BS: Survivor's Guilt

Subject: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

bleary eyed this morning and drained - had a family incident last night; very physically and emotionally draining.

A problem with a student triggered a teacher-relative; when while arranging counseling and mediation for a troubled student the counseling staffs reaction was "Is it worth trying?" - and what was triggered was the survivor's guilt of several suicides in the classmates of a nephew. Having been through the system and haveing had to fight to get treatment for my nephew's depression - realizing how easily it could have been HIS funeral we attended - yet grieving for the boys who took their own lives; mourning their lives; grieving for the parents and family - with that guilty undercurrent of "Thank God it wasn't Peter".

I'm not saying our grief and mourning for the dead wasn't and isn't sincere. One of the boys I knew since he was a toddler - camped out with him; taught him in sunday school; worked with him on drama projects etc. We're a small community and there are probably more intergenerational connections then common these days. Marcus and my nephew Peter were good, close friends. And you can't help but wonder if there wasn't something that you could have done, could have said that would have helped him pull through.

Probably the worst part last night was trying to help my sister through the survivor guilt fugee was the fact that it was triggering my OWN - I didn't/don't have the additional burden of students going through similar circumstances TODAY (not directly - though I know most of them or their families) - but I don't have the answers for my own doubts, fears, worry and guilt. I didn't have any answers for her, and I probably never will. All I know is we need to cherish our young people - and give them whatever support they need. At the same time we can't let them sink into apathy. I'm not sure "no student left behind" is appropriate in all cases - but neither is "ignore the ones that are too difficult"


frustrated, drained, guilty and emotionally exhausted isn't a good state to think about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: ranger1
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:47 AM

Suicide is one of the hardest things to deal with. People always beat themselves up about not seeing the signs beforehand, but many times the signs are only obvious after the fact. As to survivor's guilt, it is only human to think "thank god it wasn't one of mine!"

MMario, I've been on both ends. PM me if you need to.

ranger1

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:48 PM

All you can do is take responsibility for doing what you can in the future, MM.

If you plague yourself with regret over things that probably not contributing factors to the catastrophe, you just reduce your ability to help in the future.

Regret and guilt are not the answer, never have been. What you can do today and tomorrow is the big issue.

Love,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Mudlark
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

Truly sorry, M.Mario, that you, and your whole community, are dealing with this. While a certain amount of survivor type guilt is unavoidable, I agree with Amos, guilt, like worry, is bootless, and I've come to feel that it is actually a negative state in that it mires us in the past, when, again as Amos says, what needs focus is the future. I hope you can take comfort in the fact that you were instrumental in getting help for your nephew.

Triggers are irrational...you're way ahead of the game if you can see them for what they are, and move on. Take care of yourself--these are trying times, and people like you, with strength and sensitivity are needed now, as always.

Nancy

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:46 PM

Leo, I KNOW you. I don't know anyone else who does everything that can be done and more, when there is need. If there are things you wish you had done, and did not do-- I bet if you look back at the day and time you thought each of those "shoulds", you'd see someone going 200% or more beyond the time and energy required, loving SOMEONE who really needed it right then.

If were were all to confess those thing we had not done, that we know we ought to have done-- if we heard each other's failures-- you'd see that we all do the best we can, and that each thing we regret becomes a spur to do something the ext time around. ANd that's how a life is lived-- building upon one life lesson to get to the next.

Thank you for all the things you HAVE done.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Janie
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Ah Leo, I'm so very sorry that you, your family and your community have had to deal with this. One thing to keep in mind about survivor guilt in , is that it is our defense against recognizing and living with our powerlessness. "I should have...I could have....If only I had...." fosters the illusion that we have much more power and control over existence than we really do.

Mercy and peace for you and those you hold dear.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Bummer situation Mario...truly.........To much of the unknown exists everyday and adding in some more can be way too much sometimes and lead to the way you feel now.

I am not making light or trivial when I say that Lenny had it right when he said: "There is only what is; what should be never existed."

If we look at the things we do and do not do every day, as long as we are doing our best at the time, we can do no better......and that is "what is." Second guessing in hindsight is not nearly as great a learning experience as we want to believe as in the present we are (at least most of us) doing the best we can with what we have. What is is what is......and it stands alone. What should be will drive you crazy as it has no basis in reality and can be anything we throw in.

There are thousands of things you could have done but if you are doing and did your best along the way, then those thousand things are academic as they do not represent what is or what was and you'll be forever in a guilt fed depression over what you probably could never have done.

You're a good man, a kind man, a thoughtful and introspective man, a loving man, and above all, a gentle man. Don't let the often and generally impossible possibilities of the past take you down. There is only waht is and what should be never existed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:36 PM

Mario

You don't know me. but I feel I have to write to you because I've been there myself, so far as it's possible. My father shot himself when I was 12, sixty years ago. About four years ago one of my twin granddaughters tried to kill herself. She was 15 then and it wan't successful, thank God.

There's the guilt, and there's a kind of rage; I've had enough suicide in my life, and enough of the fools who tell you that "tough love" is the answer. Or that anything else is the answer, as far as that goes.

I can't offer you any quick remedy. I wish to God I had one. What the others have said is all true, but of course knowing that isn't enough. But believe them; the grief and guilt will stand in the way, but believe them.

This is something that can't be solved, but it can be outgrown. You will prevail, and you will not be the same, but you will prevail. Writing this has been hard and slow because it's triggered some things in me, but I'm all right. I won't get over it, but I'm all right, and you will be too.

As Mudlark said, recognize the triggers for what they are, and as you said: cherish our young people and give them whatever support they need.

clint

Write if I can do any good: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:08 AM

My first boyfriend's father shot himself. My friend was riddled with guilt, as he had been a twelve year old playing with the gun that his father shot himself with. He always blamed himself and later suicided by the same method in his early thirties.

My partner (now ex) of 14 years was also the son of a man who shot himself (my partner was 7 at the time). His mother and older brother never got over it, and carried a deep streak of hurt with them always. Their husband/father was under political pressure at the time, and there was always bitterness about that aspect.

My ex missed out on a lot, growing up with the grief and tragedy, but grew into a kind and talented person. While he carried a huge amount of guilt and grief in his younger years, he moved on (group therapy). he has lived a life of achievement, is fulfilling his musical and artistic potential, and has a good life.

There is more support and understanding for people with suicidal urges nowadays, and for the families that suffer the devastation afterwards. no one can ever be responsible, but that is so hard to believe when you're personally involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:46 AM

Mario

Lots of good advice here for you to follow. I add my wishes of you and your community being able to accept and mourn what has happened and eventually move on.

My mother committed suicide when I was 21, and her psychiatrist contacted me to make sure I knew I wasn't to blame, nor could I have done anything to have stopped her. I was aware of both these things, but only because I had lived with my mother's depression all of my life, and had even discussed her suicidal feelings with her. In a way, I was well-prepared when what happened happened, though there is not a day that goes by when I don't wish she hadn't made that decision.

Survivor guilt is what we are left with...that and a great surge of our own survival instinct. This is probably the strongest instinct we possess, so one can imagine the psychic pain of someone who fights and wins against it. All the more horrific when it is a child involved.

The lessons are myriad, but early warnings can often be seen by friends, teachers and family members. To err on the side of caution and make sure the children (and all members) of your community are both listened to and respected will help bring you closer together. Help and support need to be on offer, but if such a tragedy still befalls you, at least you all will know every effort was made to help.

In the end, it's all we can do...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:14 AM

For most of us, I think this is how it runs:

Chances are, the same people who taught you that you should be responsible for others also taught you that you yourself are not too worthwhile or capable. In other words, we get taught we should shoulder burdens that we can't possibly shoulder! So there is a dynamic tension there to untangle, because both ends are inaccurate pictures. The truth is you don't really have to carry ALL of that, but just your share, and you DO have the power and inner resources to do that!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Tinker
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:22 PM

Mario, I just saw this and I'll send a more thoughtful PM tommorrow. I think you know the circle around my own kids has had multiple attempted suicides (some very close) over the past eighteen months. I've had these kids in Scouts and Sunday school at sleep overs and ...you know all the times and places where in hind sight you want to second guess yourself. I've been trying hard to focus on the fleeting moments of connection.

And Yes, those mother bear tendencies about my own get triggered big time especially as I have an adolescent who has been diagnosed with Seasonal Affective disorder, but the best I can keep offering is a sense of hope in the future and an beat my head against the wall belief that we can change things one step at a time. (Oh, and did I mention an occaisional outright howling cry)

I'm not quite sure how a generation that believed they could change the world has raised so many children devoid of hope. But they are all loveable, often even when they don't want to be. We give what we can, as we can and it does make a difference, even when we can't see it.

Blessings and Hugs,

tink

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: open mike
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:32 AM

just seeing the beautiful shawl you created with so much love and how it incorporates so much energy from (and to) others makes me know that you are such a creative and sharng person. If you were not such, you would not be experiencing this situation with so much empathy. You are a
unique individual and this is a unique test of your survival skills.
You can be re-assured as you look around you that there is much beauty and much to be thankful for. Since your heart has such a capacity,
you may be feeling this more acutely than others. hugs to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Survivor's Guilt
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:45 AM

I have known many people who have attempted it at one point or another...I have attempted it...a cousin of mine attempted it a few weeks ago....luckily neither one of us succeeded...and I can tell you I did not intentionally leave any clues to anybody...i did not go up to anybody and tell them i was going to pick up a knife and cut myself or throw a rope around my throat, one i tried the other I clearly imagined doing. My cousin didn't tell anybody she was going to pop a bunch of pills...she just did. Besides, what could you or anybody else have done? Go up to the b oy and ask if he was going to kill himself? He would have just told you no...and you would have felt foolish, then he would have gone on to do it anyways...Suicide is the last refuge of the hopeless and those feeling that desparate feel that no one cares and will miss them when they're gone...including the one reaching out to help. Now, I know you know there is nothing that could have changed the events....but I also know that doesn't help you with your guilt and sorrow...and nothing I or anyone else here can help soothe the pain...but we can reach out to you and try. Maybe you should try and do something for the poor parents left behind...something personal. they will appreciate it...and you will to...if not now in time.

Subject: Lyric Add The Enigma-Eric Bogle
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:55 AM

The Enigma

Eric Bogle


Andrew had a smile upon his face
The day he resigned from the human race
The arguments had all been heard
The verdict had been reached
He turned his back upon his cage
And that to his relieve
Spinning like a carousel
Andrew made no sound as he fell

It's hard to believe said Andy's friend
We won't be seeing Andy again
He'd achieved so many goals
That men keep striving for
Big house, good job, expense account,
Wife whom he adored
He had it made as far as we could tell
We were his friends
We knew him well

I can't believe it's true said Andy's wife
I can't believe that Andrew took his life
I can't believe the man I love won't be coming home
I can't believe the man I love would leave me here alone
Without one word of love or of farewell
He was my man, I knew him well

I don't believe it, Andrew's father said
I don't believe my little Andy's dead
Perhaps we never were what a father and son should be
But I always loved him, and I thought that he loved me
Where did I go wrong, where did I fail
He was my son, I knew him well

And I won't believe it, Andy's mother cried
I won't believe that it was suicide
The past few years I know perhaps he strayed from the fold
But he would never put in jeopardy his own immortal soul
He must have lost his balance, slipped and fell
He was my son, I knew him too well

Andrew had a smile upon his face
As he tumbled through the fragile space
That spans the known and the unknown
That bridges life and death
Time before he crossed the bridge
Before one final breath
Time for one last defying yell
But Andrew made no sound as he fell