Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

Not a lot of people know that ancient anglo-saxon incantations hold a magic all of their own. Take an example - Trying to fit a door frame into a hole with slightly smaller dimensions than itself. Armed with lump hammer, crow bar and silicon lubricant (the equivalent of bell, book and candle) you will never hear a builder using the phrase 'Please get into that space in the masonry kindly wood based product'. Yet, use the incantation 'Get the fuck in the hole you fucking oversized twat. What kind of fucking dick-head made this piece of shit in the first fucking place', followed by liberal application of afore mentioned apparatus generaly results in a mystical trasformation of previously un-bound items into one functional orrafice to ease the pedestrian passage of humanoid life-forms from one area to another.

Until the joiner comes to fit the door of course when the whole process begins again with saw, plane and screwdriver...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM

I would genuinely appreciate an answer to an important question concerning the use of 'c*nt' [not by me], & how it differs from my previous use of the same word in undisguised form, which I posted this morning at 08-05 a.m. It is a question asked in true search of academic enlightenment as to the distinction.

I name names here — KatLaughing & Ebbie, you both denounced me in exceedingly immoderate terms, casting doubt on my parentage, honesty and bona-fides, notwithstanding the fact that you were intervening in a dispute I was in the throes of at the time with one other particular individual in which you were in now way concerned. How can you justify not having reacted similarly in this present instance when the only differences are that the use of the epithet was this time entirely gratuitous & in no way provoked as in my case [by the use of 'turd' towards me by the other party, just to remind you]; and that it was most inadequately disguised by an asterisk replacing the central vowel?

I am not asking for any sort of justification of your previous addresses to me, which are all in the past. But I do hope for enlightenment in the form of some academic explanation as to the
differences between the two instances. My interest, I repeat, is purely academic. What difference, please, does the asterisk make? Is it not at least arguable that its use exacerbates, rather than moderates, the offensiveness of the word by drawing attention to its potential offensiveness?

Like the man in Dickens: "I want to know, you know". Answers, please. This thread,, if anywhere, is the place for such.

Michael

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:45 AM

Well...I understand a few expletives when inanimate objects contrive to be excessively obstinate, and even when some animate object offends one deeply in 'real life', but... I am never sure when someone swears at length in print whether they are just proving they know some words, or whether they are worried that no one will believe they are serious unless 'fucking' is applied to all offensive nouns...and many verbs.

Now... to respond directly to Michael's question: Specific words are viewed differently in differently in various contexts, and by different individuals. In some cultural contexts certain words have been used as insults so often that they engender an automatic resentment...no matter how they were intended. One can toss 'c**t' into some conversations and get several levels of reaction, from mild amusement to horrified offense to deep embarrassment.
Why? Because people process language and the controversial parts of language differently! Wow...not very profound, is it? Sorry, but some truths just aren't terribly profound. Some people USE such words, some resent or are upset by them....some, (like me, for instance), reserve serious expletives for serious situations, and almost NEVER resort to them when I am unsure of the reaction.

I find I can express my anger, displeasure, frustration, opinions...etc... without the use of modifying expletives 99% of the time, so when I DO use one, folks who know me take serious notice. (I am reminded of "The boy who cried "wolf")

What to do in a forum like this? Posts here are not in simplistic categories that can be listed and ruled on...they fall on an infinite continuum, much like definitions of 'folk'..(or f**k). I have seen posts with NO expletives that offend me deeply, and posts with many expletives that actually say something, even though I would not have said it that way. How can we possibly make rules or edit this place in ANY way that will please everyone?
Max has said many times that WE must learn to get along with each other, and he has only a few hard & fast rules about what is allowed...or specifically not allowed. He appointed a few folks he trusts to try to moderate the place as best they can, knowing that NO system or decision will please everyone.

My personal suggestion? Take it easy! (Still not very profound or helpful? *shrug*) It's the best I can do... just count 10 or something before knowingly saying stuff you know will get complaints...and remember that the forum moderators are human, and their standards ...or even mood of the moment... may make them see your posts in a different spot on that continuum than you do... or than you meant them. *IF* you are edited or your thread closed, you'll usually be able to guess why, but don't expect Joe to debate every fine point with you! There's not enough time in the universe to explain all decisions.



Oh....and try to have fun! We have been having fun here since Oct. of 1996, and doing moderately well at being fairly free while not allowing just everyone to say just anything.

You are in a **PUBLIC** forum, read all over the world, by folk in many cultures.... do not assume YOUR standards are all that matter.

(yeah, I know that's more than you wanted to read...I get carried away)

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:50 AM

Michael...I did try to get an answer in, but I type with 2 fingers...you posted again while I was thinking.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:00 PM

Bill: Many thanks for your thoughtful & considered response, with which I in the main agree. But you will have gathered from my 2nd post, cross-posted with yours, that my initial question was most specifically addressed to those [whom I named 2nd time around] who had most vociferously and abusively objected to my [I still maintain] much provoked expletive on that previous occasion, but had most singularly failed to react to this more recent entirely gratuitous one -- in which, I reiterate, I can't see that the '*' will have done anything but make matters worse for reasons I expounded last time.

Best regards - Michael

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:14 PM

Ok... I hope there might be other attempts to respond seriously... I know those you mentioned, and I know that they are honest and decent folks who DO care....

*further, deponent sayeth not*

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:16 PM

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

Not a lot of people know that ancient anglo-saxon incantations hold a magic all of their own............................

Very funny!!

I shall use the knowledge of incantations in the future.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:19 PM

Indeed, Bill, I know they are too. They are people for whom I have every respect. I have exchanged views with them on other matters since the falling-out and have no wish to return to any situation of hostility or resentment. I am, as you have appreciated, just simply interested in how & why they view a difference and a distinction in the two situations.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

regarding the asterick..there are words in society that polite or even decent people prefer not to use and sometimes the asterick c? is more polite and shows an attempt to be civil or the person is using a word in a historical context that would not be used in polite society and wishes to show that he or she does not want to offend. I think it is a nice compromise in some situations. mg

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:01 PM

But that, mg, tho a valid point, was not the case in the post of 0506 a.m where it was one of a series of gratuitously used words listed to illustrate the point of this thread [fair enuff, I am not objecting to that in any way, Bryn]; but was the only one not given in full. I still wonder - oh, see my above posts, I can't go into what I wonder all over again — those to whom this is mainly addressed will have got the point by now...

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:20 PM

You are fortunate in being able to turn your attention
to more genial pursuits.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:23 PM

Sorry, ToeRag — is that addressed to me? If so, what is your point?

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Smedley
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Who, these days, is delusional enough to think anyone lives in 'polite society' ??

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

BTW - Anyone live in Ireland or Scotland where 'fuck' appears to part of everyday language?

DeG

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

Ireland or Scotland? How about Australia":

repost from 10 years ago:
JUST remembered a joke I heard years ago...told by a guy with an impeccable Aussie accent...try to imagine....

"Oh, I 'ad a fine time last Saturday..it was a fuckin' beautiful day, so I got in my fuckin' car and went for a nice fuckin' drive...till I came to this fuckin' park, and decided to get out and take a fuckin' walk. Well, I walked about a fuckin' mile and here was this fuckin' lovely lass walkin' just ahead of me..I gave her a fuckin' cheery greetin' and we hit it off right away. So we walked on down the fuckin' lane till various things in our fuckin' conversation made me quite fuckin' aware that we were fuckin' interested in the same fuckin' thing....so I looked at her...she looked at me...and we fuckin' smiled and went over a fuckin' fence and behind a fuckin' tree where no one could fuckin' see us......and had sexual intercourse!"

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: ToeRag
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

And then, when the ladies have left the room, you will be able to talk politics with the old gentleman;

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:07 PM

One may choose to use adult language which includes the sacred and the profane. Or one may choose to excise certain words, expressions and euphemisms from the full breadth of language.

It is your choice, but god damn it to hell I'll fight you to a bloody pulp if you want to take my words away or criminalize the use of language to fit your model of religious civility.

It took 4 generations of comics to bring thier case before the Supreme Court to have the personal free use of language we have today.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:18 PM

This might be the point that I express my personal preference for somewhat effete/feminine men..
True actually :)

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:33 PM

David el Gnomo: It actually occurs 3 times in a row in (obSongs) a version of "The Tinker":

The time he fucked the butler, 'twas such a fucking farce,
For the heat of the fucking fucking fucking decomposed his arse.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:17 AM

Stylistically, of course, foul language is something like habernero peppers---best used judiciously, and with restraint for maximum effect.
Overuse begets numbness.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 12:30 PM

Strange that now this thread actually *is* about foul language, the person who complained loudest and longest in the Show of Hands thread, (whilst not uttering a single word about them, or their music) hasn't said a single word.

Hmmmmmmmmm.....

:0)

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:00 PM

"ENDS
Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via
nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing 'safety-net' support" (from here).

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:23 PM

The reason I haven't responded to the posts in this thread is that I haven't been here. Michael, I'll try to explain my reasoning.

When someone uses a word or phrase in the heat of the moment it seems to me to reveal a mindset that dwells secretly in that place, whether it's misogynist, criminal, violent or whatever.

The *academic* use of that same word or phrase, however, is very different to my mind. When George Carlin, for instance, listed the 7 words one can't say on television I was not offended in any sense.

The same way with Bryn at 5:06am- that person was making a point. Probably in support of the right to say those words in the heat of the moment, but no matter: they were said coolly.

Twat. Cunt. The little wife. My bitter half. Those, and a half dozen others, are generally used demeaningly.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:57 PM

Blimey, people can swear *academically* ?

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 02:10 PM

Don't be cute, you little woman. :)

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM

I must have wonderful taste in Mudcat threads. I have read this forum for many years, and tho I have seen a good many complaints about rudeness, I have never stumbled on the actual threads in which it occurred. On the contrary, the sentiment I see most often (especially among newcomers) is astonishment at how quickly & courteously queries are answered.

As St Augustine (I think it was) said, a palace must have a cesspool or the whole palace will stink.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM

Ah, but sometimes, the ripples from the cesspool touch the palace in a way it never expected, bringing a golden refelction to its white walls, making it stand out amongst the endless 'white' internet palaces.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM

In every 'palace', there are those with either bad aim or a lack of concern about what they spread...and where..

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:57 AM

Ebbie - thank you for responding, & so logically and rationally. As was pointed out to me at the time, by Joe O in a PM, that particular word is far more offensive to American womanhood as a sexual belittler, as you state, than it is over here in England, where it is a much more vanilla word, I should estimate, than the F one which is so cheerfully bandied about on this forum. A cultural difference, in fact, of which I wasn't aware - & remember that Sweeney & I who were the ones at odds at the time were here, not there. I think I can genuinely assure you that no suppressed anti-woman thoughts were, even sub- or un-consciously passing thru my mind as I used the term [which was, you will recall, a rejoinder to being denounced as a 'turd', which is at least as offensive a term over here].

I do not rake up these old & now defunct and reconciled controversies in any spirit of renewed hostility or in order to revive them in any way; but to explain my use of this word, which I used in unawareness of how offensive it would be to you & Kat and others, about which I have now learned better & certainly shan't use it on here in such a fashion again now that I am better informed.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:34 AM

I think I have posted previously that I abominate the word 'cunt' and never use it, even in anger.

Hence my use of the asterisk in a previous post, which seems to have raised more heat (so to speak) than had I put it in its unexpurgated form, as above.

Michael - please don't read the foregoing as my having a pop at you.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:50 AM

"When someone uses a word or phrase in the heat of the moment it seems to me to reveal a mindset that dwells secretly in that place, whether it's misogynist, criminal, violent or whatever."


Oh please, spare us the cod psychology. To imply that anyone who uses expletives has some sort of personality disorder is grossly offensive to those like me who find them a perfectly acceptable adjunct to everyday speech, in the heat or the moment or otherwise. And no, I am none of the things you mention.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:08 AM

Bryn: I did not take it so - but many thanks for the disclaimer.

Michael

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:49 AM

it's not so much the words as what's behind them

Lenny Bruce, George Carlin and Richard Prior pushed back at the boundaries, sometimes got arrested, and made a lot of people laugh...

one last 4 letter word common to all of them... and eventually to all of us.... 'DEAD'

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:59 PM

It can be very helpful to know which words are commonly deemed 'offensive' in various cultures & countries.....remember, in the US, 'fanny' is almost neutral, referring, for most people, only to the gluteus maximus,...as in where one spanks a child (if one does at all).... butt, bottom, posterior...etc.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:15 PM

"cod psychology"? I have no idea on that one. My perception is based on my own observation. But the point flew right on by you. Right? :)

Michael, I understand better now. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:49 PM

Ebbie, from observation it seems to me that Americans are generally less liberal with sweary words than British people are - and indeed you opt for more formal politenesses with strangers than British people find customary.

I can't speak for other British or English women as I've always been a bit of a rebel (hehe! yeah right) but for my own part (unless being sworn *at* in an actively aggressive fashion) I take sweary words quite lightly. I swear casually myself too, though I'm not a big 'cunt' fan either TBH (and I'd disagree with MtheGM that it's equal in stregth to 'Turd', which one would use in most company!), it's not something that distresses me.

Otherwise, I think there is a 'cultural divide' going on here. One which the American community appear to be having increasing difficulty with. For my own part, I feel that Max's (however "displeased" he states he currently is with his experiment) 'anarchy' is fulfilling itself in a fairly good way. Individuals are free here to express themselves without being *too* oppressed.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:53 PM

"My perception is based on my own observation."

You must mix with some very odd people, then. Or perhaps, like a drunk with a lamp post, you are using your observations more for support than illumination.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

That is as may be, Crow Sister, but I would ask- when a man is upset with another man, why he doesn't use words that are male oriented? My take on it is that the man thinks of women as being weaker in both the physical and the political sense, less brainy, more pms-y, not-quite-as-valuable as men.

I am genuinely curious.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:12 PM

Ebbie - my take on that would have much more to do with Western *cultural* taboo of (feminine) genital swear words, than gender based equivalent taboos.

As a *very* amateur assessment I'd suggest that female sexuality and sexual parts have been historically repressed and treated as being more 'sensitive' than male. I suspect that could have much to do with the de-sexualisation (aka: dis-empowering?!) of women culturally and historically: In African story & myth for example female genitalia & sexuality is treated more err 'creatively'

This perversely or ironically rendering those taboo words referencing female sexuality or sexual organs more *potent* than male ones!

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:49 PM

Hmmmmm

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:58 PM

They are only words Ebbie, tho' like you I have often wondered at men who use the words for female genitalia as terms of abuse.

I'm a builder and at work hear foul language all the time and truly, it is "only words"
Men do often use dick , prick, or ballbag to describe others who they perceive to have done or said something stupid.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:33 AM

For those who have said, or done, something stupid, I reckon "arsehole" takes some beating.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM

It isn't very common, but in my circle the term 'wankstain' is very useful as a withering put-down.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:56 AM

'Spunk-Bubble' serves well in that way too.
('Spunk' used in its UK-sense, not in its US-meaning).

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

Spooky - my lot uses that one too.

Do we know each other?????

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 07:42 AM

I have a friend who, when someone has made a cock-up, says: "Well, you made a total barn's arse of that – it's a complete bugger's muddle".

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM

I `ad that Lizzie Cornish in my cab the other day. She was cursing and carrying on alarming about about some blokes in the City `oo `ad made a bob or two on investments.
I said, "What`s up Liz?. `Sounds like you aint got much time for them mechant bankers".
She said, " Nor `ave I, Jim. The Tossers. All sitting round there , smarmy like, pocketting the filthy lucre like its going out of fashion".
I said, "But Liz. If it wasn`t for all them chancing their arm on ventures, we may never `ave `ad things like telephones, cheap `olidays, bikes, denims, musical instruments and all the rest of it. And us all buying the stuff. Where would we be then?"
She said, "Yeah. I `spose so Jim. I `adn`t thought of that!!"

Whaddam I like??.

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Smedley
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:58 AM

Is that a preview of the next episode of The Archers ??

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM

We do not know, Mr James the Well-Informed; so please do tell us — what ARE you like?

Subject: RE: Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed & Foul Language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 01:15 PM

And in the spirit of the thread...

Change hands!