BS: Old Pocket Watches

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:40 AM

Captain Elgin came up with a mainspring called Durapower. It was one of their trademark patents. The DP is a symbol you want to look for in Elgin Watches after 1940 or so ... it stands for DuraPower.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

Captain that big chunky one that you found recently just needs cleaned, give me a month or so when the Amish guy is not so swamped. I will have him service it for you ... I didn't see your watch but I assume that is all that is needed. By the way up until maybe the 20's they used Whale oil as a lube. It gets dark and grimy over the years. Gregs watch that is a civil war era beauty had black jewels .. just from a zillion years of old oil. Easy job. Amish guy will make it purr

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:50 AM

OH and the durapower symbol goes way back on Elgin's however the swiss made Elgin's in the 60's since the company name was changed yada yada. Those watches do not have the DP on them that is why I tend to make sure I see that on a latter day Elgin 40's and beyond. My view anyway. I am no expert

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM

The Elgin factory closed in 1964, and moved to South Carolina. Rights to the name "Elgin" were sold to MZ Berger Inc. a company that manufactures its watches in China. "Elgin" watches produced after 1964 have no connection with the former Elgin watch company.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:23 PM

Thanks Q I thought a swiss company bought them. Maybe I am thinking Hamilton. I do know those watches do not have the DP on the face. DP doesn't matter in the old Elgin watches but it does to me from the 40's on to the 600 models. The China or Swiss or whoever took over the name made a really bad unadjusted cheapo watch. Such is the end of a great American company

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:57 PM

MZ Berger sounds Swiss, but has its head in Hong Kong. It also has the Gruen name. Sharp watches are made by them.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 08:25 PM

I'm not an antique freak as such, but I do love old pocket watches and old cars. (Pre WW 2)Don't know why.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 09:41 PM

I picked up a 21j Bunn Special 60 hour fairly cheaply on Ebay. The case and face aren't much, but the movement looks very good. Many have lost the black infil in numbers and letters on the plates, but this one is near perfect. It runs well, but I imagine it should be cleaned and oiled.
It's a late model, 1928, just after Hamilton bought in, but still made in Springfield.
When I was at the Univ. Illinois, I went to Springfield a couple of times, many years ago. It was a pretty town.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:32 AM

Q that is my next adventure to find a Bunn ...
Even one I need to get repaired ... it is a quest
A man needs a hobby

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 09:48 AM

Q
Ebay is a really good place to look right now. This economy is so bad that things are going very cheap. I saw a 992B go for 148 dollars. Steel case bar over the crown. Unheard of price for a 992B. Yea I am sure it needed service but come on that price !!

You should pick yourself up a Hamilton 992 ... That is such a great watch and small to carry .. you can get a real deal now. The 992 was certified by every single RR in its time. The circa 1920's ones are incredible and if you find one that needs repaired I got the guy for sure.

The best BW Raymond I have ever seen is Greg's key wind 1867 that the Amish guy is fixing for him ... My gosh that is some beauty, stunning.

A great BW Raymond will round out my RR collection and someday after I find my Bunn I will pick one up ... I like the circa 1920's BW's most

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:00 AM

Ok, stupid question. What makes the 992b superior to say, the Elgin you gave me?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:41 AM

It is a railroad grade adjusted 6 positions and RR certified ... that is the only difference. The RR had really strict rules in regard to their watches. They had to be lever set not stem set (after the 1890's) that is. There was a really bad accident prior where the conductors watch was off two minutes because the stem pulled out in his pocket ... hence they invented lever set watches. You unscrew the face pull the lever to set the time. Also watches like the 992B are 21 Jeweled. The guts of the RR watches are much more complex. They had to stand up to some really tough beating and keep on a ticking. The 992B in my opinion is the flagship of RR watches ..

Your watch is excellent and will keep excellent time, it was made for normal carry for regular folks but not certified for RR use. Most regular watches people did not like the lever set as it is a pain to keep unscrewing the face to set the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

By the way, more jewels does not mean a better watch. A watch is considered fully jeweled at 17. However, through the many years it was a marketing thing ... as the movements became so much more refined, they added more jewels to say .. hey my watch is 19, mine is 21 .. bla bla bla. Railroads demanded at least 19 then 21

However, a rule of thumb the more jewels tends to mean a higher quality movement in American watches. It is all about the movement, not the case, not the dial .. not the pretty .. but all rests in the movement that determines quality. That is why to me the 992B is the best

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

Sorry for the long winded answer. Bottom line, the one I gave you will keep as good a time as any RR watch. But if you want to go back in time and work on the RR ... then they won't accept it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:13 AM

One more thing Captain, never judge the watch by its case. Back in the day you bought a movement. You then picked a case. Some would buy the cheapest watch they could and case it in solid gold (for jewelry). Others would buy the best watch they could afford and case it as cheaply as they could get. Many RR watches are brass cased on the old ones ... why ... cause the case wasn't going to hold up with daily wear and tear. it is all about the movement. There were very few companies that "factory cased" their watches. The 992B is the exception, it was factory cased.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 11:30 AM

Now that I am on a roll. When you are looking ... Elgin, Waltham made beautiful high quality watches. However, Illinois and Hamilton are in a class all by themselves. They, In my opinion made the finest movements in the world. Better than Rolex or the master swiss makers. They put a bar on watchmaking that no one since can compete in regards to mechanical watches. There is no bad Illinois or Hamilton watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:04 PM

One of my Uncles many years ago was a watch maker, and I remember him telling me to look for a watch with a 902 something movement. Odd how that just came back to me.

I just looked at my Elgin and it is right on the money with the computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:14 PM

I noticed recently that many of the bridges had lost much of their fine gold or black infill on the lettering/numerals. I had assumed that this was due to age and repeated cleaning, etc. Well, it is due to cleaning, but the result of using an ultrasonic cleaner. Fine for the parts, but the ultrasonic action pops out the gilt, etc. so the bridges with these enhanced markings should not be tossed in the ultrasonic.
The Bunn 60 hr. I bid in is in a good but non-Bunn case with a monogram. Now I will try to find a Bunn case on a non-runner/damaged movement.
The railroads, as you said, put some requirements on cases. At one time the 'swing' mounting was recommended. Plain silveroid/brass/silver/gold cases were OK, but no Hunter cases. Of course lever set was demanded, so the crystal and its mount had to be removable.
The railroader could buy his watch from the union, the RR, or from a catalogue or watch dealer. Businessmen who wanted a good watch could buy the same models. As olddude said, the case was often sold separately on older RR approved watch movements, the quality of case depended on what the pocketbook would permit.
Around 1900, a 'silveroid case', good nickel steel, cost as much as 14k gold, and was much preferable for hard use.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 01:57 PM

That Elgin was fully serviced Captain before I gave it to you .. Should run like a top for many years ... LIKE U

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

I learn something everyday. I didn't know that about the silveroid cases. I notice I see lots of the old RR watches in those cases. Especially the 1800 once. Very cool thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 07:13 PM

I couldn't resist. I sold a couple of common ones that I had and bought another one of these. It runs perfect but I want to clean the grime off the dirt. I will give the mint one to my grandson and carry this one so we each have an exact watch

992B

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 09:34 PM

1908 Sears, Roebuck has a page devoted to the RR watches that they have for sale.
The recommended case is "Alaska metal" (some advs. call it silveroid, there are other names). All of the watches are size 18 (they note that a few RR's accept 16 size).
The case is the "cup," the movement fitted into a "swing ring" which holds the movement and fits into the cup, and the bezel with crystal which screws into the cup.
RR Accepted movements and price in the basic case and 20 year gold-fill:
21j John Hancock Hampden- $18.00, 22.35
21j Special Railway Hampden- $19.50, 23.85
23j New Railway Hampden- $21.75, 24.50
19j B. W. Raymond Elgin- $24.75, 29.10
21j Father Time Elgin- $26.75, 31.10
23j Special Railway Hampden- $27.00, 31.35
21j Veritas Elgin- $30.75, 35.10
23j Veritas Elgin- $35.75, 40.10

The same movements are also priced in Hunter, solid gold, and various fancy cases for other than RR use.
I have a 21j Spec. Railway Hampden, a nice watch.

Other catalogues will have prices for RR accepted South Bend, Howard, Waltham and other makes, but the above gives a fair idea of price range.

Wound up my grandmother's South Bend 15j half-hunter today. A nice watch with the pin that permits it to be worn on a blouse, dress, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:05 PM

And to put those prices in perspective, the 1908 dollar equals about $23.00 today.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:19 AM

My misses will mess me up if I buy any more watches ... but on ebay take a look at this zenith ... that watch is pretty rare. It was certified on all Canadian Railroads .. what a beauty and a steal if the bid holds.
zenith

She also has a 992b, dial is whipped but so what. I bet that one goes for cheap also

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

I see the same lady listed a Hamilton 992 as 982 .. she read it wrong. That one has a bad dial also .. but a steal if the bids hold. I love my 992

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Why couldn't I have been born rich instead of modest?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 12:04 PM

that zenith that has 56 is a special edition for 1956
I only saw one of them before ... dang ... my missus would kill me so I have to pass. I tend to sell my common ones and then use the money to buy what I want so it doesn't really cost me anything. But alas I did that for the 2nd 992B so me and my grandson would have the same watch

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

Here's the way to do it, find ones that need some repair. Find an Amish master that doesn't charge and arm and a leg. Sell the common one for double or triple what you have in it .. Then get the one you really want

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 01:58 PM

The Zenith is 1958. It has the Canadian 24hr dial.
Not long after, wristwatches were accepted for Canadian RR use, quartz movements and all.
I have a (Swiss) Bulova RR 9362 Q, 24 hr Canadian dial, which I bought new. It sits on my desk, I like its sweep second hand which is orange in color and easily visible when I am racing someone to the wire in Ebay bids.
These quartz RR watches are cheap used in Canadian flea markets, I don't know if similar watches were accepted by the RRs in the states.

My grandfather's old E. Howard (not one of the desirable ones) is on my desk, checking it out, it needs repair. It runs on its face, but that's all. 1911, 17j. Should get it fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Not that I know of Q, the RR in the states still had some tough rules. Don't know now, probably anything goes today.

did you see how clean the Jewels are on that Zenith. Beautiful watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 03:48 PM

Omega also made a pocket watch acceptable on some Canadian RRs.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:06 PM

That Zenith is at $209.50 now.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:20 PM

Well I figured, I should have PM'd you .. probably now people read my post and went after it. Still think that 992B she has can be fixed by the Amish guy for under 100. One of the catters should go after it if they can get it under 160

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

Seiko P J6008 wristwatch is approved by some U.S. railways. See Amazon for sellers. Under $70.
A Pulsar model, under $100, also accepted.
The best are sold under the Hamilton name (several hundred dollars).

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

Dug out an old Illinois- keywind and key set. 24hr dial so possible Canadian RR use.
It is running, but how well, I dunno yet. Can't remember where I got it, possibly a family trunk. The serial no. dates it as 1875.
Heavy silveroid case with 'ears' front and back to open it.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 07:29 PM

awesome send me a pic, that sounds like a great watch. very cool

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:11 PM

My Elgin is right on the money with the computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:24 PM

Is that the 574 I gave you captain. I had that cleaned before I sent it. At least that one didn't get banged up in the mail like the other one

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:41 PM

Wound and keeping time today-
Ladies Elgin size 0, 1904. Flea market buy. Three color gold fill case.
Ladies South Bend, size 0, 1911 (my grandmother's)

Hampton 18s, New Railway 23j (wish it was the Special)
Waltham 16s, P S Bartlett, model 1899, 17j, ser. no. for 1902. A nice watch, not worth much, but light and easy to carry. Three-part case.

Illinois 18s, America, keywind and key set, 1875, ?jewels. Been keeping time for 6 hr, now if it keeps up for 30 hours-
I had to go to the net to find out it was key set. Couldn't find a lever, and the top is just a knob to hold the ring.
I love the ornate 24hr dial. I will send some pictures.

South Bend, 16s, 3 part case, can't get the back unscrewed so don't know the movement. This one came with a box of costume jewelry at a house auction.

Watched some stuff on Ebay. A 23j 16s Bunn Special, not the 60 hour, went for $525. One that is 60 hour is up to $1525.00 and still 2 days to go. Several good Bunn's are up, go to Ebay and enter Illinois Bunn Special.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:49 PM

Can't buy anymore watches Q not for a bit ... Kid in vet school new roof, unless I unload some art that I collected for years. One of the antique flea markets has a 23J bunn ... trashed up pretty good but I can get it for around 150. I am sure the Amish guy will hit me about 200+ to restore but that would be well worth the money ... Got my eye on it and it is hidden way back in the store so hopefully it will remain until I can do it.

You got some real gems. I wound up a 1911, 17 Jeweled Elgin, perfect dial, some light brassing on the case. Kept dead nuts accurate time. I gotta get this new 992b cleaned. It will be 3 months before I get it back from the amish guy but he will charge me all of 30 bucks to clean oil and time. He may do it for free, he has done that for me a few times cause the guy likes me and I send him business.

On the zenith web, I see no bids on that 992. If you can offer the lady say 75 bucks maybe she will take it. I have a place for replacement dials at 21 bucks and probably 30 or 40 to have it sericed by my amish guy ... no brainer for a watch that sell in the jewelry stores here in town for 300 - 400. Ya may want to think about that. I don't know the lady but looks interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 09:08 PM

I got him working on that 21 Jeweled Illinois gentleman watch circa 1920. He is going to put new hands on it. Fix the hair spring , clean and service, polish the case. Can't wait to see how that puppy runs. That would make an outstanding carry watch as I wouldn't cry if I messed it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Hey Q
did you ever see a 950?
I don't know anyone that owns one ... don't I wish .. wow what a beauty
I look at these things and my wife says "looking at watch porn?" LOL

hamilton 950B

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 03:18 PM

The 950B was issued in two forms- stem set and lever set. The Ebay offer doesn't say.
The 'S' serial numbers are peculiar, S 28.. would be c. 1945. Haven't got the Shugart price book, dunno what its retail value is now, but I imagine about $900-1000.

The old 1875 keywind-keyset is on time after 24 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:21 PM

Hamilton prices, movements. Otto Young Catalogue, 1926

The 950 (without B) goes back to about 1900.
Prices of movement in basic cases from their adv. in a railroad magazine-
950- $103 list, $85 to RR men
992- $57.70, $48.50 (This was before 992B. 992B new double roller in troduced in 1940s (haven't checked exact date)
952- $70.30, $60.00
996- $54.50, $45.00
974- $30.40, $25.00

950 description- Bridge movement, pendant or lever set, 23 extra fine ruby and sapphire jewels in gold settings, Patent motor barrel, gold train, Escapement cap jeweled, steel escape wheel, double roller escapement, Sapphire pallets, Breguet hairspring, micrometric regulator, compensation balance, double sunk dial, Adj. to temperature, isochronism and five positions.

992 description- 3/4 plate movement, lever set only, 21 extra fine ruby and sapphire jewels in gold settings, double roller escapement, sapphire pallets, gold center wheel, steel escape wheel, micrometric regulator, Breguet hairspring, double sunk dial, compensation balance, beautifully damaskeened, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions.

Informative adv. Descriptions given for other models as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 04:26 PM

The above and other info at https://home.comcast.net/~k_singer/hamilton_watch_co.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 05:16 PM

The 1926 dollar is worth about $12.00 today, so the 992 cloks in at $692.00

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 07:45 PM

The 992 I carry is mint. I left the shop in 1919 . I tell ya properly tuned any of the Hamilton RR watches will keep Railroad time even today or better. I bet I don't lose 20 sec a week on my 992. If ya get a chance to snag one cheap even not working grab it

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:01 PM

Too bad, olddude. A $100 atomic watch resets on the continuous time signal from Colorado, so is always accurate. 'Tain't purty, but it does the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 09:18 PM

Sometimes looks are important.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 27 Aug 11 - 08:59 AM

Ya Q but not near as much fun. I mean come on, if you are late for that dreaded dentist appointment, you can blame your 100 year old pocket watch .. try that with a new fangled atomic clock