Lyrics Syllabisation

Subject: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

What are the rules for separating song lyrics into syllables?

If we were to take the Beatles song I would be tempted to write this as 'Yes -ter -day', but I suspect that if this was in a classical choral score it would be more appropriately expressed as 'Ye -ster -day', on the basis that there would be excessive sibillance with the first syllable ending in 's'. It's a lot more clear cut if you sing in Italian, but the general rule in English seems to be to end the syllable with a vowel sound if possible and then transfer the following consonant to the next phrasing.

OK, so it's only folk music that I typically fiddle with, but does anyone know what the 'correct' rules are please?

I have a vague feeling that we've discussed this before but I can't find any reference to it.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:37 AM

If there is a rule, I guess it is more that the splitting should not represent a (differently sounded) word in its own right. 'To-geth-er', for example, rather than 'To-get-her'. I don't think of this as a rule, more avoiding a trap for the unwary!

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:44 AM

Good example, thanks Dave. If you spent five seconds singing each syllable you might be tempted to write 'to -ge -ther'.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:59 AM

Singing can only be recognized as words if you stress the consonants. So putting them in the right places for the note duration is the key, so their appearance is brief, strong, and helpful in making the word clear. Sibilants are not to appear on a long, held note, and can be sung as ts to add precision and emphasis. You'd SING ts but that's not how it sounds-- to others.

Also, keep the vowels clean, in the "ah-eh-ih-oh" mode and not twisted or chewed into "ay-ee-owe" mode. Go to the y in the vowel sond at the last possible instant of the note duration--

So:

Yet - stir- dehhhhhhhay, all my troubles seemed so fahhhh-rah-wehhhhhhhay....

Really. I kid you not.

~S~

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

There are guides to standard practice -rules, if you like- but you might have to ask a specialist where they can be had. In the case of folksong, many of the early collectors were not experienced, and their approaches often differed; when I was working on the "Penguin" revision, for example, a number of inconsistencies came up. The music setter was able to advise on the "right" way, and in most cases we went with that; though in a few it was obvious that the original collector's notation, though non-standard, more accurately represented the way the singer had voiced it, and in those cases we ignored the rules (as also in a few cases where doing it "properly" would have resulted in confusing notation with certain sounds apparently assigned to the wrong notes).

The standard approach doesn't, I've found, always reflect the way words actually need to be pronounced or divided; the criteria seem to be mixed between the visual and the aural. A compromise for the sake of manageability, perhaps; but if you do find an accessible reference for the standard "rules", do let us know. It would be quite useful.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

John in Brisbane: May I ask, why are you splitting words into syllables in the first place?

It's OK if you're preparing sheet music and you want to align each syllable of the lyrics with the corresponding note in the musical staff, but if you're splitting syllables for any other reason, my advice is, don't do it. In ordinary text, syllabification is a disappearing practice, and in my opinion, good riddance.

I only mention this because I noticed recently that you posted some lyrics here with the syl -la -bles all sep -a -ra -ted like this, and I see no reason for it. The main problem is that it makes those lyrics impossible to find with any search engine. Also, it's impossible to check with a spell-checker, and a bit hard to read, as well.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 01:52 PM

Hey, John, I agree with you on syllabication when you are trying to show emphasis and spacing in a song when it is impractical to give the sheet music. Unlike Jim, I see a reason for it.

To satisfy search engines, I doubt if anyone goes much beyond titles and first lines, which can be shown unsyllabified to satisfy these inhuman critters.

Rules? Yes, they may be found in style guides, but the simplest guides are those shown in a good dictionary such as Webster's Collegiate or Oxford Shorter Dictionary, etc. They cannot, however, be applied when dealing with texts 'as they was writ.'

To give a simple example, 'Long Island' is pronounced by some New Yorkers as 'Lon- Giland.' As Malcolm said, words sometimes must be represented as 'voiced' by the singer.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 02:36 PM

Observations (opinion only and not from any special knowledge):

It seems to me that the rules for syllabification that you would find in a dictionary are for hyphenation in written (not sung, not sheet music) text. Not particularly relevant.

Then there's "singing well", as touched on by Susan (WYSIWYG), where you want to emphasise open-mouthed vowels for good tone production, using consonants for punctuation.

Then there's what "the folk" might actually do. :-) Malcolm touches on the issue of trying to transcribe what actually happened, when it conflicts with what might be more "correct" or even easier or more logical to a different singer.

What's your aim? Taking a text and trying to figure out how the lyrics scan through the notes? Are you singing for performance and working on good tone? Are you transcribing or emulating a particular singer's rendition? Are you transcribing for other singers' use? Compromises will be inevitable.

--

Going back to John's original question, it sounds like WYSIWYG's going the direction you're looking for, so I'll quit now. :-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

By WHICH singer?

If you're merely trying to reproduce what some star had on his/her CD, that's fine, I suppose. But if you're making the song your own, and if (as not everybody is) you want to make the words and story line, if any, clear, you need to look to the e-nun-ci-a-tion.

For instance, in A Bird in a Gilded Cage", you need to be sure the final consonants are CLEAR, CLEAR, CLEAR! Thus "For her beauty was sold for an old man's gold" becomes "For her beau-ty was sooo l D for an oooo l D man's gooo l D-----She's a bird in a giiil-ded cage!"
"Gilded" is not "gillllllllld-ed" but "giiiiii L ded", holding the I and sort of sliding over the L.

The held note of sold or old or gold should not be on the "L", as might be tempting, but rather on the "O", and the "L" is just touched on, and the "D" is almost "Duh". "Win" is not "Winnnnnnnn", but "Wiiiin", with the consonant just prominent enough not to get lost.
"Light" should be "Liiiiiigh-t".

I came from a part of the country where in speech we pronounced a final R as "ARRR" or "ERRR". I resented the advice of singing-enunciation books that a final "R" not be pronounced, as being stuck up or English-regional or something. And yet, after a long time of listening to really good singers in various genres--take for instance Sinatra--I realized that the clear (and non-regional)singing of excellent singers was often because they followed these what you might call formal rules, but without posturing about it. Today, a final R in my singing (I discovered recently) come out as "-eah" with a sort of R overtone to it. "Here" is closer to "heah", although not exactly. And I, at least, don't think it sounds mannered or stuck up.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

"Gilded" in the sheet music chorus is composed only of two notes and two syllables: 'gild-' and '-ed.' "Holding the i and sliding over the l" is the three sheets in the wind version.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 05:00 PM

That's a useful example; "gild-ed" would be the "correct" way to split the word (in this case separating the two structural elements so that "gild" remains a whole word), but it would usually be sung "gil-ded". A dilemma...

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

Dark liddle secrit. Don't anyone record me when I'm not watching my diction. Gil-did?

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 06:03 PM

Dave, you say 'To-geth-er' - why not "to-ge-ther"? Same with "broth-er." Seems to me that we pronounce it "bro-ther," but I know the dictionary agrees with your method. I have this nagging thought that if I had paid more attention to the nuns in school, I would have a much easier time with syllabication (syllabification, syllabization, or syllabisation....).

I do a lot of breaking into syllables when I transcribe melodies. I tend to use the breaks shown in the dictionary, although I guess a lot instead of looking things up. One thing I really hate to see is breaking single syllables into multiple ones, an apparent attempt to match syllables to notes. In "Angels We Have Heard on High," we come out with the lunacy of "glo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ri-a."

For the sake of uniformity at Mudcat, and for ease of reading and searching and harvesting and everything, I wish that people would post the entire text of a song, without intermixing chords, or hyphens for syllables. The chords or hyphenated parts should then be repeated, before or after the entire song text - leaving the text intact. It's a bear to make any sense out of text that's mixed with syllables and chords.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 06:24 PM

Personally, I'd be as happy with 'To-ge-ther' as 'To-geth-er', especially if the second syllable was spread over half-a-dozen notes, and I'd prefer 'bro-ther' to 'broth-er' because I could imagine myself singing 'broth' and then realising I had the wrong vowel sound. That's why I don't think it would be easy to come up with reliable rules - English just isn't that obliging. The only rules I think are really worthwhile are:

i) Never steer the sound in the wrong direction
ii) Make the syllables as recognisable as possible. I think this leads you to follow the dictionary style except where it conflicts with rule (i).
iii) Once you've sorted out (i) and (ii), the syllables should fit back together to make the word. Without this, you risk confusing 'lose' and 'loose' for example.

Subject: RE: Lyrics Syllabisation
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 07:28 PM

If it is of any interest;

My mother's mother could just remember Queen Victoria dying - at least when all the shop windows had black cloth and pictures of the queen instead of what they sold. She lived in the village of Fulford now a suburb of York, Yorkshire, England.

She used to sing Bird in a Gilded Cage, and she was a good mimic - I have heard recordings of music hall artists and sometimes the familiarity makes my hair stand on end. Even songs sung by men, the phrasing and vocal mannerisms are recognisable.

I'm afraid I did not make notes - assuming I can always go back and find them again, but the 'on stage' pronunciation would seem to be guil - dered cayge in her rendition of the song, with emphasis on cage. Nanna would always lift her hand to her cheek at the words ''Tis sad when you think' in the chorus - as though to wipe away a theatrical tear.

This would be overacting today of course, but would probably date to music hall performances before the Great War.

Anne