The Future of Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM

The folk police are more upfront and loudly announce their presence in the intervals at concerts, folk festivals, folk clubs... they have certain catch phrases like, I PREFER CARTHY'S VERSION EVERY TIME....! and I'M SORRY!(they're always sorry) ITS NOT WHAT I CALL FOLK MUSIC! and the dead giveaway, I HAVEN'T PRACTISED THIS ONE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS (just to let you know that if they REALLY tried they would be much better than anyone else on the planet).

Well I never, I don't think I have ever heard anything like that.

But then I don't go to those "I only do it for the love of the music and this is real folk music not like what them people who get paid for it do and here is a song I wrote about how my love let me down when I was six" folk clubs that you seem to enjoy.

Should any of the folk establishment - who as far as I can see only exist in your over-fertile imagination - appear, do let me know!
And do getout more!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

Look sit in front of your microphone and pretend the folkscene is exactly what they tell you it is on the Mike Harding Show and in Froots, fantasise a world in which we think you're the MAN!

It seems to work for rest of 'em, but don't tell me I don't understand the ground underneath my feet. You're the people with the imagination, you never go to folk clubs - you're the ones who imagine they understand folk music.

Minus the nasty grubby folk who populate reality of course.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:15 PM

You know, if I wasn't involved in a warm, friendly, vibrant and thriving folk scene, I'd find all this a bit depressing.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:04 AM

"The worst thing about folk clubs is that there are too many folk songs sung in them" I believe someone actually said that.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:57 AM

Why not listen to the show - before you pass judgement on it?

Actually don't bother there will be no-one you have heard of.

In the past two weeks:

Brian Peters, Watersons, Maggie Boyle, Pogues, Kerfuffle, Hekety, Crucible, Glorystrokes, Guichen Quartette, Les Barker, Anahata and Mary Humphries, Last Night's Fun, Capercaillie, Bellowhead, Sam Larner, Ewan MacColl, Peggy Seeger, Craobh Rua, Lal Waterson, Simon Mayor, Jim Causley, Swan and Dyer, Steeleye Span, Nic Jones, Devil's Interval, Waterson:Carthy, Sharon Shannon, Flook, Martyn-Wyndham Read, Duncan Mc Farlane Band, Blowzabella, Wyke and Driscoll, Fraser Sisters, Robin Garside, Fraser Sisters and excerpts from the original Radio Ballads. This week so far it looks like: The Outside Track,Bella Hardy, Dave Swarbrick,Craig Morgan Robson, Breabach, Lisa Knapp, Askew Sisters, Young Coppers, Wrigley Sisters, Billy Pigg, and Brass Monkey.

I'm waiting to play Demon Barbers, Malinky, Kitching and Bartley, John McCusker, Alistair Russell and I shall be doing a feature on the Sheffield Carols including the Glenrock Carol Singers from Pennsylvania. Then there's Kathryn Tickell, Eric Bogle, Carolyn Robson, Kimber's Men, Notts Alliance, Voice Squad, Barry Dransfield, Skyhook, Salsa Celtica, Will Noble, Stocai, Chris Wood - an eleven minute track there, Shepheard, Spiers and Watson, Moving Hearts, Louis Killen, Planxty, Christy Moore, Blue Murder, Doonan's, Vin Garbutt, Whaley and Fletcher, John Conolly Ray Fisher, Tom McConville, John Cocking and so on. Then there are the tradition bearers, Phil Tanner, Frank Hinchcliffe, Fred Jordan, Walter Pardon and new bands like the Shee.

In fact as you say - just like the Mike Harding Show.

Of course if you believe that the clubs are the place where real folk music takes place then you won't want people listening on the radio will you?

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:08 AM

Folkiedave: just read through your very interesting looking playlist. Now, I don't see the names Will Duke and Dan Quinn there, and I mention this because I saw them recently for the first time and they seem to do traditional English folk better than anyone else I've for a very very very long time. Look out for them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:10 AM

Hi Greg,

Same reason as there are others missing, most notably the Boat Band!!

No record!! Would love to play them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:18 AM

CD's in the post!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:19 AM

Dave,

I like what I have heard of your show....but you could help with the future of folk clubs (there not all that bad honest!)by mentioning Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club and our opening night on Saturday 24th November featuring
Wendy Arrowsmith , Kim Guy & Ian McKone!

These will be 3 "proper" performances and then a singaround until the wee small hours......which will be friendly to old (& young) traddies and to young (& old) sniggy snoggies.

The only thing that will be compulsory will be smiling!

.....and it's only an hour (and a little bit) from Sheffield!!!!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

Indeed, not only can I mention it - I most certainly will!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM

Thanks Dave....and it would be great to see you at some point....maybe we can cure your "clubitis"........

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:34 AM

Oh did I mention:

Wednesday 5 December in the side room at the Beech on Beech Road in Cholrton, Manchester, we plan to hold a Singaround.

The general idea is that we gather in the side room and sing mostly, but not exclusively, traditional folk songs. We will probably play a few tunes as well and people may recite poems. Card tricks have been known but the handling of ferrets is most unwelcome.

I don't think people will stand up and whilst we will be sociable and chat about this and that I trust singers etc. will be heard with something akin to er ... respect.

No charge will be made, I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing. If two singers are present we will probably sing songs in turn until we run out of songs or time. If 6 singers turn up we will all sing one then go round again. I guess we will have a break and people can announce other events such as:
07824 364 602 for details

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:03 AM

The unfortunate thing about people who come up to performers and say the likes of "... well, I prefer Carthy's version...", or whatever, is that the ones who are susceptible to that kind of criticism, are generally the one's that need a bit of a confidence boost, and they can be turned off Folk Music for good, because the standard they are 'required' to attain, seems so far off from where they are at the present.

It's another dynamic of this, that generally the person who is making the criticism would hardly know what end of the guitar to hold, never mind '... the Carthy version'.

I'm glad I was able to offset this at an early age; I was influenced by musicians who were pushing the boundaries themselves, so I felt secure in what I was doing.
Other's didn't pull through that constant brow-beating, and now '...used to play the flute', and things...

I hope it is a practice that is in it's descendant, because it effects the confidence of the young player...., and indeed the perception of the newcomer to the Club.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

"But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say."

Hey Greg, where's that pub?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:55 AM

Beech, Beech Road, Chorlton, 5th December

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:56 AM

or The Black Horse Kirkby Fleetham 24th November!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:03 AM

Richard Bridge:
you quoted me saying
"But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say."
Then you enquired where the pub was. I was actually making a very precise, not romanticised, picture of a night in the Greyhound, Penkhull, Stoke-on-Trent with guests Will Duke and Dan Quinn, and hosts the Boat Band and various other locals. I say "guests" but not as in "folk club guests". It was an open evening in the bar with the locals.Will and Dan came from away, that's why I said guests.
    Thaty's the sort of night I like. I take it you do too! Come along some time.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM

Folkiedave, the playlist for your show is fantastic. Is there a website or anything where people on the wrong end of Snake Pass for Sheffield can listen to it?

I'm not personally convinced that folk clubs are the only place or even the main place to hear folk music these days... of course it all depends what your definition of folk music is. If like WLD seems to advocate, 'folk music' is exactly the same as 'music-played-at-folk-clubs-with-the-exception-of-traditional-music-which-is-clearly-the-last-refuge-of-middle-class-tossers-and-the-establishment' then the discussion is over. Personally, I came to love (what I think of as) folk music without the intercession of the folk club scene. Folk clubs were never part of what my peers did - we were more interested in gigs. Banjiman's conception of what a folk club could be makes me think again though... meanwhile, there's always Les's singaround at the Beech in Chorlton on 5th November!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:07 AM

Sorry, 5th December...

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM

A different plot - thanks Nigel

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Please come and try it some time then Nigel.

You would be extremely welcome.....I just hope after all the hype that people do come and enjoy!

Otherwise there will be no future for this folk club!

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

Nigel - see This Thread for Folkiedave's radio show links.
You can listen live on the web and also afterwards as a podcast (look for "folk")
(and BTW the podcast IS working now).

Anahata

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM

Alot depends on hard working organisers ,they are often amateurs yet are expected to be professional,they have to be enthusiastic, hard working and be able to promote their clubs in a professioinal way ,they also need to remember they are aclub ,not a mini concert,they have to be friendly and welcome to all.this is apretty tall order.
They also need to be able to find cheap suitable venues[another tall order]working mens/social clubs are generally good bets,cheap beer and stability of ownership.
Iwould like to thank all the organisers over the years who have given me gigs and enabled me to play the music I love.Thankyou to allthose who have done a thankless task .DickMiles

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:53 AM

"Iwould like to thank all the organisers over the years who have given me gigs and enabled me to play the music I love.Thankyou to allthose who have done a thankless task"

Second that.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

Sounds a bit far from Kent, sorry chaps

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

Start one up, Richard...

The scene needs good heads.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM

We used to do one in the pub next door to my house. Old school, tatty, but it did have a fire. It was often a bit rowdy, but we did have some good nights, and those too drunk to drive (most of us) used to sleep at my house (all right, drink some more, then sleep) and then I would put stew into survivors about noon on Sunday.

But it got to be a bit of a hassle and we gave up, not least because the pub stopped serving proper beer and only had keg. The pub is derelict now and will fairly soon be four houses (two pairs of semi dets, the slums of the future)

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM

Sounds like what we're trying to do at the Woodshed session in the Wrotham Arms Broadstairs... did I mention the first one is this Friday, 8.30.......!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

I love these circular discussions.....Richard, if you can't come to us, we''ll come to you (Kent anyway)....we'll see you at The Wrotham Arms, Broadstairs on April 5th. Wendy Arrowsmith and her trusty banjo playing sidekick to provide your Saturday evening entertainment?

synbyn, sorry we can't make your woodshed session on Friday, I'll be busy worrying about Saturday night!

I know this thread is about Folk Clubs but I really enjoy playing pub gigs too... a bit more laid back and a different kind of challenge.

Paul

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:59 PM

"I know this thread is about Folk Clubs but I really enjoy playing pub gigs too"

Ahhh, but isn't that the nub of it, really, Banjiman...., most Folk Clubs meet in pubs.
It really is only a question of 'changing the theme' for the nights one wants to turn a pub into a folk club.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:05 PM

ssssshhhhh Brendy, be quiet, don't tell everyone or they'll all be doing it! What will I have as a USP then?

Paul :)

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM

It's nice to have a little positive feedback about club organisers for a change. Thank you.

Nigel Spencer

I'm not personally convinced that folk clubs are the only place or even the main place to hear folk music these days...

I don't think anybody is saying they are but they are part of the scene and, I think, a valuable one. I know that the (middle-aged) teenage diary singers and guitar obsessives exist but they are a tiny minority and easily avoided. It doesn't help the future of folk clubs if Folkiedave goes around telling the world that's what they are like.

You should get out more Dave. Your play list is wonderful and I've seen a lot of them in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

It's a bit like which is the most important leg of a 3 (?) legged stool.

Folk Clubs, Music on CD by pro and semi pro people, radio programmes, festivals, sessions, singarounds, barn dances, morris, mummers ....

..... each contributes and benefits from the others. Pick the ones you enjoy and trust they all survive and grow bit.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

Anahata - thanks for the link to Dave's radio show. I shall go and explore his podcasts whilst I paint my back room...

Paul - I will try to get to Kirkby Fleetwood eventually and also use the occasion as an excuse to stomp through some hills for a day in my big boots...

Snail - I suppose I can only go on what's available to me locally. I suspect if I lived in, say, Lewes, I would have a very different opinion. And access to Harveys' beers! My local folk club, when I visited it, was great fun but on the whole not really my sort of music - mainly singer songwriter stuff with a bit of early rock 'n' roll and poetry thrown in and only our 'Les from Chorlton' playing any traditional music. I had a great night out and I'll go again, but when it comes to seeing folk music live it's nearly always concerts for me rather than clubs at the moment. I hope this can change - one thing I do like about the pub/club setting is the smaller scale.

I suspect I should probably try to do something about it rather than whinge from the sidelines. That's going to be my new year's resolution, in fact...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:13 PM

And what Les said.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:20 PM

You're right about the stool, Les. In say 1960 the clubs were the main leg of the stool, in fact it was more of a shooting stick as they were the dominant part of the show. That, luckily I would say,is no longer the case, there are loads of different activities going on. As I mentioned earlier in this thread for example, out of the last twenty gigs I played, only one was in a folk club.
There are so many different scenes and sub-scenes, it isn't remotely homogeneous, which is excellent. This wonderful variety can be threatened, of course, if one small sub-group can get its hands on the media and publicity outlets for example.In that case the public may be given a very distorted and narrow view of what is in fact a very varied kind music. This is a possible danger that might need thinking about, but things will hopefully change. Basically folk music is a many headed hydra that grows in all directions, and changes shape as well. Knocking one bit on the head won't affect the rest much. Which is as it should be.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM



No Greg it just grows two more heads.

Anyway who's doing the knocking?

Not me.

I am enjoying just being a part of it all.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

We know your secret Chas ....................... which is more than Mr Darling does

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM

Let me make it plain that if there were a decent folk club in Sheffield booking decent guests or with decent residents then I would be happy to go.

Kiveton is good, but way out for me.

Barnsley is as far away.

I find it remarkable that Lewes - supports two folk clubs both of which look pretty decent to me - whereas Sheffield can't even support one.

It can't be the lack of organisers - we have loads of them or lack of young people - we have loads of them too. Plenty of good sessions I suppose is the problem - people go there and can get a good fix of the music they love.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM

But there is a need for the 'concept' of a Club in the Sheffield area, would you say?

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

We have loads of sessions and we get some well-known and professional musicians at those sometimes. So we don't go short.

I do feel the need to get into a club and have a good sing sometimes as I used to. But I will get that over the next few weeks with the carols.

In folk clubs I was brought up on damn good floor singers and damn good professionals and I miss them.

Take a look at the play list and you can see where I am coming from.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:11 PM

I see what you're doing, Folkiedave, and fair play to you.

I believe that all places play their part in keeping the scene active and healthy. The Folk Clubs and sessions where I musically grew up gave birth to a whole new wave of musicians, and this has played no small part in keeping the Irish tradition alive, over home.

There's places in England that are sadly lacking in outlets where the public can feel the tradition close at hand; Lewes has two successful ones, and Kent is 'sadly lacking'

It's fine that you have the carols for the next few weeks, but if there is nothing much for miles around, then something grass-rootsy, which covers as much of the tradition as it can is needed, and my point is that if 'deprived areas' (let's call them), stay that way, there's more of a chance than none that other people too, will 'get over it'

And I don't really think, in the wider scheme of things, that that's terribly healthy in the long run.

I applaud people who do it 'for the scene'. That is it's own reward: money is only one kind of currency.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:17 PM

I haven't read the thread due to lack of time, and probably someone has discussed this..but I think there will be much on the internet for us to do. mg

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 08:41 PM

I was part of a team that took over the running of the lowest performing pub in a grotty old Irish theme pub, a good few years back.
We had a good bar manager, an excellent head chef, friendly and enthusiastic staff, and I took care of the website, the MP3 collection, the booking of the artists, the mailing lists, general P.R., and I redesigned everything inside, right down to the menu (terms of lease meant we couldn't do anything to the outside).

There was nary a Pogues song, nor a Waterboys number played in the place, not that the public didn't 'demand' it, mind you.

We called it a 'Traditional Pub', and the playlists in the pub were carefully controlled by yours truly.

The pub shot up to first place in the chain within 6 months.
The place has changed hands a few times since then, but a few of us proved that even in a foreign country, with careful management (... a weaning process that could sometimes be painful...) the 'concept' works.

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Brendy - I might not have made it clear enough - loads of music in "central" Sheffield - much of it high quality - just that there is no "traditional" folk club.

I'd like one, true, how much I could support it nowadays I am not sure, now I am retired I am busier than ever.

I think your story of reviving shows the hard work involved and there is not doubt that getting a club going in Sheffield would require all those things. Someone tried it a while ago but it was too much for one. Then the venue closed.

And we do have song carriers locally (still) and the carols and so on.

And now a radio programme at last. And I must get on a prepare this weeks!!!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:54 AM

Know the feeling Dave.
Don't know how I used to hold a full time job and do what I'm still doing now. Time seems to fly by. Perhaps I'm moving in slow motion to every thing else.

Found this for you

modern concertia playing

might suit you program list.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:23 AM

Hi Chas, indeed it would - and I have the three disc set that Alan Day did too.

Look out for ore concertina music!!

Dave

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM

Folkiedave

I find it remarkable that Lewes - supports two folk clubs both of which look pretty decent to me - whereas Sheffield can't even support one.

It can't be the lack of organisers - we have loads of them or lack of young people - we have loads of them too. Plenty of good sessions I suppose is the problem - people go there and can get a good fix of the music they love.

There are more sessions around here than you can shake a fiddle bow at, some of them, as I have said, run by residents of one or the other Lewes club. I'm not sure if the connection has been made, but Will Duke and Dan Quinn that Greg so rightly praises are residents (along with Vic and Tina Smith) of the Royal Oak club. Will runs one of the oldest sessions, originally started by Vic Gammon. They don't seem to detract from the success of the clubs.

Take a look at the play list and you can see where I am coming from.

It's a superb list Dave and we've booked quite a lot of the people on it as have the Royal Oak, not to mention the Seaford and Horsham clubs.
The damn good floor singers and damn good professionals are still out there. I can't help you with your problems in Sheffield except to say that, yes, it is too much for one person and you do need a venue.
But please, can you stop telling the World that folk clubs are nothing but diary singers and guitar twiddlers?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

Point taken Snail.

What I think I originally said when this discussion started on other thread(s) was that I used to go to clubs and stopped because I never saw anyone my lifted my heart.

I acknowledge the work that the better clubs do and am happy to do so.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:42 AM

Thanks Dave. I hope someone gets a traditional club going in Sheffield. It ought to be fertile ground.