BS: Old Pocket Watches

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:18 PM

I don't remember if I asked Dan this question before, but if I did, it's that old timers disease.

I have a Waltham 18 RR watch, serial number 18083153. The serial number chart is confusing to me,and I winder if you can tell me when it was made?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM

Kendall - that would date it to 1911.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:20 PM

It is model 1892 Kendall, however that model was made for quite some time so 1911 is correct from Will I think

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:58 PM

Greg, possible I guess never heard that, but all old watches have the service number scratched by the Jewelers. They wanted to keep track of the service dates and more importantly they wanted to make sure you did not take it elsewhere to be fixed and then bring it to them saying they didn't fix it right ... each Jeweler had their own system, some used numbers, others used letters and dates all are unique to that specific jeweler. I am fascinated by them as they are part of the history of the watch. My Hamilton 941 has the scratches from one of the Railroad watch inspectors

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM

Greg
your balance staff is going in the mail tomorrow bro

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM

Great Dan, thanks for the balance staff! Service above & beyond the call for sure.

I know that you're correct about the jewlers/watchmakers numbers, I'm just saying that occasionally in addition to those, you may find a pawnbroker's number as well. Guess I didn't make that clear first time around.

Be well-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 06:58 AM

757 i'M ALWAYS AMAZED AT THE NUMBER OF POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:25 PM

For many starting watch collectors, the idea of high jewels means better timekeeping. In fact it has nothing to do with the quality of the watch. Watches are fully jeweled at 17 .. all additional jewels are not related to any moving part, IE, cap jewels for oil etc. The railroads had a very close relationship with the watch companies and especially Webb C. Ball the RR watch master. He had his own company and for marketing reasons introduced higher jeweled watches "smokestack jewels" to try and out advertise the other watch companies. The other companies followed suite. The RR's then changed the standard to 21J or above. Why, well everyone would have to buy a new watch and there were kickbacks to the RR. Watches are great because and only because of the movement and the number of adjustments made to the watch. The more adjustments, the better the movement and hence the better the watch. A 17 Jeweled Hamilton 936 is a marvel of engineering at 17 Jewels. It will compete and beat 23 Jeweled watches. Why, because of the movement and the 23J watches are only really using 17 for the working movement.
As the years went on, higher Jeweled was an indication of better movement only because RR's now required 21 or above. The Jewels have nothing to do with the quality. It is all in the engineering and adjustments an old watch can make. RR grade 17J watches are a marvel and there is no difference in accuracy between a Hamilton 936 at 17J or a Hamilton 941 at 21J. all about the movement and the number of adjustments that can be made to the watch.
Likewise, 5 positions is really it. Watches with 6 positions like the 992B or Vanguard mean nothing. That 6th position is stem down and even new they only said it was good for 15 secs stem down. You don't carry a watch in that position LOL but for marketing, it sounds good

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:30 PM

Oh and you have to be careful with early high jeweled swiss watches. Many were listed at 21J but were 7 J with red glass added on the end caps to look like Jewels. We call them "swiss fakes" I pass on any early swiss watches except zenith

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:36 PM

By the way, some of the very early RR watches were 15 Jeweled like the Illinois ... but they were adjusted to 5 positions and are a sought after marvel of engineering that will kick the butt of any newer unadjusted watch with a high jewel count

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:07 PM

The Canadian RR's got it right, they accepted the RR grade 17J watches for a very long time .. because of their accuracy and knowing the higher Jeweled made no difference. Making a RR employee buy a new watch was very expensive. They cost an average of two full weeks salary in the day ..They would accept a Hamilton 972 adj 5 positions or a Hamilton 926 for a very long time as they should. I guess the watch companies didn't want to give them the kickback's or they refused them.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:32 AM

I just checked my 1911 Waltham and it is dead on.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 01:51 PM

Nothing wrong with your Illinois Captain. Ya had a hair stuck on your hairspring ... LOL ... do you own a cat LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 08:46 PM

Well I been wanting a nice Hamilton 924. Mine is a bit ratty. So I see one on ebay ... well I lost the bid .. usually if I want it I will get it but money is a factor. So I visit my Amish watchmaker and he comes out with this Hamilton 924 and gives it to me as a gift. The exact one I was bidding on cause the serial number is the same. He goes, I knew you wanted one and I wanted to get you one so I had the Englishman down the road bid on it for me on ebay ... OMG I was bidding against myself and didn't know it ... what are the odds huh .. I was stunned and what a nice thing to do for me

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:55 AM

What goes around comes around my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:54 PM

Olddude's comments re high 'jewel' count could apply to the 23-27 jewel watches now being made in China. Stauer, selling cheap jewelry and gee whizbang watches is one of the outfits selling these marvels, some under $100.
On the whole, they are clunky, and I suppose not too bad, but high jewel count does not necessarily mean precision machining and assembly.
I suckered and bought one. It runs OK, but is obviously not the best workmanship. I had to reset every week or so. I wouldn't insult the watchmaker I use by asking him to regulate it. It has resided in a desk drawer for some months now, and will never be used.

Don't sucker, a $10 Timex probably is just as accurate.

I have quit collecting pocket watches, but yes, I wouldn't mind having one of those 23j Hamilton Ball gems.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:43 AM

THREAD DRIFT ALERT.

Not antique, but does anyone have experience of the "Seiko 5" 21 jewel mechanical wristwatches? Just curious what folks think of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:31 PM

768. I have a pocket watch made in China. It is pretty, keeps good time and I can see the guts from both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 03:36 PM

I got an email from a guy on the internet that I bought from before. He offered me a Waltham 23j vanguard and a Hamilton 935 for 150 bucks. Well I jumped on it. Both run, I don't need the vanguard as I already own a mint one but this one is earlier and needs the dial replace. However the Hamilton 935 (I guess he didn't know what it was) Is a pretty scarce watch. They only made 4000 of them thats it. I will have my watchmaker replaced the vanguard dial with an original and dump it. Beautiful watch in every regard but bad dial that is easy to replace.   Great great deal

Q do you own a Hamilton 926?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM

No, no 926.
I have only two Hamilton watches- 992B, and a 940 Special 21j adjusted (uncommon).

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM

Well you have one now, it is being serviced at the moment but I will send it to you

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:56 PM

I got two of them Q ... so just PM me your address again ok

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:46 PM

Pm'd with many thanks

There are a lot of 17j pocket watches out there, many can be had cheap, a good group for a beginner? Good timekeepers, 18s, 16s and smaller.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 05:29 PM

Greg F.
Those 21-24j Seiko 5 automatics are interesting. They seem to be clunky, some 13mm in thickness. Add 2 mm to that and you have the thickness of an 18 size pocket watch. I like a thinner watch on my wrist.
The Movado model I wear is only 5 mm thick- it does require a battery, though.

The reviews I find have nothing about accuracy or longevity, only features, price, etc.

The 21j Seiko 5s are offered for as little as $65 with cloth strap. Waterproof to 33 meters and automatic wind, they seem to be good value, but I can't find any long term use evaluations.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 05:48 PM

Counterfeit Seiko 5s on Ebay. Read this on eBay.ca
Counterfeit Seiko 5 utomatics, the Easy Tell: eBay Guides

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 06:08 PM

Thanks for the info, Q - they ARE clunky - at least the one I saw. But the price had me intrigued....IF they're any good. Unreal that someone would take the trouble to counterfeit them - they're not worth that much in the first place!

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 09:30 PM

Greg, look for an Omega Automatic, esp. Seamaster, used. Neat, thin, superb wristwatch. I got an old one in a box of misc. jewelry at an auction.
It's a collector watch, I see several on eBay, but keep an eye out at auctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 09:00 AM

Thanks for the tip, Q! Will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

Omega seamaster ... Oh hell yes ... Q got it right for sure. Incredible watch greg ... wish I had one

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 04:32 PM

The Seamasters are 21-23j depending on grade.

Does anyone remember the incabloc Swiss watches of years ago? They were very reasonable. I have one with a Ramona label, 21 jewel. It keeps pretty good time but probably dirty as a dust bin. I dug it out today and wound it to see how long it would tick away.

I was reminded of this by the Seiko 5 and Stauer Chinese watch mentions.

Getting back to the pocket watches, I picked up a 24hr dial Waltham model 1883 from eBay. Canadian RR approved. Very good looking, but probably needs a good clean. A lot out there, most under $100 in the plain cases, but $1700-2000 if they have the Canadian Pacific beaver or Canadian Time Service label on the bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 11:58 PM

I have a Wakmann, 17 jewels, that says Incabloc, with a steel case engraved with a diesel engine on the back. It keeps damn good time. I think I paid $20 for it at the flea market here.


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 09:50 AM

Mark that is one of the "swiss Walthams" they bought out the name after the company folded ... nothing wrong with that one, they keep good time

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 11:26 AM

Olddude, I must disagree.
Wakmann was a NY company that brought over very good Swiss watches, and sold the watches now known as Breitling under their name.
Mark, you may have a very good watch.

Here is the Wakmann Catalogue from 1959-
http://wakmann.de/277

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 06:35 PM

I stand corrected Q

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 04:25 PM

Picked up a Waltham 1883, nickel plates, 24hr dial (preferred by Canadians) in beautiful condition, perfect gold-filled Fortune case, for $75.
Now I want an 1883 Crescent Street with the 24hr dial.

(Yes, I stopped collecting.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

I have a mint 21 Jeweled Hamilton 992 Railroad pocket watch perfect, full COA just done on it perfect double sunk Hamilton dial. All original, this is the 992 not the 992B. I would sell it for 175 if anyone is interested and its a steal at that price. Just PM me if interested

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 10:32 PM

never mind a guy just nailed it for 250 on ebay

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 07:41 AM

Just bagged a Hamilton 976... looking forward to collecting it on Monday.

Hamilton 976 face

Hamilton 976 movement

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 07:44 AM

Should be:

Hamilton 976 face

Hamilton 976 movement

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:22 AM

Damn me, I'll get this right yet - Hamilton 978L, not 976!

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:20 AM

she's a beauty Will and the 978 isn't easy to find. You can get lots of 974's and even 975's but not the 78's

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:43 AM

I can sell you a very nice 936 for 200 bucks. It is precision timed cleaned and oiled. Keeps RR time

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:32 PM

978- looks like a beauty.

I have been running a 992B I picked up last week. Keeping excellent time. Almost mint, 24hr dial (13-24 in red), almost perfect Fortune GF case (Canadian) with the bar above the crown.

For the fun of it, I am also running the incabloc Swiss "Ramona" 21j wristwatch I got long ago (box of misc.?- can't remember). A nice little watch in a "waterproof" case. Keeping good time. A wind-up, but looking for some data, I find that they also had a 25j automatic. For a time Bulova had a "Ramona" model, but "no relation."

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:02 PM

Q
wait till you see that 974

I sold a bunch of hamiltons last week and bought two mint 992b's not that I need them but they never lose their value and will be awesome to pass on to my family when I take the dirt nap

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:25 PM

Tip- Removing the back of these old pocket watches is sometimes difficult if the threads are dirty, or the back put on too tightly, or cross-threaded. Some of the Fortune, Wadsworth and other cases have no knurl or ornament around the edge of the front and back parts, and are hard to open.
A pair of Atlas therma gloves works wonders, they stick to those smooth surfaces like glue. (Also good for food jars, etc.)

When you get a new (old) watch, clean the threads and contact surfaces with a bit of soft cloth.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM

I absolutely stole this on ebay. This is an old stock 992b mint in the box ... my gosh perfect never carried

992b

inside

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:53 AM

Got another 24hr dial 992B. Bargain time at eBay.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:24 PM

Q
let me know when the 924 gets there ok

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:00 PM

This weekend my 2 1/2 year old grandson and me are going to ride "Thomas the Train"

We both will carry 23J Waltham Vanguards and have our RR hats ready. I got good chain so he can throw it LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:26 PM

Hey Dan, I found a watch man locally. He has a nice clean organized shop and he was very impressed with my Illinois. We talked watches for some time and he seemed to know what he was talking about. I got good fibes from him.