BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs

Subject: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

I found this on the net today. Interesting reading.

More than one in 10 British Muslims think the perpetrators of the London bombings last year should be regarded as martyrs, according to an opinion poll.

Some 1,131 Muslim adults were questioned by phone and online in the first half of June by the Populus organisation for The Times and ITV television, in what the newspaper called the biggest-ever pulse-taking of the nation's 1.6 million strong Muslim community.
Fifty-six percent thought Prime Minister Tony Blair's government was not doing enough to combat extremism in the Muslim community, while 65 percent thought the Muslim community needed to do more to integrate itself into "mainstream British culture".

Seventy-nine percent said there were no circumstances that would justify suicide bombings in Britain against military targets, and 78 percent said they would be angry to learn that a close family member had joined Al-Qaeda.
Eighty-seven percent disagreed when asked if the four British Muslims who carried out the July 7, 2005 attacks on three London subway trains and a double-decker bus, killing themselves and 52 others and injuring more than 700, "should be considered martyrs".

But The Times said the 13 percent who felt that they should be seen as martyrs represented a "significant minority", as did the 16 percent who believed that, while the attacks were wrong, the cause was right.

"These results show that there are people within the Muslim communities who are so far away from the mainstream of society, as well as the mainstream of British Muslims, that they think that they are at war with the rest of the community," it quoted Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:06 AM

The title should have read martyrs, not marty, which is just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:19 AM

Why are ALL your posts intended to stir up racial trouble? Why not post something about music, or at least something that's not bile- filled? In short, why don't you f*** off and die?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

Why are ALL your posts intended to stir up racial trouble?

Huh? (1) To quote an opinion poll (about Bush or whatever) is a standard opening of Mudcat threads.
(2) Muslims are not a race
(3) The 'ALL' is simply wrong as a quick search shows. Penguin Egg has often posted on music threads.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM

Islam is a religion, not a race, so how am I racist? If I was to attack the neo-con religious right, would you say that I was filled with bile. I have said this elsewhere and I will say it again. I dislike Islam because of what it turns people into. Think of the fatwah against Rushdie and the silence of the majority of Muslims on the subject. Think of the bombings in Spain and London, not to mention the countless suicide bombers in Israel. Think of the murder of Theo van Gogh. Think of their barbaric practices, such as the stoning to death of adulterous in Muslim countries-or their gruesome public executions. Think how Muslims managed to intimidate this country into not showing those Belgium cartoons. Think how the left wing in this country derides the religious right and yet gives support to Muslims in this country, who often have an equally reactionary agenda.

We have to face up to Islam. To do otherwise is to bury our heads in the sand while they drag us into some medieval theocratic nightmare, out of which we might not awake.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

By the way, disliking Islam and disagreeing with Muslims is not the same thing as hating Muslims. Muslims are just people, afterall. However, I am under no obligation to like Islam. If a muslim bomber blows up a bus full of Israeli school children, am I suppose to try and "see it" from their point of view or otherwise keep silent?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:52 AM

not about marty wild then...?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were marty
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM

Yeah, okay. What is surprising about that statistic? I think it's quite encouraging that 9 out of 10 Muslims in the UK don't think so.

What surprises me is that a bit more than 1 out of 10 North Americans still think the Iraq War was a good and necessary idea. Like...maybe 3 out of 10. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:22 AM

Interesting things statistics, we all dip into them and take out what suits our point of view. Funny how many differing agendas the same set of statistics can justify!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM

Islam is a religion, not a race, so how am I racist?

Pure pedantry, Penguin Egg. You know full well that both religious and racial predjudice are encompassed in the term racist.

In answer to your question about a Moslem bomber blowing up a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren. No you are not supposed to keep silent. But why go into details of the perpetrators religion? After all, as you say, Islam is just a religion. Religions in themselves cannot do any harm. It is the people that do the damage. Why not just refer to these evil doers as bombers or murderers and leave religion out of it? Unless you just want to create bad feeling against that religion?

The other interesting thing about statistics, Giok, is that they can prove that nearly 50% of people are below average intelligence:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM

This is as good a place as any to record that one of the British soldiers who were killed this week in Afghanistan was himself a moslem.
Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi was born in Pakistan, close to the Afghan border.
His family say that he was proud to be a moslem and to be a British soldier. He was passionate about his mission and believed that his work would build bridges between peoples.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Micca
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:52 AM

or how about 12 1/2% of the apostles betrayed Jesus

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Micca
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

or should that read 8.3%?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

That should be 8.333333333333333333333%.

More statistics- you probably have more than the average number of legs.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

Dunno, Micca, 93.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM

Marty was a bit of a thread bomber you know...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:06 AM

I don't believe that half of all Muslims think the bombers were martyrs anyway.

(Go on, correct me someone. I dare ya!)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

Dave the self-righteous sanctimonious prigish Gnome,

The reason I mention that the bombers were Muslims was because it is significant. You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus. Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood, as we in London, Madrid, Israel, Philipines, etc. know only too well.The one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion. To ignore that is to ignore the reality of the situation. Their religion is not incidental, but fundemental to their mindset.

As for me being a racist because I dislike a religion is stupid. Religion is a body of beliefs which you can either like or dislike, rather like politics. If someone is a devout fascist, am I suppose to respect and understand their beliefs? Hardly!

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

The last posting was from me, by the way, just in case you hadn't guessed.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:38 AM

Oooooooooh (Clutching handbag to chest). Been reading a dictionary have we? Was I a bit too close to the mark when I suggested that you may just be stiring up bad feeling?

self-righteous = Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.

sanctimonious = excessively or hypocritically pious

prigish = A person who demonstrates an exaggerated conformity or propriety

Gosh, you know me so well don't you? :-) I still refer you back to your own song -

A stranger to the truth is he
There's not a lie he hasn't told.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:39 AM

Wrong avian species- more appropriately Duck Egg. Or possibly duck's arse.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

Dave the Gnome. You have not addressed a single one of the issues thatI have raised. I may reply to insults by more insults, but at least I don't lose sight of the debate. Would you like to respond or do you have nothing to say?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:55 AM

I didn't see any issues raised which were worth my time responding to. But I do suggest you look back up the thread to see who started insulting who. Not that it matters to me but it would help your arguments if you occasionaly got some things right.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

The issues that I raised were
1 that the bombers being Muslims is significant.
2That you never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up. 3That the one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion and
4 that their religion is not incidental, but fundemental, to their mindset.

I did not start the insults. That was done by that wretched Paul Burke and then by yourself. Scroll back if you do not believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

"Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood"

It is actually the only opposition, in the eyes of many people in exploited and disadvantaged countries, to expansionist, aggressive, and far more blood- soaked western free- market capitalism. It has taken the place in people's hopes occupied by communism before that was discredited by Stalinism.

You seem obsessed by suicide bombers. Try to view the suicide bit as merely a means of delivering the weapon. Then concentrate on the weapons themselves, and you will see that the west has delivered far more destruction than it has received. The big difference is that our bombers go home to their families afterwards.

But as I said at the beginning, you seem to be a most unattractive character, who only wants to stir up discord at the expense of British minorities. I think you should withdraw, and concentrate on trying to understand your neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

It's interesting, as people have stated above, how people read into things what they want, and then use that to twist.

1 in 10 DO means *EXACTLY* the same as 9 out of 10 DON'T.

I sat there this morning watching it on the BBC Breakfast News and over and over again I heard this phrase "13% of Muslims think the 7/7 bombers are martyrs!"

My head was saying "NO!!! ***87%*** think they are NOT!!!!!

I remember the IRA bombs going off in London. I heard the one the blew up the band in Regent's Park....but NEVER, for ONE second did I ever think that all the Irish were bad, or that religion was *purely* to blame for it.

I thought about the bombers, who'd been raised on HATE! Who had years and years of other people's HATE inside them! And when I recently saw one of those bombers talking to the daughter of one of is victims and heard him say "I just didn't think, I just didn't realise..." it made me realise that if you tell people long enough and hard enough to only have hate in their hearts, then that is what will happen.

PE...you have deliberately gone out of your way, imo, to once again try and stir up hatred. That is SO very, very wrong.

I'd suggest you start looking on the positive side and be thankful that 9 out of 10 muslims feel the same as you apparently do.

I'm sure though, that if you didn't have Islam to hate, you'd find something else.

Life is short my friend. Why not fill it with love and hope?

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,skua
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:19 AM

Hmmmmmmm. A penguin egg. My lucky day.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM

OK - seeing as have gone to the trouble of detailing the points you wish me to address I will.

1 that the bombers being Muslims is significant.
It isn't. The fact that they are bombers is far more so. There are 2.4 billion Moslems in the world. A tiny fraction of them are bombers. The bombers have far more in common with Terrorists/Freedom Fighters from other religions than they have with the majority of Moslems.

2That you never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up.
I didn't know that Palestinian Christians were fighting for anything.

3That the one thing that unites these disparate murderers is their religion
Untrue. Many things unite them.

4 that their religion is not incidental, but fundemental, to their mindset.
It is more likely that violence is their fundematal mindset. The religion is incidental to them.

I have scrolled back. I did not cast any insults at all before you decided I was self-righteous, sanctimonious and priggish. Have a look yourself. If you insist that I did will please give me an example.

Try looking at the facts a bit more and you may even decide that most Moslems, like most people, are OK after all.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:08 AM

Paul Burke, you do have a point. The West, namely USA, has been interferring in the business of other countries since the end of World War II. With the absence of any other ideology, Islam has found a place. Despite my loathing for George Galloway, I do support him for his stand against the Iraq War and his willingness to take the fight to America itself. Yes, the West has killed more people than Muslim bombers. I don't dispute this. However, that does not mean that I have to like Islam. South and Central America has been devistated by American foreign policy and these are mainly Catholic, not Muslim, countries. So why do Muslims think that the West is waging a war against Islam? The war is not against Islam but an attempt to control resourses and markets and that is how it should be viewed. To turn it into a religous war is just plain silly. You might just as well say that the overthrow of Allende was an attack on the catholic church.

Dave the Gnome.
A small faction of Muslims may be small, but their supporters are many. Palestinian Christian are fighting for the same thing that Palestinian Muslims want-namely, a Palestinian homeland. There may be many things uniting these bombers, but the one thing that they have in common is that they are all Muslims. I know viilence is not unique to Muslims, but it does strike me as a most violent religion. It is because of their religion that they think they will go to heaven afterwards and fuck loads of virgins.

You are right about me being the first one to band about insults, for which I apologise.

Lizzie, I do like muslims. I know many and have known many for some time. It is not them I dislike, but their religion and what it makes them do. The behaviour of Muslims is unforgivable, whether it is the support for the killing of Rushdie or the suppression of the publication of the "Danish" cartoons in this country by intimidation.

What is there in Islam that I need to understand? I know that non-believers, when they die, go to hell, have their skins burnt off, and then ALLAH puts on another skin so it can be burnt off again-and this goes on for eternity. What a C**T! And people worship this creature. I tought the Old Testement God was bad enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM

Osama Bin Laden dies and goes to hell where he is greeted by the devil. The devil tells him, "Since you are such an evil son of a b1tch, you get a choice of what you want to do down here but whomever you relieve gets a second chance at life." So he takes Osama to the first room where there is a man digging a hole.

Osama thinks, "I'm not good at digging" so he asks, "What else do you have?"

The devil takes him to another room where there is a man chopping a tree down with endless trees in sight.

"I'm not good at this either, so what else do you have?"

He is taken to the next room where Bill Clinton is tied down with Monica giving him a blow job.

"Hey, this looks like it might really be fun " he says. "This is what I want"

"Are you sure?" asks the devil.

"Yes! This is definitely what I want." says Osama.























So the devil turns and says "OK, Monica, you can go now!"

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:20 AM

You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus.

This is entirely false. There have been Palestinians Christians who have committed suicide bombings.

Many suicide bombers are not Muslims. Suicide bombing is the product of occupation of countries by foreign governments. It is not a product of religion.

Your blatant racism, on the other hand... what should we attribut that to?

Here's a little exercise for your apparently feeble brain... if one in ten people from your part of the world were racists, would we be able to extrapolate that being from your part of the world caused people to become racist?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:24 AM

Carol C, I take issue with you about many suicide bombers not being Muslim. If they did not feel that they were going to heaven afterwards, they would plant the bomb and then walk away from it.

What evidence to you have for my racisim and which race is the object of my racism?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Muslims are a race, now? I thought they were just another form of sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Thanks for the apology, Penguin Egg. It was not necessary but appreciated all the same.

I still think you are wrong in your responses though. You say 'their supporters are many' but in the title of your own thread it is apparant that 90% do not support them. Of the 10% that consider the bombers martyrs there is no indication whether they believe martyrdom is a good or bad thing either.

I believe that Palestinian Christians are not fighting for a homeland becasue they believe they already have one. Palestine!

Islam is not the only thing that these bombers have in common. I tried to say before, not very sucessfuly, that the main thing sets them apart from the rest of the world is not that they are Moslems but that they are murderers.

Finaly it is not religion that has made them violent. No amount of religion can turn a man of peace into a man of hate. These men and women were violent to begin with. Give them an excuse, any excuse, to kill and they will. They are doing exactly the same thing that our leaders are doing. None of it is about religion or the war on terror or homelands. It is about money, power and greeed.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martys
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:30 AM

"The war is not against Islam but an attempt to control resourses and markets and that is how it should be viewed."

Absolutely correct! Religion is being cynically used as a means of emotionally manipulating people in this war. The USA used it to raise Mujahedin to fight the Russians in Afghanistan and to destabilize and eventually help break up the Soviet Union. Those same Mujahedin and their idealogical friends became the roots of the Taliban and Al Queda. Many Muslims were fooled by the same propaganda that has fooled westerners...fooled into thinking it's a religious war when it's really a war, as you say, to control resources and markets. Christianity and fear of Islam are likewise used to manipulate substantial numbers of people in the USA and other more developed countries.

Bombers are equally destructive whether they fly jets for the USA and face little chance of dying...or whether they commit suicide by strapping explosive to their bodes and blowing themselves up on buses. The resultant effect upon their victims is very similar...their victims are blown up or maimed...and their friends and families mourn and may become radicalized to join the conflict.

Religion is a red herring that has been cleverly used to manipulate populations in what is a war for strategic and very pragmatic concerns.

Does the Muslim faith lend itself to extremism more than some other faiths? Yes...probably...it appears to do so with some of its followers. No doubt about that. It does not with a many more of its followers, most of whom would rather live in peace and be left alone.

Religion itself is not the primary problem here. A ruthless campaign by western corporate interests to control oil, political jurisdictions, and commercial markets is the problem. That...and poverty itself in the more heavily affected regions.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

Gee, I wonder why the oil-rich states don't educate their populations.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:38 AM

They don't,Guest, because a poorly educated population is easier to control and dominate. And...they'd rather not spend the money to do it.

As for that, why do you think so many Americans turn out to be shockingly ignorant about the world outside the USA or even about their own geography when questioned about it by press people who do surveys on such things? For the same basic reason...they don't receive a very good education in their schools. It's too onesided and USAculture-centric. It leaves out a lot of info that might open their minds. It encourages them to become mindless consuming units...little unthinking cogs in a big buy and sell machine.

Nothings aids any totalitarian system like feeding its people a steady diet of carefully controlled, edited, and slanted information, you know...and just leaving out the parts that might get them thinking differently.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

Carol C, I take issue with you about many suicide bombers not being Muslim. If they did not feel that they were going to heaven afterwards, they would plant the bomb and then walk away from it.

You can take issue with it if you want to, but you cannot alter it because it is a fact. A reward in the afterlife is not the main motivation for people to commit suicide bombings. Hopelessness and dispair, and trying to make life better for their families and friends is the main motivator for suicide bombings. They don't walk away from it because holding the bomb when it goes off is a much more effective way to accomplish the objective than to just leave the bomb somewhere and walk off.

Your racism is eclipsed only by your ignorance (and feeble-mindedness).

What evidence to you have for my racisim and which race is the object of my racism?

Main Entry: (3)race
Function: noun

2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b ; a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

And the evidence is your blanket criticism of Islam, even when the statistics you have provided yourself show that the majority of Muslims do not do, or even approve of, the things you are citing as evidence of what is wrong with Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: nutty
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

Can someone PLEASE put the correct title on this thread .....

9 OUT OF 10 BRITISH MUSLIMS ABHOR THE ACTIONS OF LONDON BOMBERS

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM

Revenge and a sense of powerlessness are the main motivations for such acts as suicide bombing in my opinion. You don't need religion in order to want revenge. You just need a grievance. The war is not about religion. It's about resources and markets. Religion is an excuse to fool people into fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:57 AM

I believe that Palestinian Christians are not fighting for a homeland becasue they believe they already have one. Palestine!

Dave, Palestinian Christians are fighting for a homeland... one that is free from military occupation. Just as the Palestinian Muslims are. I don't know where you get your information, but wherever it is, you are definitely not getting the full story.

Personally, I tend to suspect that the racist governments of the UK and the US (and a few other governments) are keeping people ignorant of the facts, because it is much easier to promote their racist agendas if people don't know the truth. And you can be sure that promoting racism against Muslims is the agenda they are trying to promote.

This thread (and your lack of awareness of what Christian Palestinians want) is a testament to their success.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

Thanks, Carol, much appreciated. I guess they just don't get the publicity that the Palestinian Moslems get. Couldn't be anything to do with our wonderful free press could it? :-0

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

If you want to see a well controlled and orchestrated media, Dave, live in the USA for a year or two and watch their mainstream TV and read their mainstream papers. Immerse yourself in the collective fantasy for a bit.

A bit like Germany in the late 30's, to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

CarolC, Islam contains many races, including those of the English race. Your definition did not mention religion, so I still do not understand why you think that this is about race and not about a body of ideas which I happen to dislike, in the same way I dislike christianity, communisim, and fascism. My feeble-mindedness is something that I have leant to live with.

I would like to know where you got your information that suicide bombers are not necessarily Muslims? You may be right, but I don't think you are. Islam has a long (and bloody) history of dying for your religion of which the suicide bombers would be the latest chapter for that. Christians would not do it because they believe that suicide is a sin. However, I do agree with you that desperation is the main determination, but it is Islam that gives it justification. That is why I do not like Islam.

I feel that I should say that I believe that most Muslims do not support terrorism and that the suicide bombers are an aberation. But 10% is a large minority. It has me worried.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:06 PM

Again, due to me feeble-mindedness, I forgot to mention my name.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:23 PM

I think suicide is normally considered a sin in the Muslim religion too. After all, like Christianity, the Muslim religion is based on rules of conduct written in the Old Testament (+ the life and teachings of Mohammed). The same basic moral codes were originally laid down for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...in the Old Testament...by the same group of prophets. They all consider suicide a sin.

The fact that some Muslims have rationalized themselves around that somehow means just this: they're just as prone to rationalism and hypocrisy as the rest of us are! ;-)

They're just as able to reinterpret their own holy books as the rest of us are.

Nothing unusual about that.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

Race can mean biological factors, and it can mean sociological factors, according to the definition I provided. Religion falls under the umbrella of sociological factors, so it is covered in the definition I provided.

The Tamil Tigers are made up of people of several religions as well as people who are secular and atheistic. The Tamil Tigers have been using suicide bombing as a strategy for decades...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/ltte.htm

And as I said before, there have been Christians who have committed suicide bombings in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Do you have any supporting 'documentation' for Christian Palestinians being suicide bombers?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

My argument is against Islam as a set of ideals. CarolC, you are knitpicking. I clicked onto your link and it said nothing about the religion of the Tamils who carried out suicide bombings. My guess is that they are muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:46 PM

I guess I'd title the thread "Only 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs," but I don't really have a problem with Penguin Egg's title. But since we apparently have 90 percent that disagree with terrorism, it seems to me that means we have to stop making rash generalizations about Musilims, and we have to start treating them with the respect due to fellow human beings.
Maybe we need to have peace and respect and tolerance as our uppermost priorities. Maybe victory is not an option for either side, and we should start looking for other solutions. Is that subversive for me to say that?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

PE,could you also concentrate on bombing, and not on suicide. Then you'll get a clearer picture.

Thousands of American, and dozens of British citizens have been killed or injured by bombs in New York and London.

Even before the Iraq war (which resulted from those bombings, even though Iraq was an irrelevancy), thousands of Iraqi civilians had been killed and injured as a result of British and American bombing, which had proceeded continuously for ten years. Many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were harmed by British and American inspired sanctions.

To reiterate: you're no less dead if the bomber is in an aeroplane.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM

Paul Burke,

I have no argument with you on your last post. I am not here to defend american and british imperalism.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

You never get Palestinian Christians blowing themselves up on a bus.

However you get Christians perpetrating plenty of atrocities in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Northern Ireland, etc, etc within the last 20-30 years.

Also note that you don't get Palestinian Muslims taking over Jewish-owned land at gunpoint and building fortified settlements there.

Islam is an agressive and expansionist religion with a history soaked in blood, as we in London, Madrid, Israel, Philipines, etc. know only too well.

Compare to Christianity, which has *such* a history of love and tolerance behind it, right? Yugoslavia, Rwanda, etc, etc as above - never mind what fun we could have if we go back 60-70 years to the Nazis, or further back to what they got up to during the Middle Ages until the Enlightenment put a serious cap on what the church could get away with. And as for "expansionist" - what do you think the multi-million-dollar recruiting trips by fundamentalist preachers to places like Eastern Europe are for? Or by all previous Christian missionaries?

And then we get onto treatment of other minorities - murder of doctors in clinics that carry out abortions, murder of homosexuals, etc. These are all things which fundamentalist Christians are famous for.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think there's anything wrong with Christianity, or even with fundamentalist Christianity. But we can say is that anyone who thinks their brand of religion gives them carte blanche to kill everyone who disagrees with them is a right bastard. And all they're accomplishing by trying to defend the Gates of Heaven against the rest of the world is ensuring that they're not going to be getting in...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

Heaven? Heaven??

Describe it.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

Heaven: No TV. No fast food. No advertising. Good weather and lots of fresh fruit to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:09 PM

Just goes to show that this is a war we cannot win.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,urban northerner
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM

forget polls and news propaganda. those of us who live cheek by jowl with muslim communities have known the score for years.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

How many Christians think that American soldiers are heroes? Probably more than 1 in 10. They are all fighter who died 'gloriously' for their country are they not? Why pick on Muslims when 90% do not support suicide bombers? Should I assume that all Christians support the bombing of Iraq?

This war is not about Christians and Muslims. This war is about politically domination of another country through military force.

How would Christians in America feel if Iraq invaded America because Bush was a bad man who tortured and killed? I think you might find a few fanatics willing to strap on a bomb to oppose the occupation. Although I despise Bush, I might be willing to sacrifice myself for the sake of my country. What about you?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

Go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

No. You first. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

CarolC,

"This is entirely false. There have been Palestinians Christians who have committed suicide bombings."

Example, please?

The only Palestinian Christians I personnaly know were driven out of Ramallah by the moslems back in 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine is a "secular, Marxist-Leninist, nationalist Palestinian organization", which was founded and headed (until the year 2000) by Dr. George Habash, a Palestinian, Greek Orthodox Christian.

The PFLP has claimed responsibility for numerous "terrorist attacks", including suicide bombings.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

Here's some more information about Christian Palestinians, in particular, the fact that many were driven out of their homes and lands by Zionists...

"At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians of Palestine numbered some 350,000. Almost 20 percent of the total population at the time, they constituted a vibrant and ancient community; their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost. Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was "a land without a people for a people without a land." Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians�7 percent of the total number of refugees and 35 percent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.

In the process of "Judaizing" Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries, and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. In one of the most spectacular attacks on a Christian target, on May 17, 1948, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with about 100 mortar rounds�launched by Zionist forces from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. The bombardment also damaged St. Jacob�s Convent, the Archangel�s Convent, and their appended churches, their two elementary and seminary schools, as well as their libraries, killing eight people and wounding 120."

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-06-05-opcom_x.htmF

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM

CarolC,

An example of a Christian suicide bomber, please?


"driven out of Ramallah by the moslems back in 1948."
"Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christiansï¿"

Do you have a breakdown of HOW MANY of those 50,000 Christians were driven out by Jews, and how many by Moslems?


"Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was "a land without a people for a people without a land." "

And Arab doctrine has been the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

How does this help lead to a viable solution to the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

There's no point arguing with CarolC about suicide bombers. After all, they are her personal friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

And Arab doctrine has been the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

This has been the doctrine of some Arabs, but hardly all. The fact that you are not able to make distinctions between various people's whom you lump all together in one big group and tar with the same broad brush is proof that the racist propaganda of the US, the UK and various other countries has been successful on you as well.

And what has all of that got to do with the racist propaganda that started this thread?

An example of a Christian suicide bomber, please?

I'm still working on finding specific information. I have read reports of there having been Christian suicide bombers, but I have not yet found specific information about individuals.

However, the presence of the PFLP, a secular organization with Christian members (along with people of other religions, and of no religion), is certainly proof enough that even the suicide bombers in the Middle East are not motivated by Islamic ideology, but rather by political concerns. And that is relevant to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

Suicide bombers strike unexpectedly from the shadows. So do nameless, faceless posters on this forum...like the last one.

And both with the same intention: to assassinate someone who is most likely innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

My argument is against Islam as a set of ideals. CarolC, you are knitpicking. I clicked onto your link and it said nothing about the religion of the Tamils who carried out suicide bombings. My guess is that they are muslims.

Of course you woud guess that, because you have a racist idology against Muslims.

"Most Tamils are Hindus, but Islam and Christianity also have a long history in Tamil Nadu. According to popular legend, the last Chera king is said to have converted to Islam and travelled to Arabia to become a companion of Muhammad, and the mother of one of the early Pallava kings is believed to have been Christian. Native Tamil Christianity was entirely replaced by European Christianity during the 16th century, and most Tamil Christians today are either Catholic or Protestant. Jainism was at one time a major religious force in Tamil Nadu, but it declined substantially during the Pallava period, and there are now only a few thousand Tamil Jains."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_people

Islam doesn't have an ideology that embraces suicide bombings. Suicide bombings are against the religion of Islam, and there is absolutly nothing in the Quran that says anything at all about rewarding suicide bombers in the afterlife.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

Do you have a breakdown of HOW MANY of those 50,000 Christians were driven out by Jews, and how many by Moslems?

I haven't seen a breakdown of the numbers, but according to the following, most of the Christian Palestinian who were made refugees as a result of the 1948 expulsion of Palestinians from their homes and villages ended up in the same camps as the Muslim Palestinians. In the case of those Palestinians, the expulsions were clearly the work of Zionists, and not Muslims.

"A majority of fifty-six percent of Palestinian Christians are found outside of their country. This situation of out-migration resulted from the exodus of 726,000 Palestinian refugees in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35 percent of all Christians in pre1948 mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees'. In 1996, these refugees and their descendants are spread over the entire Middle East but primarily in the sixty refugee camps dotting the topography of the West Bank (19 refugee camps); Gaza Strip (8 refugee camps); Jordan (10 refugee camps); Syria (10 refugee camps) and Lebanon (13 refugee camps)."

More on the religion of the Tamils...

"Ceylon became a British colony in 1796. But long before the British arrived, the country consisted of two separate cultures, each with its own language, religion, and customs. The majority is composed of Sinhalese, who live in the west, south, and center of the island. Their name means "of the lions," and they are primarily Buddhist.

Tamils (primarily Hindu) make up a smaller portion of the population, and have traditionally lived in the east and north. Many Tamils from India were relocated into Sinhalese areas by the British during the early 19th century, nearly doubling the number of Tamils on the island. They were employed as cheap laborers on the tea plantations. At the time of independence, there were about 4.6 million Sinhalese and 1.5 million Tamils."

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel_gallant_eisen200403030918.asp

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:45 PM

Suicide tactics are NOT the exclusive property of any religion. They are the tactics of those who lack the necessary military power to successfully attack and damage a hated enemy by conventional means.

And that is why thousands of Buddhist and Shinto Japanese launched suicide attacks on the Allies in WWII...attacks which did far more damage than conventional air attacks could possibly have accomplished at that point in the war.

Suicide attacks are not a product of religion, they are a product of bitterness and sheer desperation in the face of a far better armed opponent.

Israelis would launch suicide attacks too...if the shoe was on the other foot, and they were outgunned to the point where they could not possibly win on the conventional battlefield. Jews killed themselves en masse at Masada, when trapped by the Romans. Remember? They were the powerless ones then. They and the USA HAVE the power in that region now. It is those under the heel of that power who will launch suicide attacks, not the Israelis or the Americans...who don't NEED to.

It is the virtually powerless who launch suicide attacks. Period. Against the powerful. And so it has always been.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

>>Of course you woud guess that, because you have a racist idology against Muslims.<<

When did Muslims become a race?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:51 PM

Heh! Aren't the technicalities of language a wonderful thing, 282AR? You are of course, correct. Muslims are not a race, they are a cultural group with a common religious background. Same as Jews. We've had that discussion here many times in the case of the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM

But not the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:18 PM

Isrealis aren't a race either. They're a nationality...with a very strong cultural identity.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:14 PM

When did Muslims become a race?

See the dictionary definition of "race" that I put in my 04 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM post.

"Race" is a tricky word. It's meaning is always subjective, even when it is being used to try to define biological differences between people. There really is no scientific way to define "race".

The dictionary is a pretty good authority on how words are used, and I have no problem with accepting it's definitions for the word race.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM

Carol, with all due respect, I think your dictionary is racist.

"...a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)."

Race is not synonymous with culture and there are all social classes within a culture. There is absolutely no such thing as the English race. Just because you share common values with a certain class of people does not mean you are from the same culture or from the same race. In fact, science tells us there is no such thing as race.

Race is a word that means absolutely nothing, anymore. The only time that word is used is to separate and divide humanity. It is a negative, social construct.

I am surprised that you would use a definition that is so obviously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM

dinavan, you are implying that if race means nothing, that racism means nothing. In genetic terms, race has never meant anything as regards humans. In terms of people's responses to perceived differences, race and racism still are among the most potent destructive forces in the world. Ask anyone over 50 in Alabama, anyone over 20 in Bosnia, ask in Rwanda, South Africa, Bradford, Paris or any of a thousand other places.

So NOBODY is a member of a race other than the Human race, but of course people can have racist reactions to the alien they see in others. I can't tell a Serb from a Croat, or a Hutu from a Tutsi, but they want to and can. I dare say that the hypothetical visitor from Mars couldn't tell a Swede from a Bushman without careful study.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:48 AM

To get back on topic, can someone explain to those apologists who turn the statistic around, that it still doesn't sound too good?

I believe the actual figure was 13% for and 87% against. That worries the hell out of me - that only 87% of these people who live alongside us actually abhor the bombings? It should be ALL British Muslims who abhor the bombings - anybody who has any level of support for such atrocities should be rounded up and dealt with, imho.

13% in favour of the indiscriminate murder of innocent, non-military people is to me a horrendous statistic and I worry that some of you think it seems OK by you.

And burying your head in the sand by trying to pretend it isn't the religion which influences it is about as childish as ..... a really, really childish thing.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:29 AM

9 out of 10 Humans think that muslims are pieces of fermenting leper shit that should be exterminated!

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

More importantly, 5½ out of 6 Republicans think that George Dumbya and the BuShites are doing a wonderful job.

Now THERE'S a group motivated by a dangerous delusion with disastrous world-wide consequences.

Folks should be more conccerned about them than phantom "killer Muslims".

Then too, statistically folks are several million times more likely to die in a road accident caused by Been Drinkin' than anything put together by Bin Laden.

Helps to keep these "threats" in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

I'm pretty much in agreement with Paul Burke on this one, dianavan.

Race is a construct of the human mind. As a concept it really has no basis in reality.

However, that doesn't prevent people from practicing discrimination against others based on perceived differences.

So why do we have a word to define prejudice and discrimination against people with what we consider to be biological differences, and we have a special word to define prejudice and discrimination against the people of only one religion, both of which carry a large social stigma for those who practice these forms of prejudice and descrimination, but we have none for this one category of people (Muslims), that carries no social stigma at all when it is practiced?

That in itself is racist (which I would argue is being practiced whenever a group of people is being treated as if they belonged to a separate race, regardless of whether or not they actually do).

Our society has created a category of people who are being robbed of their humanity in every possible way. They can be imprisoned under a special category created just for them ("enemy combatant") that isn't entitled to any of the legal protections that the rest of us enjoy. They can be discriminated against in every possible way and there is no social stigma whatever for those who practice this discrimination, and there is no word that carries any social stigma to describe those who practice this discrimination. That in itself is racism because it treats them as if they were a separate race, regardless of whether or not they actually are.

And since we agree that there really is no such thing as "race", even racism against people who are percieved to be biologically a different race falls into that same category... people being treated as if they belonged to a different race (but don't really, because there is no such thing as "race"). Why would you deny only one group of people the right to have the protections offered by a word like "racism", dianavan? It seems to me that it is your approach that is racist, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

Terry, I ask you the same question that I asked Mr. Egg.

If 13 percent (your number) of the people from your part of the world were racists, could we extrapolate that being from your part of the world causes racism?

And as our persistant GUEST has shown us, there are people in the US and the UK who think ALL Muslims should be exterminated. In fact, I encounter such people quite regularly. Maybe we should do a survey to find out what percentage of people feel this way. Based on my experiences it is a "significant and frightening" percentage of the people in those countries. So using your and Mr. Egg's line of reasoning, we can extrapolate that a "significant and scary" percentage of people in the US and the UK are really Nazis deep down in their precious little hearts, and so therefore being from those places causes people to become Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:53 AM

You're quite right, Dianavan, that "racism" is a word used these days mainly just to divide people. I'm very, very tired of hearing people accuse other people of racism....or sexism, for that matter.

(Not that those aren't real problems...I've just tired of those words being taken in vain by people just to harass and intimidate other people, and that's what I usually see being done when the word "racism" comes up in conversation.)

We all belong to one race: the Human race.

It is said that healthy minds look first at the similarities between various people, while the unhealthy minds focus instead on the differences. Every demagogue who wishes to divide people knows this...and it is the differences that he will harp upon and harp upon endlessly, in hopes that those differences will enable him to foment hostility, and to divide and conquer.

This is as true of Mullahs in Iran as it is of the Bush administration. They both play the divide and conquer game on people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:04 PM

You might feel differently, LH, if you belonged to any of the groups you are tired of hearing about. But you don't. You belong to the most protected category of people on earth. It's easy to be nonchalant under your circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:12 PM

Well, that depends where I am on any given day, Carol. ;-) Some places are safer than others.

My point was not intended to be aimed against you. It was merely a philosophical dissertation on the extreme overuse and irresponsible misuse of the words "racist" and "racism" in contemporary dialogue. It gets hurled at people capriciously and maliciously, often with no real justification...and it has been used many times as a weapon to destroy the careers of people who in fact were NOT any more racist than were their accusers...maybe less so. It has been used to blackmail people.

Kind of like the word "anti-semitism". Same deal. Think about it.

Remember how they "played the race card" in the O.J. Simpson trial? Did that do anything to further the cause of social justice? Not in my opion, it didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM

Sometimes they are used for self-serving purposes. And sometimes they offer people much needed protections. I just think those protections should be available to everyone, and not just certain categories of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:33 PM

Carol - one question - do you think I am wrong to be appalled that 13% of British Muslims are in support of the bombers?

OK - another one. Do you think I am wrong to be appalled that apparently quite a number of people on this board think it's an acceptable number?

(I don't even begin to understand the motivation behind your amazing hyperbole on racism).

And the 13% is not my number - it's the number the Times reported.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Agreed, Carol. Those protections should be equally available to everyone.

Guest - No, you're not wrong to be appalled about that. Neither are most Muslims wrong to be appalled at what the USA and Israel have done and are doing in the Middle East. Neither is Israel wrong to be appalled by suicide bombers who kill Israelis. Neither are Muslims wrong to be appalled by some of the vicious things people are saying about them on this forum and eslewhere. EVERYONE has good reason to be appalled by the whole mess, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:23 PM

1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs

the other 9 think they are idiots

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM

No, I don't think you are wrong to be appalled by those numbers. But I do think that where you are wrong is in the conclusions you are drawing from those numbers.

Instead of being appalled that 13 percent of Muslims in the UK are so upset with Western governments because of the wholesale slaughter of Muslims by those governments, and the unending support those governments are giving to some of the most repressive and cruel regimes in the world, that they see tactics like suicide bombing as the only viable way to bring an end to this wholesale slaughter and loss of liberty, you appear to be appalled that these people are responding with the only tools available to them.

Why do you consider the lives and liberty of non-Muslim Westerners to have more value than the lives and liberty of the Muslims in the parts of the world where the Western governments are interfering and causing such wholesale loss of life and liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:37 PM

Warning - thread drift.

"you are implying that if race means nothing, that racism means nothing."

I am implying no such thing. Racism certainly does exist but it does not mean that the word 'race' (or its derivatives), is a word I would use. As soon as that word is used (in whatever context) it gives credibility to the concept.

Of course discrimination, stereotyping and prejudice exist. We are taught to discriminate at a very early age. Stereotyping and prejudice, however, are negative and devisive. Why not use the words stereotype and prejudice instead of labelling someone or something as 'racist'.

If, however, I were Afro-American, I might be tempted to use the term to describe a person who had stereotyped me or acted against me in a prejudicial manner. I think, however, in an attempt to erradicate 'racism' against me and my people, I would try to rise above using the same tool that was used against me. I would not claim racism but would be more specific and use the term to describe the behaviour of the person as stereotyping or prejudicial.

Like I said, as soon as the word is used (in whatever form) we make what is essentially a false construct, a reality.

The dictionary that Carol used as a source carries this negative concept one step further to describe a certain 'class' of people as belonging to a certain race, "...a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics." I'd say thats a pretty broad definition.

Does that mean that everyone who has an income of $300,000.00 and has season tickets to the opera belong to a specific race? Seems to me that many groups of people have common interests, characteristics and habits. That doesn't make them a specific 'race'. The "English race" is a particularly bad example. Its actually laughable. There is absolutely no such thing. Time to get a new dictionary.

I've argued this point before and don't expect many converts so you can use whatever language you want. Just remember that your language is a method of telling people who you are. I have dropped the term from my language as I do not wish to perpetuate the myth or to indicate to others that I believe there are separate races.

Muslims are not a race, they are members of the same religion. Religion is a small part of a culture. Culture includes religion, language and a set of common beliefs handed down from generation to generation. I can, however, be a non-Muslim living in the middle east and still share the same language and beliefs. I don't have to be Muslim to live in the Middle East, speak Farsi and believe the Yankees should go home.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Funny thing. Yesterday, our son and his wife came over for a cookout. Both of our sons by my wife's first marriage are Muslim. They often come to hear my Gospel group perform, or to hear their sister, who is a Baptist Minister preach. We support our Muslim sons as well, by attending banquets and programs they present. A month or so ago, we went to a wonderful banquet honoring women who have worked hard to make the community a better place. There were six recipients of the award, more than half of them white non-muslims. Yesterday our son brought over the front page of the Muslim paper in this area, and there in prominent placement was a photograph of my wife and I sitting at a table reserved by the Amman (not sure of the spelling, and I don't feel like going upstairs.

Statistics are great. They can be manipulated to support almost any opinion. They may even be accurate within a particular area of a country (or even a whole country.) It's when they become blanket statements that they become ignorant.

Shalom!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM

Why not use the words stereotype and prejudice instead of labelling someone or something as 'racist'.

Because these words carry very little social stigma, and are therefore pretty useless for the purpose of bringing about conditinos of social justice. And that is what we all want... right?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:46 PM

Salaam too.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:54 PM

I agree with you 100% on this one, Dianavan. I think that "racism", these days, is a word that is being used far too often by far too many people and not usually for any good reason. And I think the same about the word "anti-semitism".

Call prejudice what it is: prejudice. Don't stigmatize other people by calling them by a specially nasty word that paints them or their behaviour as utterly evil and beyond the pale. It doesn't help establish a dialogue, it just leads to a lot of screaming and finger-pointing.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

Yes, we all want social justice but I don't think it can be achieved by using the tools that were used against us to hammer the other side. The only way to overcome is to rise above. A socially just society would not emphasize differences or perpetuate division. The goal would be to treat all people as human beings.

Just because equality does not exist, does that mean we should stop striving to attain equality? There is not much that I can do as an individual but I do have the ability to change my language. You can use whatever terms of reference you want.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

I disagree, LH.

The words "racism" and "anti-Semitism" have served as very useful tools in the efforts to bring about greater social justice in many parts of the world. Yes, it is possible to misuse them, but not having the use of them at all would be far more counterproductive.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

Carol - I still think you need a new dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:07 PM

A socially just society would not emphasize differences or perpetuate division. The goal would be to treat all people as human beings.

A worthy goal, but we're not there yet. And one of the reasons so many people don't see anything wrong with practicing the kind of prejudice and discrimination toward Muslims that we see all over the place in the Western part of the world today, including this thread, is because people don't perceive any social stigma attached to having such attitudes. People who wouldn't dream of holding such attitudes towards people of a different color or towards Jews, see absolutely nothing wrong with holding such attitudes towards Muslims. Until our society attaches a social stigma to such attitudes when displayed towards Muslims, the problem will continue to get worse rather than better. It appears to be the only way to fight these things.

It worked for the Civil Rights Movement in the US and in South Africa. It worked in helping to change attitudes towards Jews all over the world. It will work to help bring about a change in attitudes towards Muslims as well.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

Who wants social justice? How many of you give it lip service and how many of you actively work for it?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

Here is what the online dictionary says about race:

"A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
"A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
"A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.
"Biology.
"An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
"A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
"A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine."

According to that, one might easily refer to the 'English race' or to the 'Canadian race' or the 'Amish race', inexact as it may be.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

Yes, according to that definition, you "might easily refer to the 'English race' or to the 'Canadian race' or the 'Amish race,'..." but you'll never hear me using those terms.

"a subspecies"? When was this dictionary published?

Yes, Carol, in a court of law it might be useful but I think other terms would be more accurate.

In everyday discourse it serves only to perpetuate the myth of separate 'races' or 'subspecies'. This assumes that one group of people are superior to another which is a lie. In terms of power, there is definitely a dominate group of people but it is not defined by 'race'. Those people are usually white, male, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. It does not mean they are a sub-species or a separate 'race'. Members of the dominant group can also be of any colour, any religion and any cultural background. It would be a stereotype to say they were all the same.

It does mean that in terms of social justice, there is a dominant group who has to become more inclusive. We can help foment change by denying the existence of separate 'races' and recognizing the many factors that contribute to lack of opportunity and poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

Terry, you are right. 13% is too high a number. I won't point out what already has been about the why's and wherefores but I must take you up on the point about it not being about religion.

I don't think anyone would deny that there is a seeming abundance of Moslem bombers - But only 15 years ago the ones being reported on, around here anyway, were all Christian. From both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland. This spate of bombings is about as religious as those were. I don't think the 'troops' know better. I believe it is the leaders, on both sides of this war, that are using religion to wind up the perpetrators and invoke righteous indignation in the west.

I would agree that to say it is nothing to do with religion was probably a bit of an exaguration but it is certainly more to do with who holds power that who's prophet is right!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:32 PM

I could have made a pun about profits and prophets but aren't you glad I didn't:-)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

Exactly my point, Dave. The religion of a bomber is not the key factor, although it IS used to whip up people into fighting and killing.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

"Members of the dominant group can also be of any colour, any religion and any cultural background. It would be a stereotype to say they were all the same."


Yes. And either sex, too.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

For example . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

In that context, dianavan, "subspecies" is not in reference to human beings - at least not any still in existance, since there are currently no recognized subspecies of humans in existance today. In the context of that dictionary definition, the term refers to plants and non-human animals.

But to deny only Muslims the ability to use protective language while all other groups have such language as protection has the effect of being discriminatory. So until you can come up with a way to provide such protection to Muslims, you are helping to promote discrimination against Muslims when you try to discourage the use of the term "racism" to refer to discrimination against Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:12 PM

That is pedantry carried to ridiculous lengths. When groups are discriminated against, regardless of by who, it is racism. People understand the term and know what it means.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:50 PM

dianavan's contention that the "sub" in 'subspecies' is an attempt to portray one portion of a 'species' as 'inferior' is just plain weird. Where does she come up with such twaddle?

When the term 'race' is used by a biologist it means what Ebbie posted: "An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies."

Since control of such terms concerning people were put under the control of anthropologists and not biologists, a politcally correct approach has taken over. Still, a person's 'race' is entirely controlled by genetic makeup. Period.

The correct word for the concept expressed on this thread (and many others) is 'ethnic group', which can be determined by race, language, culture, country-of-origin, etc.,etc.,etc...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:57 PM

Uh-huh. Right. Yadda yadda. ;-)

Look, I know what the real problem is here. It's a *specialness* gap, that's what it is! Some people feel that other people's suffering is given more specialness than theirs is, and they are so right...because some people in this world get *special* words to describe their suffering under prejudice, while other people don't!

And that's not fair!

For example: When women are discriminated against for being female, they get to call it "sexism". That's a special word. Men might get to be discriminated against for being men sometimes too...but they don't have a special word for that. You can't call it sexism. You can't call it anything really. That's unfair.

Another example: When most people get discriminated against on the basis of race they get to call it racism...but one group, the Jews, get a special word all their own to call it: anti-semitism.

Only the Jews get their own super-special word for racism directed against them. Unfair!

No wonder the Muslims are upset.

Here's what we need to do: We need a new word, pronto. A special word. We need a special word that covers all situations where people are abusive toward Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians, all the people who follow Islam or come from an Islamic culture or group.

Ahem!

I propose: *** Anti-Islamism *** and its accompanying adjective *** Anti-Islamic ***

If these special words are made available to Muslims everywhere so they can defend their dignity and their right to live the same way Jews have been doing for a long time now, then this unfair specialness gap will be eliminated at last.

Let's do it! Henceforth, any unfair or abusive attack upon Muslims will be termed "Anti-Islamism" and the Anti-Islamic bastards responsible for it will be hounded and condemned and hounded AGAIN, just like people accused of Anti-Semitism are hounded...until they don't dare open their big mouths on the subject EVER again!!!!!!

Heh! End of story.

p.s.   (Anyone who reads the entirety of the above proposition and fails to grasp the satirical and ironic intentions behind it, and completely misses what I am trying to say, is probably a "complete and utter tosser" a dunderhead and a prat...and they can stew in their own juice as far as I'm concerned.)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:09 PM

Wanted: One suicide bomber. Must be willing to work one evening a week. No overtime. Pay commensurate with experience.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:23 PM

LOL! Omigod. You are a lunatic, Peace. I think you may be verging on Anti-Islamism. If so, I am going to have to reconsider our friendship...and warn the goat to stay away from you entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

This therad has become an exercise in semantics. I freely admit to being anti-semantic.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

Don't worry. The land of Semantia was absorbed by Pedantia is the year 1203. There are no more Semantics.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:52 PM

Weren't they right near Loquacia?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:01 PM

pdq - I came up with that 'twaddle' from Carol's dictionary although I now realize it was probably not referring to humans. I disagree with your statement, "Still, a person's 'race' is entirely controlled by genetic makeup. Period." That's the point, pdq. We all have a common mother and scientifically speaking there are no races.

I also agree with LH when he says anti-Islamic would be a better term to refer to discrimination against Muslims. Muslims come in all colours, shapes and sizes and are dispersed throughout the World. They are not a specific group of people except that they share a common religion. They don't even share a common language. You can't use the term racism to explain the discrimination that exists against them. If so, we would be describing Protestants and Catholics as a race. Thats ridiculous.

LH is also right when he says that those that discrimate against Jews are not racists, they are anti-semites. Men who discriminate against women are sexists but women can also be sexists.

My question is this: If a person is discriminated against because they are 'poor', is there a term to describe those who engage in "poor bashing"? For that matter, what do you call "gay bashers"? According to many of you, they should also be called racists.

My definition of a racist is this: An ignorant human being that believes the White 'race' is superior to all others. Heil Hitler! To continue the use of the word without any scientific proof of 'races' is to perpetuate the big lie.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:54 PM

Since nobody can even agree on whether or not there is anything, intrinsically speaking, that we can call "race" (there isn't... it is a concept that was invented by the human mind), then the use of the word as defined by the dictionary, the place that tells us how words are used, is as legitimate as any other. More legitimate, in fact. The word "race", in the absence of having any intrinsic meaning, means precisely what its use would indicate.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:58 PM

My definition of a racist is this: An ignorant human being that believes the White 'race' is superior to all others. Heil Hitler! To continue the use of the word without any scientific proof of 'races' is to perpetuate the big lie.

LOL

So you agree that people of the white "race" can be racists. If you didn't, you wouldn't call them "racists" but instead, you would call them "white supremacists". Since you agree that the term "racist" can be used in the absence of any category called "race", you therefore are being inconsistant if you say it cannot be applied to any other groups of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:01 PM

That's what arguments are like. If they go on long enough, eventually everyone ends up contradicting something they themselves said at an earlier point in the same argument... ;-) I've seen it a million times. When you point it out, it really pisses them off too. (But we all do it.)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: skipy
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:42 AM

I an anti-semolina
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

Carol - I'm not saying that racist cannot be defined. Of course it can but since the foundation of the word is a lie, anyone who uses it is immediately discredited and thought to be ignorant of the facts. In other words, you either know its a false construct or you don't.

You also said, "But to deny only Muslims the ability to use protective language while all other groups have such language as protection has the effect of being discriminatory."

Thats bullshit. I don't deny anyone (Muslim or otherwise) the ability to use protective language. I do, however, wonder if Muslims want non-Muslims to determine whether or not those who discriminate against them are racist, anti-Islamist, prejudice or discriminatory. Have you ever heard a Muslim refer to their religion as a race? Have you ever heard a Muslim complain about racism?

You can use whatever language you like but whenever you attempt to speak for a group of people in an attempt to protect them, its best to know if the language you are using to describe the action is acceptable to them.

Like I said, I would not use an inaccurate word but if you want to continue to use a word to describe a false concept, go ahead, it gives the Supremacists credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:21 PM

if you want to continue to use a word to describe a false concept, go ahead, it gives the Supremacists credibility

No it doesn't. In your mind maybe it does, but not in practice. When I challenged the originator of this thread by calling him/her "racist", s/he wasn't concerned with whether or not the word "racist" gives supremacists (can't imagine why you would capitalize that word) credibility, but whether or not s/he could be accused of racism because of practicing discrimination toward Muslims.

In fact, in every thread in which discussions like this one come up, none of the other words like "discrimination", "prejudice", "bigotry", etc, have any effect. But when the word "racism" comes up, the first response is almost always an attempt on the part of the person in question to distance him or herself from the charge of being a racist. The word racist does not give supremacists credibility. But it does dissuade people from engaging in prejudicial and discriminatory practices toward groups of people.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

Yes, Carol, it's a word of extreme negative labelling. It's a word intended to intimidate and brand those it is directed at. That's why I'm getting tired of it being so frequently used in the public dialogue.

It's like calling someone a heretic during the days of the Spanish Inquisition. It immediately puts that person in the very nasty spot of trying to prove they aren't a heretic...which is not too damned easy, I can tell you... ;-) For instance, I think it is probably true that there is some degree of racial prejudice hiding in the breast of about 99.9% of the human race at any given time! Does that mean they are all "racists"? Where does "racism" begin and where does it end in that case? I think the epithet "racist" could be thrown at almost any person, if one chose to, on the basis of some preference or reaction in that person to someone or something, some idle remark they made, some choice they made, but how useful or appropriate is that? It's getting way out of hand, that's my opinion.

Look, I don't think you and Dianavan really have anything of substance to be arguing about here. You both agree that Muslims are being unfairly labelled and discriminated against by a lot of people in the media and elsewhere these days, and that this is a problem that should be addressed. Why have a big falling out over differing interpretations of the appicability of the word "racism" to the problem? What good will it do?

Why not just agree to both agree on the main point...that Muslims need to be treated as fairly as other people are. That would be more productive, would it not?

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM

Yes, we both agree on the main point.

Carol can choose to use whatever terminology she chooses to use. My posts regarding this subject are intended to explain why I choose not to use a term that has no basis in fact. I'm sure that when the term was first used, it wasn't known that science disproved the theory of separate races. I wonder how many dictionaries have been published since that discovery? I wonder how they will attempt to define it. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM

Good points for the most part, LH, but something needs to be done. People who, deep down in their hearts, don't consider themselves to be racists, and who don't want to think of themselves as racists, are nevertheless practing the exact same thing as racism only toward a group they don't consider a "race". They don't see the practice itself as being bad, they only see being put in the category called "racist" as being bad.

Even when this kind of prejudice and discrimination is being practiced against a group people don't consider to be a separate "race", it is still nevertheless the same thing as racism, and I am finding that the only way to get people to understand this is to give it the same name.

There was a time when the word "prejudice" had the same effect, but that seems to no longer be the case. So I will continue to use the word "racism" to apply to all kinds of prejudice and discrimination toward groups of people, and I will continue to defend this practice if I am challenged about it, as I have done in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:16 PM

Good points on your part also, Carol. I understand your line of reasoning perfectly.

As long as the US government and the Israeli government (and various Muslim religious zealots as well) cynically use inflammatory rhetoric to whip up people against each other over differences in culture and religion...then the type of virulent prejudice and destructive behaviour we are seeing these days will continue.

It is governments and their wealthy backers and controllers who have created these divisions, not ordinary people. Ordinary people would rather just be left alone in peace for the most part, if the great financial and political powers that be were willing to leave them alone.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:44 PM

the bombers were not muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: skipy
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

Cut the crap, wake up & smell the coffee.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

You cannot cross the globe and tell cultures of thousands of years to live in a certain manner, simple as that.

Read today that America will not put up with Korea holding weapons that could knock out thousands of lives. It said the guy in power over there is not to be trusted. To me that could also be said about Mr. Bush.

Sickening to watch tanks rolling over houses tonight on the news in the West Bank. Yes I understand a young soldier was taken hostage, but why wrecks home of people who had no part in it ? I saw two couples in their 70's crying as their homes were levelled.

In any war it's the weak that suffer first.

America cannot elect it's self the police force of the world.

Okay, I will go back to rattling on about Irish issues, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: skipy
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 07:22 PM

Guest of 06.44 identify & justify or die.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:45 AM

I suspect that skipy wouldn't have a problem if someone said that the Serb death squads, or IRA or loyalist bombers, or the Spanish Inquisition, weren't true Christians. Or perhaps that Stalin wasn't a true Communist.

Guest 06:44 might possibly say a parallel thing about killers of innocent people (including Muslims).

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Big Phil
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:14 AM

Just accept that we all have different views and opinions. ????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:35 AM

they did not kill because they were muslims. and they did not kill for islam.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:18 AM

Definitions are primarily descriptive rather than prescriptive in English dictuionarfies. They are intended to indicate what meanings a word actually has in actual use, rather than trying to adjust that meaning to meet some ideas about what the word ought to mean. If a particular current meaning is offensive or controversial, or reflects prejudiced ways of thinking indicating that fact is of course part of the definition of that word.
......................
The exact wording of questions asked in polls, and the context in which they are asked is crucial.

It would be quite possible to think that the term "martyr" was an appropriate one tomuse for the suicide bombers of July 7th, and yet be wholly opposed to what they did. It depends on how you define "martyr".

I would suspect that a good number of those who answered the question that way disapproved strongly of the bombing and of the thinking that lay behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: GUEST,spirit of st. louis
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM

Let's say that only ONE percent of Moslems approve of the recent suicide bombings. If there are 2.4 billion Moslems worldwide, that means that 24 million approve.

And if only 1/100 of one percent would become bombers themselves, there are 240,000 potentials out there at any given time. That worries me. The real numbers are probably much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:34 AM

Indeed. But in the same fashion, Muslim communities have good reason to be worried about the many millions of people who support the aggressive policies of the Bush administration, which feels it has the right to launch pre-emptive wars (meaning, to attack other people first just because you feel like it...that's what Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese did, remember?).

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:16 PM

And if only 1/100 of one percent would become bombers themselves, there are 240,000 potentials out there at any given time. That worries me. The real numbers are probably much higher.

The fact that you don't see a hell of a lot more suicide bombings by Muslims than you already do shows this from you to be the Big Lie that it is.

(Big Lie = a lie that is intended to promote hatred toward a group of people, and to make people feel less hesitant to kill members of the group in question.)

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:18 PM

...in fact, a lie like that one can have only one possible indended purpose. To make people believe that the only solution to the "problem" is to kill all members of the group in question.

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:35 PM

Yes, that would appear to be the basic rationale, wouldn't it? After all, until they are all dead...how can one feel "safe"?

It's exactly the message that Hitler gave the Germans regarding Jews and Communists...

Subject: RE: BS: 1 in 10 Muslims think bombers were martyrs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

The idea that it is somehow OK to set out to kill non-combatants on the the side is hardly restricted to suicide bombers and their fans. After all Lieutenant Calley was regarded as a kind of hero by quite a fair number of his compatriots. There was even a song saying what a great guy he was which sold a lot of copies.

And the doctrine of nuclear deterrence has always been founded on a readiness to carry out suicide bombing on an enormous scale.