BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.

Subject: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:30 AM

A hearty congratulations to our brothers in Palestine from the people of Ireland on regaining your land on the Gaza Strip. The world saw the repression you endured by the invading force over several decades. Well done and peace and happiness for the future.Your heartache has saw victory today.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:44 AM

Let's hope peace comes to all the peoples of the Middle East. A friend who had lived in Beirut before the civil war there told me that it was a Paradise on earth before ethnic conflicts were unleashed. We have to stop talking about victories over opponents and value peace as the real prize.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM

Peace will come, and when it does people will be unable to understand what happened before. And it's only when people are unable to understand what happened before that it will in fact be peace, rather than just an interlude of truce before it all starts up again.

That's a long way off in the Holy Land. And still a fair way to go in Ireland. But it will come.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:02 AM

Good old Palestinians, I just Pray that peace will come to that land, I just hope that attidudes change

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:27 AM

Unfortunately Gaza is only part of the problem, there's the whole of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, plus the question of the land within "legal" Israel that was confiscated from displaced Palestinians after 1947.

The only solution that I can foresee is a non- sectarian, non- racial state that encompasses both Israel amnd Palestine, with Jerusalem being perhaps under international control as a first step.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:52 AM

I don't know if you are right or not Paul, but I think everyone will be glad that one more obstacle to peace is being removed. Sometimes solving smaller problems first opens the path to dealing with the bigger ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Tam the man
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM

Except the Settelers, they don't like it or some of them, but if this brings peace or the start for peace, then I'm behind it

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:14 AM

I've lost the plot a little on this, where can I find information on it please including the history?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Sharon's speech on Gaza pullout

Israel Begins evicting Settlers

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:24 AM

I think "The" was trolling for Martin Gibson, this is a little love note to the departed one.

The Palestinians have actually avoided doing anything. The Israeli pullout is by government fiat.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:35 AM

It's a start.

Now we have to see if the Palestinian Authority can control the extremists in Gaza. If they can, then that will help convince many in Israel that they can give up land in the West Bank. If they cannot, then there is no hope for further withdrawls for a generation.

It's going to take a lot of tolerance and trust on both sides, and alot of luck.

I think the only solution for Jerusalem is some kind of international status, very defintly not belonging to either side

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

Why are the Palestinians expected to control their extremists when the Isreali government can't control theirs? In the last two weeks extremist settlers have murdered several Palestinians in cold blood. The government of Israel was not able to prevent this from happening. Why would anyone expect that the Palestinian authorities should have greater control over their extremists than the Israeli authorities have over theirs? This is a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:54 PM

We many of us live in lands gained by force of arms, arranged marriage or a handfull of beads. The rights or wrongs of this particular conflict do not excuse the blood spilled by both sides.
Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

I heartily DO congratulate the Palestinians right now! Sharon has finally quit STALLING what he PROMISED to do YEARS ago! I have NYTimes saved from years back with Sharon getting benefits from Palestinians for that promise and each and every freakin' time he renegged on it...FINALLY the time has come and I have Zero sympathy for the settlers being moved. On top of it all, a huge percentage of those settlers trying to claim that settlement land flew in from the US! At least ten years ago, 40,000 American Jews had been flown into the Gaza Strip to occupy land that had belonged to Palestinian farm families for generations. And then, America somehow backed the Israeli army in a way we never would with Palestine, as if Israel had an American army, which it basically does, thus we armed the white pocket of folks in the middle of the Middle East...you better start following the plot, person who said you were lost, cuz the WTC attacks, the kids coming home in body bags now, all of this is related to YOUR country and YOUR tax dollars...and wars going on in your name.

I am SOOOOOO happy to see Sharon finally quit stalling, lying and breaking treaties!!! Finally, this day has come! I am so happy for this...this is the first step and nothing could be done without this. Finally Sharon did what he has promised to do for too long now.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Grab
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:43 PM

By the latest stats, Hamas has better guns and training than the Palestinian authorities, and they are not bound by any rules to make them follow the elected leaders of Palestine. That's why people are more worried about what the Palestinian extremists will do.

The Israelis are just as full of rabid nutters, if not more so. The Palestinians just want their land back, whereas the Israelis reckon they've got a divine right to it, which is utterly bonkers. But the Israeli army at least is bound to follow what the politicians say, and they're better armed and trained than the settlers so they can make it stick. It doesn't stop the settlers being dangerous to Palestinians, but at least it means the settlers can be controlled (and evicted) by the Israeli authorities. If the Hamas extremists decided on full-scale open war tomorrow, they could do so, and there would be absolutely nothing that the Palestinian government could do about it. For that reason, I'm with Bunnahabhain - I hope that the leaders of Hamas all have the sense to let things be and enforce that amongst their followers.

It certainly is nice to see Sharon sticking to the pullout plan. That bastard has so much blood on his hands from what he did to incite the last big round of violence. I'm just glad he saw there was no future in things carrying on as they were.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: open mike
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

Why must they destroy the buildings which exist there now as they pull out? Sems a waste to leave only rubble behind..perhaps they could leave the buildings intact so that the Palestinians are not inheriting a mess?

seems full of vengefullness to smash everything...

this situation has been full of venge and re-venge for centuries now.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,bruce
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

Repression by the invading force? I thought the Arabs invaded and lost the war. Maybe we should give Texas back to the Mexicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:11 PM

It was Arabs who were living there (Gaza) in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

Really, Carol. Source, please. My understanding is that the whole area has been inhabited by various Semitic peoples for a few thousand years.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:14 PM

Aren't "Semitic peoples" Arabs, Mick?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM

Ever heard the term "anti Semitic" applied to those that hate Jews? The Jews are also Semitic peoples, and have lived in that area as long as Arabs have, if I am not mistaken. I stand ready to be corrected.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:22 PM

To the extent that Jews are Semitic peoples, it is because they have a common ancestry to the other Semitic peoples. The Jews who left the Middle East and migrated to Europe are only Semitic because of this common ancestry.

There were Jews living in Gaza prior to the European settlement of that area, but they were Arabic Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: The Curator
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:24 PM

They were turfed off their land by the British and Americans in 1946 to deal with the post war problem. Hence New State.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:42 PM

Again I ask for sources. I believe that many of the folks that left were forced to leave, but again I am willing to stand corrected. The only distinction I know of between Semitic Jews and some form of non semitic Jew would be those that came to the religion as opposed to being born Jewish.

Using your explanation, would Palestinians who left the area and immigrated to Europe not be considered Semites?

I am making these distinctions to make the point that congratulations will be in order when these "cousins" are living in peace. I would prefer to congratulate Jews and Arab, semitic cousins, on an accord which allows them to recognize what they have in common, and celebrate that which is different.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:09 PM

There is no such thing as Arabic Jews. Arabic is a language. Apart from that you are more or less right about the Gaza Jewry.
Frankly if we go back far enough, the Palestinians are the same people as the Jews, but overlaid with Arab, Turk, Greek, Sudanese, etc.
For the last time, Anti-Semitism reffers exclusively to Jews. It was coined by Wilhelm Marr to define hatred of Jews.
Isn't there a little too much gloating on this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:15 PM

First of all, Mick, I have not congratulated anyone.

Secondly, you are asking me to support a point that I have not made.

There are European Jews (Ashkenazim), there are Spanish Jews (Sephardim), and there are Arabic Jews (Mizrahim). What I am saying is that the distinction between the term "Arab" and "Jew" is a false one, since there are many Jews who are Arabs by virtue of their ancesters having never left the area, and all Jews who are not the product of conversion can trace their ancestry back the same male ancester as all other Semitic peoples. At least that is the story as told in the Bible. There are Arabic Christians as well.

Using your explanation, would Palestinians who left the area and immigrated to Europe not be considered Semites?

Yes, they are Semites.


Re: my earlier point... it was not a justification of anything. My point is that independence for Palestinians should not be conditional upon the Palestinian leadership being able to completely control Palestinian extremists. This is hypocritical and a double standard, since the Israeli government has consistantly shown that it cannot control Israeli extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:17 PM

It surprises me that you would say that there are no Arabic Jews, Le Scaramouche, especially since you yourself live in the area. I know there a quite a few Mizrahim whose first language is Arabic, who would would also be very surprised to learn that they don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:23 PM

No, I said no ARABIC Jews. It's pedantic, but Arabic is a language. The proper term being Arab. Anyway, Arabs are only part of the Mizrahis. There are also Berbers and Persians. Mountain Jews and Kurds are a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Le Scaramouche. That's good to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM

re sources of who was living there, the Jewish view is presented in Professor Julius Stone's book, "Israel and Palestine - Assault on the Law of nations" He quotes from census documents that:

"On the merely political and commonsense level, there is also ground for greater tolerance towards Israel's position, not only because of the historic centrality of Jerusalem to Judaism for 3,000 years, but also because in modern times Jews have always exceeded Arabs in Jerusalem. In 1844 there were 7,000 Jews to 5,000 Moslems; in 1910, 47,000 Jews to 9,800 Moslems; in 1931, 51,222 Jews to 19,894 Moslems; in 1948, 100,000 Jews to 40,000 Moslems, and in 1967 200,000 Jews to 54,902 Moslems."

Unfortunately I have only found an edited edition of this treatise here-
source - International Law and the Arab-Israel Conflict

Another pertinent comment from the same document:

"Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leaders have frankly disavowed distinct Palestine identity. On March 3, 1977, for example, the head of the PLO Military Operations Department, Zuhair Muhsin, told the Netherlands paper Trouw that there are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese:

"We are one people. Only for political reasons do we carefully underline our Palestinian identity. For it is of national interest for the Arabs to encourage the existence of the Palestinians against Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestine identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian State is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity."…

That statement admits the Arab tactic that the existence of a separate Palestine identity is there only for tactical reasons, and so a struggle is justified. It is clear at least that there have been both Jews and Arabs living in Palestine for hundreds of years, and as Ariel Sharon has now acknowledged, in Gaza the Arab Palestinians now vastly outnumber the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:08 PM

Interesting point, Freda. I think there are many Palestinians who would be very happy to live in a purely secular state that encompasses both the area that is now Israel, as well as the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, with no particular religious identity or affiliation, and where land ownership is not affiliated with any particular religion. I don't think the government of Israel is considering that option, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Sorry to pee in the soup here, but I believe the butcher Sharon has ulterior motives in this.

The obvious thing that comes to mind is that the Gaza pullout is a bone thrown to the Palestinians to appease international pressure: "See, we gave them Gaza; we're good guys after all." This may well cement Israel's occupation of the much larger and more important West Bank (which includes Jerusalem, after all).

But it could go much deeper than that. I do not believe that Sharon would give the Palestinians the sweat off his balls unless he had some nefarious reason.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM

He wrote it in a different context but I think this song of Buddy's is fairly appropo:

Isaiah's Dream

Buddy Tabor
Juneau, Alaska
(c) 2005

Oh a soldier sleeps in a flag-draped grave
You hid your lies behind the life he gave
You had your will but you lied to him
Now the tears flow like water down the faces of his next of kin

When we rose up to say you were wrong
Like Saul you gnashed your teeth in propaganda's song
You wanted power to gain control
And yes, it seems that you have lost your very soul

    Oh the vine is green and the wine is red
    And the Word was made Flesh and you know that Flesh has bled
    Oh, peace will come but I don't know when
    All I know is that spark of hope still burns within

Isaiah's dream is coming 'round
With the sword hammered into a plow on fertile ground
Oh the thorns are sharp but peace will come
And one day all of us will dance to a different drum

Yes, there'll come a day when there'll be no more war
And it won't be taught to the nations of the world any more
Yes, that day will come but I don't know when
All I know is that spark of hope still burns within

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:42 PM

No! it is not a day to celebrate or congratulate- and for my Irish part I do not celebrate this horror!

What was so wrong with leaving those who wanted to stay where they were?

Could not all the people live in peace as they wished?

It is a day of shame and Irish people should most of all know about such a disgrace. Until the Israelis returned to the land it withered while the sparse population lay about shrieking and smoking Hasheesh. Now that it is blooming, the greedy take it away and give it back to thugs and murderers!

It is appeasement to achieve G_d only knows what!

When children are crying to heaven to save them and nobody can it is time to prepare for far worse things!

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:02 PM

I don't trust Sharon any further than I can throw him but...

... with that said this is a good first step. And a long overdue one.

Now let's see about the West Bank???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: podman
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:27 PM

If the Jews get turfed off of Gaza, the Pally's get turfed off the West Bank.


It's Only Fair

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM

Until the Israelis returned to the land it withered while the sparse population lay about shrieking and smoking Hasheesh. Now that it is blooming, the greedy take it away and give it back to thugs and murderers!

Jaysus, sorefingers, you are Irish? That sounds like something Maggie Thatcher might say...

If the Jews get turfed off of Gaza, the Pally's get turfed off the West Bank. It's Only Fair

No it isn't, podman. But that's going to be Sharon's next step, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:55 PM

The problem with leaving them where they were is that they have been living in Jewish only communities, with Jewish only access roads, guarded by the IDF, that have required the destruction of the homes of many thousands of Palestinians.

Had the settlers been willing to live in Palestinian villages along side of the Palestinians, living as Jewish Palestinians, that would have been another situation all together. And one that I, personally, would have applauded.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:02 PM

Also, the Jewish only communities and Jewish only roads have been placed in such a way as to separate Palestinian villages from each other, and also to separate Palestinians from their farmland and olive groves.

Also, the settlers have been harassing the Palestinians with various kinds of violence, including shooting at them, and also the Jewish only communities have been appropriating a disproportionate percentage of the water resources, even for things like watering lawns and filling swimming pools, while the Palestinians haven't even been allowed enough for their basic survival needs, such as washing or watering their crops.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 04:55 AM

I think both "sides" of the debate can easily list off atrocities committed bu the other party. Both sides are victims, both sides have blood on their hands. The hope for the future is that despite living in a war zone, some people are strong enough to step out of the political violence to work towards a new future.

This book, Healing Israel/Palestine: A Path to Peace and Reconciliation , Healing Israel/Palestine argues that it is possible to be both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. There are two book reviews on the site, one which says that the book is dangerous airy fairy rubbish, the other which argues that developing such an attitude is the only real resolution to the war.

This other book, Tried by Fire
, is written by two men, one an Israeli intelligence officer, one was Yasser Arafat's chief ilieutenant and spokesperson. These two men crossed the boundaries of hate, and started working together towards finding peace, finally becoming friends. It is a fascinating book.


freda

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 05:06 AM

Is anyone else hearing the news of people barracading themselves into a synagogue, and thinking 'Masada'?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:00 AM

This beautiful tune, Baym Rebn in Palestina, (best version I could get at quickly) is to me how it SHOULD have been, and could yet be with goodwill.

With the Rabbi in Palestine, gentle, respected, dignified.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

Masada

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:32 AM

I went to a forum a couple of years ago, in which various members of the Jewish community debated whether to pull out of the Occupied Territories or not. There was such a split in opinion between the very religious Jews and the others. It seemed that the ultra orthodox were granted exemption from serving in the Israeli army some decades ago, out of respect for their role as keepers of the old religious tradition. They came forth and flourished - and many live as settlers in the occupied areas, in the hope that by living in these places, they will help bring to fruition the Biblical prophecy that the Messiah will return, once these places are inhabited by Jews.

The more secular population in Israel has greatly resented having to send their sons and daughters to risk their lives and fight in the army, to defend the fundamentalist religious Jews who are exempt from fighting, who live in the occupied areas. So what is happening now is a real battle between very religious Jews and more secular or conservative jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:35 AM

as this Editorial from the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, shows..

Extortion by sanctity; 18/08/2005   


The High Court of Justice is to rule in the coming days on a petition by the rabbi of the settlement of Elei Sinai, Yishai Bar-Chen, who is asking the state to move the synagogue building in its entirety from the Gaza Strip to within the Green Line. This is a disingenuous petition which, like other petitions of the settlers, makes sophisticated use of liberal principles like individual and community rights in order to carry out deranged messianic acts.
The walls of the synagogues, their floors, roofs and any other part of the structure in which people pray, are neither sacred nor sacrosanct. There is no reason not to take the buildings apart, sell them or make any other use of them the state sees fit. In any case, the communities will bring out the synagogue's sacred objects and memorial plaques. But moving entire buildings just because they served for a time as synagogues will create a dangerous precedent that will show up the weakness of the institution of statehood in the face of the settlers' emotional blackmail.

This blackmail is in operation all across the ritual board that stems from the teachings of the Yesha rabbis, Chabad and the like. They have sanctified not only the furrows of the earth, but the trees and the rocks. Neveh Dekalim is suddenly defined as a "holy place." The religious college may not be touched because it contains sacred objects, abandoning trees planted in Gush Katif is a serious infraction of halakha (Jewish law), for which transgressors will be punished in the world to come, and on and on with other inventions of this ilk, in the twilight zone between the devotion of the gullible and the simple, and cynical exploitation by religious politicians of their religion and their religiosity. The exploitation of the objects is nothing compared to the repulsive and well advertised exploitation of the worship of God. Leading this line, together with the extremists of the Gush, are the thousands of infiltrators who came to the Gaza Strip - they and their rabbis. They make sure to show up for morning prayers just when the army has to open the gate, to call for grace after meals or afternoon prayers just when it is time to pack or get on the bus. They hold on to the Holy Ark as if it were the horns of the altar and wail ecstatically over every book of Psalms, from beginning to end, the moment they see there are microphones and cameras around.

The soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces and the police are under tremendous physical and emotional pressure. The restrained and responsible manner in which they are dealing with the task shows over and over to every citizen of Israel the meaning of deep commitment to the flag of Israel and the symbol of the menorah on their uniforms. The cynical emotional and religious blackmail of the settlers and the infiltrators, taken from the dubious inventory of shallow and kitschy messianic ritual (some of which is tainted by truly non-Jewish symbols), nevertheless manages to reverberate with large segments of the public.

The High Court justices will be wrong if they let this noise influence them. The transfer of even one wall as a holy object will be enough to plant the seal of approval on false-messianism, against the danger of which the state has finally began to defend itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:14 AM

a view from the Guardian on why the withdrawal..

Sharon breaks covenant with settlers;
Security interests no longer aligned with messianic minority's dream of greater Israel; Chris McGreal in Neve Dekalim; Thursday August 18, 2005; The Guardian


In removing just 8,000 of the 400,000-plus Jews living on occupied Palestinian land, Mr Sharon acknowledged that the dream of greater Israel was dead and the country's security interests were no longer aligned with the settlers whose desires once dominated government decisions. ... The growing number of young refuseniks who ducked national service because they did not want to serve the occupation could be dismissed as lacking moral fibre. But when helicopter pilots and commandos said they would no longer be complicit in "war crimes", particularly in Gaza, Mr Sharon could not ignore it.

Ordinary Israelis began to ask why nearly 100 soldiers have died in Gaza to protect a few thousand settlers living among more than a million Arabs. Yonatan Bassi, the head of the disengagement authority, described the soldiers as "human flakjackets".

...The Gaza withdrawal plan represented an about face by Mr Sharon.... It represented a significant step towards resolving what Israelis call their demographic problem: how to get rid of responsibility for millions of Arabs who threaten Israel's desire to be both Jewish and democratic.

"Gaza cannot be held on to forever," said Mr Sharon on Monday in an address to the country. "Over 1 million Palestinians live there, and they double their numbers with every generation."

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM

How Old Friends Of Israel Gave $14 Million To Help The Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:50 AM

I am for the disengagement, but it is not the time to be rejoicing or gloating. Try a little dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 01:59 PM

I agree with you, Le Scaramouche.

Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to the Palestinians.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

I agree that it's no time for rejoicing, though for Palestinian neighbours of the settlements it must be a great relief to no longer be on the front line, and to be able to walk out of their homes in the evening or go up on their rooftop balconies without fear of snipers or of stray bullets. Or bulldozers.

But the whole thing is a tragedy. And the heart of the tragedy is that the two peoples have been unable to find a way to share the whole of the Holy Land between them.