BS: Greatest traitor in US history?

Subject: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:14 AM

Who is the greatest traitor in U.S. history? Some might say Benedict Arnold or the Rosenbergs or such like, but as of right now I would say Woodrow Wilson. He oversaw the transfer of the U.S. financial system to the privately-owned Federal Reserve system. Duties that should be performed by our Treasury are now performed by Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo and Chase. This was a MASSIVE betrayal of his oath of office.

I never thought I would see anyone exceed that treason, but I think I'm about to.

Barrack Obama made it into my top ten list of traitors when he began killing American citizens and saying he did not have to answer to anyone for it. And now he's poised to sign the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012. When he does, he will be claiming the power to abrogate the U.S. Constitution. He will be claiming that you have no right to life, and to punctuate the statement he will be unleashing the military on you.

This will make him the greatest traitor the U.S. has ever produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:17 AM

Haven't I been saying he's a ringer?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:22 AM

Nice fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:33 AM

I agree about Woodrow Wilson and the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. People who aren't aware of how that came about during Wilson's term in office might benefit from doing some reading on the subject.

But to find a "greatest traitor" is not easy. Nor is it necessarily helpful. Rather than focusing on individuals to blame, I think it's more instructive to look at how the entire finance/government system functions...and how (almost all) USA presidents become not much more than helpless puppets once they are elected and in its grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:58 AM

I'm with LH with this one in regards to focusing on one individual to blame ..... greatest traitor would be the Corporate Oligarchi or what I call the machine .... think about it .... it's a traitor not only to the U.S, but also to world humanity.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:08 AM

Yup. And to Mother Nature, the planet, and every living thing on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:27 AM

The Federal Reserve is privately owned? Can I buy stock in it?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:35 AM

I'm not sure. That would depend on whether they are selling shares on the open market, wouldn't it? Look it up. There are a great many sources of information out there which can easily confirm the private ownership of the Federal Reserve Bank. A number of fine books have been written about it. Go to Amazon.com and order one of them and read it. The Federal Reserve Bank is a privately owned corporation. They're in it for their own profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:53 AM

1) Read Executive Order 11110

2) Find out when
    a) the Federal Reserve was created
    b) the income tax was created

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 05:21 AM

"Who is the greatest traitor in U.S. history?"

Likely the bankers who have screwed the people of the USA--and the rest of the world.

OTOH, one of its greatest patriots may have been JFK. He was going to warn the American people about the Federal Reserve and less than two weeks later his light went out in Dallas.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Brian May
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:32 AM

George W surely, look what he got you all into . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 08:13 AM

Yes indeed - if you'd have behaved better in 1775-83, you'd be talking proper like Hugh Grant. You might have got shire status by now. I bet you'd have liked to be Texas-shire, or Arizona-shire or California-shire.

However the offer is withdrawn, and you'll just have to manage without our kindly ruling hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 08:53 AM

The members of the Federal Reserve Board, who are nominated by the president and confirmed by the senate, would be surprised to find that they really work for Goldman Sacs. In fact, since the latter isn't a bank, it isn't allowed to belong to the local Federal Reserve Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:42 AM

Well, lets see ----- we've got Dick Nixon (Watergate), Ron Reagan (Iran-Contra), Ollie North (ditto), Tailgunner Joe McCarthy and .......um...... too many to mention.........

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:48 AM

Treason Doth Never Prosper: What 's The Reason?
Why, If It Prosper, None Dare Call It Treason.

On which basis, perhaps George Washington?...

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:53 AM

I think the NDAA is the most ill-conceived piece of trash in the midden of COngress in years.

If Obama signs it, I will be disappointed, as the problems it purports to resolve could be addressed in much less poisonous ways.

However, even if he does, he is not committing an act of treason.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:55 AM

If you're going to rank the worst things a politician can do, it seems to me starting an unnecessary war would be at the top of the list.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 09:56 AM

I'd nominate for the greatest traitor, the looney who made up all of this nonsense about the Federal Reserve.

Can Rupert Murdoch be nominated? Or do you have to be a citizen?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 10:38 AM

One traitor that should be mentioned in this thread is the mainstream media ... but then again, they are (like the president) subservient to the 'machine'.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 10:38 AM

Murdoch is a US citizen, but I don't think he's got into the same league as Henry Ford the Nazi yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:49 AM

Big Al Whittle - "the offer is withdrawn, and you'll just have to manage without our kindly ruling hand."

You're a hard man, Big Al. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:15 PM

Technically speaking it would have to be Jefferson Davis... But in resupplying Sumpter in the winter of 1961 knowing that it was going to very probably provoke the South, Lincoln gets an "DisHonorable" Mention...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:41 PM

So...what if Lincoln hadn't resupplied Fort Sumter when he did? Are you saying the war would have been avoided? What then?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 12:42 PM

Hmmm. Well, but one man's traitor is another man's patriot, Bobert. ;-D And it's always been that way.

Benedict Arnold, for instance, started out as a very fine general for the American Revolution. That made him a hero and patriot to the Revolutionaries, a traitor to the British Crown.

He then became very disgruntled over not receiving what he considered proper recognition for his services to the Revolution, and he switched sides and joined the British! That made him a traitor to the Revolution, but a hero and patriot to the British Crown.

The British eventually lost the war. This deprived Benedict Arnold of the chance to be remembered as a hero and patriot...the British no longer needed him...so he is remembered by the victors of the Revolution as a traitor.

It's ALL arbitrary. Don't you think that if the Revolution had failed that generations of school children would have since been honoring Benedict Arnold as a hero of that war? We honor Nazis who turned against Hitler, don't we? They're considered to have been tragic heroes. But they were "traitors" in the view of their own government, and had their own government won the war, they'd still be seen as "traitors".

****

I'm not implying in the above that different sides are necessarily morally equivalent in a war. The Nazis were a terribly bad outfit, and they deserved to lose. I'm just saying that the line between "traitor" and "patriot" is an extremely subjective one, depending on whose horse you are backing in the race.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:07 PM

Takes two to tango, Jim... Lincoln and Davis each did their parts...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:10 PM

Aaron Burr and James Wilkinson.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:28 PM

Obama has given us Executive branch murder of American citizens for reasons he doesn't have to divulge, and soon he will give us the "legal" the disappearing of Americans. Dick Nixon's crime was that he tinkered with a tape recorder and lied about Watergate knowledge. Compare that to Obama saying he has the right to snatch you off the street, rendition you to Egypt and torture you for the rest of your days.

George W. Bush is on my list of top ten traitors too, but he's turning out to be a piker compared to Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:33 PM

Mythology by any other name is still mythology, wrong... You got more than the song wrong...

BTW, I guess you think that Obama was born in Kenya, is a Muslim and perhaps even kidnapped the Limburg baby...

Where do you people come up with all these conspiracy theories...

This belongs up in the Obama haters thread...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:58 PM

Technically speaking it would have to be Jefferson Davis.

While I wouldn't claim Davis to be "the greatest", his taking up arms and waging war against the U.S. government is hardly a technicality.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 01:58 PM

nixon

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:20 PM

Dick Nixon's crime was that he tinkered with a tape recorder and lied about Watergate knowledge.

Of course the enormous numbers of slaughtered civilians in Indochina, including the terrorist "peace offensive" bombing don't count - nor the millions of victims of Agent Orange, continuing to this day.

But I suppose those are war crimes rather than "treason".

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:33 PM

Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 02:42 PM

Reasurring that no-one here, at least, thinks it's Bradley Manning.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM

"the Limburg baby"

Was that the son of the famous cheese magnate? ;-)

I couldn't care less if Obama had been born in Kenya or was a Muslim. As far as I'm concerned, that wouldn't matter...it would have no effect on his character, his intelligence or his ability to be a good president. People born in Kenya are no better or worse than other people, and the same goes for Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:16 PM

The point about the NDAA is that both Bush and Obama have claimed the right already to imprison American citizens. The NDAA codifies this practice but in truth, look at Bradley Manning and you can see the operative idea already in action prior to the adoption of this act.

Who's next?

We are headed toward Oligarchic Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 03:20 PM

I vote for the US Chamber of Congress and the entire Republican Corporate Banking Military Complex.

They have done more damage as domestic enemies of America than all the wars put together, with the exception of the unique traumatic mental and bodily injuries that wars produce.

YEt they do not see it that way. For example; "Why does anyone think Wall St. is a villain ? ITs as though some people want to condemn another person for achieving a measure of success?!"
Quote: President of Morgan Stanley Bank.



btw I think war profiteers are also scum. At least the wars of pre emptive and political financial expediancy.
I heard BLack Water changed its name AGAIN. It is now Academi. X and Sea Services were some of its other names.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:11 PM

Donuel: I take it for granted that "Lincoln and Davis each did their parts" but I still don't see why you say supplying Fort Sumter was a dishonorable thing to do—unless you think the whole war was dishonorable, and the South should have been allowed to peacefully secede. (If that's what you think, it might be interesting to hear you say so. I don't agree, but I'm not planning to debate that issue.)

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:31 PM

Dick Nixon's crime was that he tinkered with a tape recorder

Oh, please, don't be ridiculous. Do review the evidence & testimony in the Watergate business & you'll discover it was WAY more than this...

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:34 PM

Was it seventeen or eighteen minutes of mime on the tapes?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 04:47 PM

Didn't realize Marcel Marceau was ON the tapes, Bruce -

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 06:34 PM

The Greatest Traitor, isn't that a little like the nicest axe-murder?

I am not inclined to want to rank traitors in terms of greatness. One is either a traitor or one isn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 06:49 PM

not really. we hanged Roger Casement, but he was a better man than most of the turds who hanged him.

theres surely degrees of everything.

We shot Erskine Childers. bit of a bastard thing to do.

Ezra Pound - he was locked up as a traitor, but he looked a bit wacky to me (and sounded it). I'm not sure you can blame people who are bonkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:14 PM

A lot of nonsense here, beating some political stance, from leftwing to anarchist.

Federal Reserve System Banks implement government policy, and its 12 banks in 12 Federal Reserve Districts oversee the actions of private banks within their region. Governance is independent; Ben Bernanke chairman, members Janet Yellin, Elizabeth Duke, Daniel Tarullo, and Sarah Bloom Raskin. These members are nominated by the US President and confirmed by the US Senate.
Purposes and Functions are covered in the bulletin "The Federal Reserve System Purposes and Functions," online at http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm

The FR system has arrangements for convenience with many countries, including Canada, with which it has set up in 2010 a $30 billion swap agreement with Bank of Canada (see article within www.bankofcanada.ca, or preferably google) and other arrangements set up over time.

Any list of traitors would include the first ones, who rebelled against the British government ........
All the ills that the US is accused of could stem from the original secession, since everything the government has done since that time seems to be at odds with fringe perceptions promulgated here.
If the colonies hadn't seceeded, than all the blame could be assigned to the British government.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:30 PM

While I've become thoroughly disillusioned with Obama, I'd have to say George W. Bush is the biggest traitor in US history. I'll never, ever forgive him for what he did--never. If Obama is becoming a dictator, remember who put that machinery in place in the Oval Office and left it there when he vacated.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 07:33 PM

//// we hanged Roger Casement, but he was a better man than most of the turds who hanged him.////

I know Alfred Noyes was an ardent defender of Casement and thought his Black Diaries were forgeries. I'm not so sure but I'm not an authority either. What say you?

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 10:40 PM

no the black diaries were real enough. Casement was gay as Paris in the spingtime.

All that lot were sort of queer.

I think that was what the Wasteland was about.

TS Eliots comes to England. he finds this weird awful place. Industrialisation everywhere, Music hall humour, mucky postcards. jazz, ragtime, fast food, men with pimples having sex.....

In other words - English life as vigorous and beautiful as its ever been.

And yet there is English literature - once the greatest in the world being written as a dead language. Noyes - a good case in point Writing about highwaymen and stagecoaches and King george's men in scarlet - when soldiers were in khaki. stevenson writing about pirates and jacobites. Wilde writing poems like Requiesacat and Helas. Rupert Brooke, lionel Johnson....

Still Casement was an okay bloke. He had campaigned against slavery in Africa. He had a lot to offer. They shouldn't have killed him.

he was a prot, and yet a republican. he would have been a better statesman for ireland, ulster and England than either devalera, Collins, or Conolly.


anyway thats what I think. Traitor he may have been - but a good man. Whereas axe murderers - I can't work up much enthusiasm for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:38 PM

josepp: "If Obama is becoming a dictator, remember who put that machinery in place in the Oval Office and left it there when he vacated."

Josepp, very perceptive!..I argue the same thing on here, during the elections, in regards to George W....now look what we got!
Not only that, Obama's Administration was trying to pass legislation to ALLOW the government to LIE and refuse answering questions...add that to the 'Patriot Act' and the NDAA!!!!

..and the so-called 'liberals' haven't connected the dots yet!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Dec 11 - 11:38 PM

I guess I should have defined what I mean by "traitor." That would be someone who betrays his or her own people. The various crimes against humanity that all presidents have committed are a different matter. And to be a truly GREAT traitor you have to be in a position to do maximum damage, which Burr and Arnold and some others weren't, but presidents are.

Woodrow Wilson swore to uphold the U.S. Constitution, and our constitution lays out monetary policy. He then turned over that policy-making authority to the privately-owned Federal Reserve. The fed is a consortium of private banks. Just do a search of "federal reserve private" to see volumes of information on this topic. If you want to read how the private bankers set up the fed, read The Creature From Jeckyll Island. It was available as a free download the last time I looked.

But Obama just signed the NDAA, so he he becomes traitor #1. Creating domestic death squads in violation of the Bill of Rights is as bad a thing as a president could do. Obama's supposed to be a "law professor" too, so he can't claim ignorance on this one. He's telling you that he has the power to kill you, premeditatedly, for whatever secret reason he decides on.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 12:00 AM

"The Creature From Jeckyll Island" is indeed THE book to read to understand clearly what has happened with USA monetary policy since the Woodrow Wilson presidency. I read it a couple of years ago. I then lent it to a musical friend of mine, a great guy who happens to be very rightwing in a political sense. His political instincts are generally opposite to mine on most stuff. He read it and was stunned by what it had to say. It shifted his outlook on a lot of stuff. People need to understand what the big multinational bankers have done. They have utterly hijacked the ship of state in virtually every nation, taken over our governments by their financial maneuverings, financed wars to enrich themselves, ruined the value of our currency, robbed the middle class and the poor, and put our societies into unrecoverable debt...all to enrich themselves. The Federal Reserve Bank was the key instrument of achieving that in the USA, and it still is.

If you haven't read the book "The Creature From Jeckyll Island", then you have no basis on which to criticize or pooh-pooh what it says. To any skeptic I have this to say: READ IT.

As for NDAA...doesn't surprise me a bit. I was expecting something like that to be passed as part of the so-called "War on Terror" (a misnomer if ever there was one). Orwell predicted that the future dictatorship that would run society would help secure and expand its oppressive power over the public by fighting an apparently endless war against a shadowy and ill-defined "enemy" somewhere overseas, a war that could be used as an excuse for every oppressive new rule brought down in the Homeland. What he predicted has come true in our time.

He also predicted electronic surveillance of the entire public through new technology. That is being done too, and is being done most thoroughly right now in the UK where surveillance cameras are being mounted practically everywhere in order to spy on the general public. These are not measures being put in place to protect the general public, but to control them.

Subject: RE: BS: Greatest traitor in US history?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Dec 11 - 04:25 AM

Rupert Brooke wrote mostly in the language of his time (apart from the bit of Greek in "the Old Vicarage, Grantchester". I do not see the accuracy in speaking of his as if he wrote in the past. He died on active service - albeit from an infected mosquito bite rather than an enemy bullet(!).

Some of his stuff is a bit soppy though.