Folklore: 'on the charlie'

Subject: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:50 AM

I'm curious about the origin of the term "on the charlie" AKA on the bum, hobo-ing, etc. The Ballad Index lists "Been on the Cholly so Long" as a variant of the "Joseph Mica" branch of the "Casey Jones" ballad family, and D.K. Wilgus mentioned the term on the liner notes to Native American Ballads on RCA. Jerry Silverman's Folk Song Encyclopedia also contains a song called "Been on the Charlie So Long." But I can't find anything else about the term, where it came from, etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

Here's my guess:

"Cholly" is a old, hardly used any more nickname for "Charlie".
"Mr. Charlie" was a rather commonly used African American nickname for "the White man". [for the 1940s or so].

"The White man" could be shorthand for 'the system'. "The "system" could be shorthand for being without money-and bums are often without money.

Hence, "being on the cholly" may have meant being on welfare or worse {being without any money to speak of}.

The entry for "Cholly" in Clarence Major's 1994 dictionary of African American slang "Juba To Jive" lends a bit of support to some of my guess work:


"Cholly" n - a dollar bill. May be associated with "Charlie" {for white man} who was associated with power {money}."

****

One example of "Cholly" as a nickname, there's Cholly Atkins, African American jazz dancer & choreographer. And Cholly was the name of a central character in African American Toni Morrison's novel "The Bluest Eye".

Of course, I might be completely off base with this guess. But then, again, I might be right on the money.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:22 PM

Sorry- somehow what I didn't write what I thought...

Let's try that again..

The White man" could be shorthand for 'the system'

Part of the system is "Welfare". And part of [public] welfare is getting your check {money}. Even on welfare you're hard pressed to make ends meet.

So Charlie="the system" could be shorthand for being without money-and maybe the referent to Charlie {Cholly} as bum grew from this since bums rarely have money.

Hence, "being on the cholly" may have meant being on welfare or worse {being without any money to speak of}.

Of course, I might be waaay off base with this one. I'm curious what other people find.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Bert
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:17 PM

A charlie is also a chamber pot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:43 PM

Ha! So that person was talkin bout sittin on the slop jar
[a pretty good song from War by the way]

Maybe it would help if the words to one of those Been On The Charlie {Cholly} songs was posted. Maybe seeing the wotd in context would help us figure out what it means.

But maybe not.

And come to think of it, maybe those songs are in the DigitalTradition archive. I haven't checked.

Maybe I should.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:49 PM

Well no luck there.

The supersearch box yielded nothing in the DT for Been on the Cholly or Been on the Charlie.

What was strange was I thought I'd at least get this thread for the key phrase "on the charlie".

But I got 5 messages in threads that included the name "Charlie".


Also, I couldn't find any lyrics or the origin of the phrase using Google .

That phrase wasn't in several books I have on the origin of slang and colloquial terms either.

Hmmmm.

Anybody else giving it a go?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: GUEST,steve benbows protege at work
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:47 AM

charlie is often used as a reference to coke or cocaine. Hence songs like "take a wiff on me."
In the old blues and jugband that is used alot.

However i could be wrong and could be a different context. in the title of the song you have given could it not mean road... hence a well popular song title but could have been a slang   version.

i will keep my eyes open and see what i can find.

Regards.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:10 AM

Just a thought . . . 'on the bum' at the time often meant riding the rails, train tracks are usually laid out in straight lines just like . . . .

Too much of a stretch?

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:10 AM

And of course one of the most famous bums or hobos known to millions early in the last century was Charlie Chaplin!

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: s&r
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

On the charlie appears all over the web implying a habitual cocaine user. One of my reference books (Partridge's Slang and unconventional English) gives 'Charley Hunt' as a derivative for 'Charley' implying I suppose that the guy's a womaniser

Stu

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:13 PM

'Charlie' in Oz is slang for a woman/girlfriend, see s&r's post above. In Blighty it means a stupid person, as in "A right bloody charlie he is!"
Just in the interest of adding more confusion to the mix.

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:54 AM

No comment...

;~(
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: David C. Carter
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:11 AM

"Good Time Charlie's Got The Blues"-Danny O'Keefe.Think the title is to an extent self explanatory.

David

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:13 PM

There was "Champagne Charley" back in the golden age of the 19th century,

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Folklore: 'on the charlie'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

Maybe this will help. I'm beginning to think that 'on the charlie' refers not to bumming but to trains or something else. Clearly, the characters in this ballad are gainfully employed.

WRECK OF THE SIX WHEELER
Transcribed from recording by
Newton Gaines, Texas, 10-12-29
(BVE-56368-2) on Native American Ballads (RCA LPV-548)

Monday morning it begin to rain
Around the curb came a passenger train
On the Charlie was old Jimmy Jones
He's a good old porter but he's dead and gone
Dead and gone, he's dead and gone
He's been on the Charlie so long.

Joseph Mica was a good engineer
He told his fireman not to fear
All he wanted, keep it good and hot
"We'll make Canton 'bout 4 o'clock,
'Bout 4 0'clock, 'bout 4 o'clock,
Been on the Charlie so long."

When we was about a mile of the place
Number One stared us right in the face
Conductor looked at his watch and he mumbled and said,
"We may make it, but we'll all be dead,
All be dead, we'll all be dead
I've been on the Charlie so long."

When the two locomotives was about to bump
Fireman was preparing for to make his jump
Engineer blowed the whistle and the fireman balled
"Oh, Mr. Conductor, won't you save us all,
Save us all, Oh, save us all,
I've been on the Charlie so long."

Oh, you oughta been there for to see the sights
Running and a-screaming both black and white
Some was crippled and some was lame
But the six wheel driver had to bear the blame
Had to bear the blame, had to bear the blame
He's been on the Charlie so long.

Ain't it a pity, Oh, ain't it a shame
That the six wheel driver had to bear the blame
He'd been on the Charlie so long.

Gonna lay my head, gonna lay my head
Down on some railroad line
Let the Sante Fe, let the Sante Fe come and satisfy my mind
Let the Sante Fe, let the Sante Fe come and satisfy my mind
Gonna lay my head down on some railroad track
When the train come along, I sure gonna jerk it back.


I also posted these lyrics on this Casey Jones thread