left wing movement may gain similar traction. Of course the MSM will do their best to nip it in the bud (Telegraph have already started!) but I think that their hold over opinion is starting to slip. Well, I hope so anyway :-)

Over to you...

---

There's a trick so they can be seen but have to stay closed so they don't get added to and disappear again. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 08:44 AM

A new party will face an uphill battle.
It would, of course, be socialist and therefore most of it’s support would come disgruntled labour supporters who are disillusioned with the current labour government. (Keir Starmer is politically around the same position as John Major).
The Labour leadership would see any new socialist party as threat, much as the SNP attack any prospective pro-independence parties. The tories would be happy at first to see the Labour vote split, but that would change if they thought the new party was a threat.
The media are all run by right wingers or “champagne socialists” and would be against it from the very beginning.
And a big threat will come from inside, rather like the current in-fighting in the Scottish Alba party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 09:00 AM

New parties in the uk historically have failed, examples Mosleys new party, Social democratic party and the gang of four

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 03:49 PM

The SNP rose from nothing thanks to a dedicated and charismatic leader. But the only one we have is Farage. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 25 - 05:49 PM

Dedicated And charismatic? if you mean Owen,ha ha more like Egotoistical and narcissitic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Jul 25 - 05:49 AM

The SNP rose from nothing thanks to a dedicated and charismatic leader.

.......",,,,,,,

Dedicated And charismatic? if you mean Owen .....

There seems to be some confusion between the Scottish Nationalists and the Social Democrats.


But the only one we have is Farage. God help us.

The new left-wing party being mooted would have Jeremy Corbyn, charasmatic enough some, not least among some of those posting here on Mudcat during his time as Leader of the Labour Party.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jul 25 - 05:56 AM

you are right, Doug, my mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 07:17 AM

I really like Jeremy Corbyn and I think he would have made a great prime minister. But I don't think he could overcome the general right wing bias of the UK establishment, especially when they employ the dirty tricks routines. Anti-semitism for Jeremy Corbyn, sexual harassment for Alex Salmond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 08:13 AM

I think you’re completely on it there, Aethelric. The Tory Dirty Tricks Brigade were responsible to a very great extent for the disaster of the 2019 GE as far as Labour was concerned. The anti-semitism/terrorist’s friend BS absolutely did for Corbyn following his poor showing in the Andrew Neill TV interview where, instead of being frank and open, he came over as defensive and stone-walling.

I do believe we have a major problem here in the UK, as well as in the US, in that we are in thrall of ‘Personality Politics’, where voters seem to make their voting decisions, not on the policies of the Parties and how likely they are to benefit us as a nation, but on which of the leaders they ‘like best’.

There was a perfect example of this phenomenon on, I think, the Kuenssberg show last Sunday, where one of eight people who voted Labour in the 2024 GE said she would vote Reform UK next time because, having watched Farage on ‘I’m a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here’, she ‘liked him’ and thought that he’s ‘on our side’, and that he’s ‘different to the Public-school-educated millionaires of the other parties’ (that, despite Farage himself being a Public-school-educated millionaire!).

I do believe that a root-and-branch overhaul of our press and media’s practices is well overdue if we are to ever get away from Personality Politics and back to a policy-driven political scene.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:31 AM

I liked Corbyn's policies and ethos but he was a weak leader and unable to cope with the right wing onslaught. I know the dirty tricks were wrong but someone stronger (Tony Benn in his day maybe?) would have turned them to his advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:33 AM

BTW, I don't recall seeing mention of JC as the leader of a new party so I am not sure if we are going off on a tangent there. I have been known to be wrong though. Occasionaly :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 10:55 AM

Dave:
BBC:
Guardian

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 11:54 AM

”I liked Corbyn's policies and ethos but he was a weak leader and unable to cope with the right wing onslaught. I know the dirty tricks were wrong but someone stronger (Tony Benn in his day maybe?) would have turned them to his advantage.”

Completely agree, Dave. JC’s weak, defensive, stonewalling performance in the TV interview with Andrew Neil was the final nail in his, and Labour’s, coffin. Tony Benn would have made mincemeat of Neil. Very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 12:29 PM

Thanks Nigel - Seems to confirm what I thought. The sub heading says

"Corbyn says ‘discussions are ongoing’ after MP’s surprise announcement but he is understood to be reluctant to take title of party leader"

and further into the article it confirms it with

"Corbyn, the MP for Islington North, is understood to be reluctant to take on the title of leader, as he has a preference for collective decision-making, and he believes imposing a hierarchy too soon could risk fragmenting the coalition of like-minded MPs he has spent months encouraging to work together."

I hope it does happen like that. Going back to my opening post I stated "I think that the best we can hope for is that the more socially concious factions will get together and hold a balance of power in a parliament hung between Tories (Conservative) amd Tory light (Labour)"

We can but hope :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 02:46 PM

Cometh the hour, cometh the man - I hope

It sounds catchier than "Cometh the man, cometh the person"

I agree completely with you DtG about holding the balance of power. A proper leader would also be able to instil fear in the other parties. Like Farage frightened Cameron so much he took us out of Europe.

If nothing comes of this new socialist party, then the next government will probably be a Reform/Tory coalition. A complete nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 25 - 07:36 PM

General polls at present (and I no longer trust polls) seem to suggest that Reform will garner the most seats, possibly even enough to be a 'majority'
GE prediction

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:20 AM

God Help the UK if that nightmare scenario comes to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:20 AM

Heaven help us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 03:35 AM

It is hard for new parties to win seats under our present outdated voting system. Our present government have a huge number of seats despite the majority of those who voted not wanting a Labour government. I don't expect the present government to do anything about the voting system. They do have a lot of other problems to deal with.

Reform are now entering an interesting stage of their development. They are now in charge of a number of councils and people will be able to judge their performance. They will find that it is not an easy task.

Farage would like to be PM but he needs a party to do that. His problem is that he is not keen on party politics. He wants to be a one man band, to be in control of everything and everyone but he has little to no interest in organising it. I don't think he shared many toys as a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 06:55 AM

”Farage would like to be PM but he needs a party to do that. His problem is that he is not keen on party politics. He wants to be a one man band, to be in control of everything and everyone but he has little to no interest in organising it. I don't think he shared many toys as a child.”

The Trump of UK politics. Be afraid, be very afraid!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:16 AM

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an alliance of progressive thinkers to oppose the conservative (small c) thinking we are stuck with currently. People have shown that they are, in general, pissed off with current politics so they are looking to scammers and grifters like Farage and deformed UK to provide an alternative. As long as people can be shown a genuine alternative, maybe they will not be conned as easily. Big ask, I know, but I still have faith in most people :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Aethelric
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:31 AM

There are councils in the UK where independents have allied with a party to form an administration. My own county (Cornwall) is ran by a Lib Dem/Independent alliance.

This really upset Reform who got the highest number of seats but not a majority. The other councillors would not work with Reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jul 25 - 10:49 AM

Do I need to reprise my "lo! a strong man" jeremiad? it's in the current or previous Convicted Felon thread somewhere*, but applies equally here, or anywhere else the current Strong Man rises to the top of the septic tank. The Meeja's tendency to point the finger of scoff from a safe distance at anyone in the top seat Does Not Help.

* I could have sworn I put it down somewhere, but can I find it now --- ? It's official: I'm getting old.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jul 25 - 10:24 AM

Keir Starmer: Doesn't play well with others.
Doesn't play well with Conservatives,
Doesn't play well with Reform,
Doesn't even play well with his own party.

Whips being removed left, right, and centre. (or should that be 'left, left, and even further left'?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Jul 25 - 09:21 PM

Keir Starmer's govt suffers from the major problem that they were in opposition when de Pfeffel's shower were the alleged Government. The best whetstone to sharpen a party-in-opposition against is a competent party-in-power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 03:09 AM

How much of a threat, to Starmer, is the new party led by Corbyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 04:33 AM

Why don’t you set the ball rolling by telling us how much of a threat you think it is, and in what way(s)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 05:08 AM

There are a couple of things wrong with your question, Dick,

Firstly, there is no new party yet and, secondly, as and if it comes about, the leadership is not decided.

You seem to have got the question from this BBC article but if you actualy read the article you will see that there is nothing but speculation as yet

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 12:59 PM

BACKWOODSMAN Why should i set the ball rolling, perhaps I am interested in other peoples opinions before i form a definite opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:06 PM

”BACKWOODSMAN Why should i set the ball rolling, perhaps I am interested in other peoples opinions before i form a definite opinion”

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:13 PM

Because I have not made my mind up yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:18 PM

Perhaps neither have the rest of us. Which was why I invited you to set the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:33 PM

Perhaps neither have the rest of us. QUOTE BACK WOODSMAN.
Who else do you speak for? are you a member of the reform party, who are these other people you represent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:33 PM

FWIW, my opinion is the same as DtG’s - that there is insufficient firm data to enable anyone to form an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 01:41 PM

”Who else do you speak for? are you a member of the reform party, who are these other people you represent”

I haven’t claimed to speak for or represent anyone else - I simply proposed a possible hypothesis - but thanks for confirming my suspicion that you’re just pulling your usual trolling stunts and looking for a fight. Tough shit - you’ll have to find another victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 02:08 PM

you used the plural word "us ". that is plural, which suggest you are representing other people as well as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 02:56 PM

GTFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 03:05 PM

Majoc: "Keir Starmer's govt suffers from the major problem that they were in opposition when de Pfeffel's shower were the alleged Government. The best whetstone to sharpen a party-in-opposition against is a competent party-in-power."

So even Starmer's ineptitude is the fault of the Conservatives?
What a strange world you live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 25 - 04:54 PM

Starmer's ineptitude is his own fault Every body is responsible for their own actions including Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 04:55 AM

I don't think we can blame the Tories for Starmer's ineptitude but I do think that Johnson started to downward slide of bad leaders. Hopefully the next PM, of whatever flavour, will not be a bumbling populist that has no idea how to govern. That rules out Badenuff of course...

We had that dreadful time when the blonde buffoon's premiership coincided with the turnips first presidential term in the US. Surely that perfect storm can never happen again can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 05:23 AM

I think Cameron started the slide downwards

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:23 AM

Cameron failed abysmally with the Brixit fiasco but until then I don't recall him being particularly inept - It was like Blair's Iraq cock up. One mistake does not make them inept but Johnson did not get anything right and I don't think any Prime Minister since has done much better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:43 AM

David Cameron, the former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, made several significant mistakes and miscalculations during his time in office (2010-2016) that had lasting impacts on British politics. Here are some of the most notable:

    The 2015 EU Referendum: Cameron's decision to hold an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2016 was intended to settle divisions within the Conservative Party and appease Eurosceptics. However, he underestimated the strength of the Leave campaign and the discontent among voters regarding the EU, which ultimately led to the Brexit vote and significant political turmoil.
    Handling of the Scottish Independence Referendum: While the 2014 referendum ultimately resulted in a vote to remain in the UK, Cameron's approach to the campaign was criticized. Many believed he did not sufficiently engage with Scottish issues or the concerns of the Scottish electorate, which fueled nationalist sentiment and led to increased calls for independence.
    Austerity Measures: Cameron's government implemented severe austerity measures following the 2008 financial crisis. While aimed at reducing the national deficit, these policies led to widespread public discontent, protests, and criticism regarding their impact on public services and social welfare. The long-term economic effects and social consequences of these measures have been debated extensively.
    Failure to Control Party Factions: Cameron struggled to manage the divisions within the Conservative Party, particularly between moderates and hardline Eurosceptics. This division became increasingly pronounced leading up to the Brexit referendum and contributed to his eventual resignation.
    The "Big Society" Initiative: Cameron's vision of the "Big Society," which aimed to empower communities and reduce the role of the state, was seen by many as vague and poorly executed. It failed to gain traction and was criticized for lacking a clear strategy or sufficient funding.
    Response to the Syrian Civil War and Refugee Crisis: Cameron faced criticism for his handling of the Syrian conflict, particularly regarding military interventions and the UK's response to the refugee crisis. His decision to intervene in Libya in 2011 also faced backlash due to the subsequent instability in the region.
    Overconfidence in Polling: Leading up to the 2015 general election, Cameron and his advisors were overly confident in their polling data, believing they could secure a majority. While they did win a majority, the confidence in polling led to complacency in campaign strategy and engagement with key voter groups.

These miscalculations and mistakes contributed to significant political challenges during and after Cameron's tenure, particularly with the rise of Brexit and the subsequent leadership changes within the Conservative Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 25 - 10:58 AM

Yes Dick, all PMs have made mistakes but not all have been inept. And please provide the source of your C&Ps. The above is obviously not your own work.

I located a Guardian article which I think provides a good balance of views.

Sub title is "Risk-taker, pragmatist, placater – or all of the above? Six leading historians assess Cameron’s aims, achievements and failures as prime minister"

I don't think it is particulary an appeal to authority as it does give half a dozen different views

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 25 - 06:08 PM

I am not a big a fan of Angela Rayner, other than I think she is more left than the rest of Starmer's crew and she supported my choice (Rebecca Long-Bailey) in the leaderhip election. But I am looking forward to seeing her in action against James (not so) Cleverly. I suspect mincemeat will be made and Badenuff will soon regret her choice.

Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jul 25 - 02:58 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/22/completely-unprecedented-wes-streeting-resident-doctors-strike?utm_source=firefo
link to Guardian article about Doctors and strike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 25 - 11:52 AM

John Crace of the Guardian made me laugh because I had not heard not so Cleverly bing referred to as Sir Jim Dim before :-)

Seems to support my previous thoughts anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 25 - 09:05 AM

Corbyn confirms new party
per BBC news

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 03:29 AM

They are asking for suggestions for a name

Party McPartyface anyone? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit and other UK politics thread 4
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 25 - 05:18 AM

FFS Dave, don’t - there are people out there daft enough to go for that…!! ;-)