Richard Digance

Subject: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:09 AM

I note that over on Folk against Fascism, a poster has termed Richard Digance a racist.

I am not clear that that is a criticism customarily levelled at Digance.

Is it said of him and why?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:09 AM

Unless Richard Digance has changed changed a great deal since I last saw him, the remark is twaddle, of course. However, it seems common these days to label anyone, whose views on any aspect of race controversy do not photo fit one's own, a racist. It seems to get casually tossed around like other words such as "Nazi", "Fascist" and "bigot". There is a real danger of making these words redundant through careless over use.

Please excuse the thread drift Richard.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,A human being
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:30 AM

Richard Digance is not racist, if he is why is he my friend.
Please consider the danger of labelling (libeling) such a lovely bloke.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:15 AM

neither is Joe Stead a racist.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:47 AM

No, it's not BS - it's about a singer (and comedian) and the remark is made elsewhere about his apparent booking for Cropredy this year.

So, assuming for the purposes of this post that the allegation is false, how did it originate and how and why is it being perpetuated?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Silas
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:06 AM

Well, Richard, it is being perpetuated by threads like this...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM

I do not think so. The purpose of the thread is to establish the truth (or more likely complete falsehood) of the allegation.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:24 AM

in 1985,as a member of The New Mexborough Concertina quartet,we recorded some material for an lp for Dambuster.
we recorded this material for Richard Digance on the understanding that he would release it as an lp.
without any discussion he sold this recording to Dave Bulmer ,who has subsequently hidden it away.
I was fairly pissed off with Richard Digance,however I have to say in fairness to him,that he never struck me as a racist,I have never heard him utter one racist comment,furthermore on the two occasions I booked him for clubs,Inever once heard him say anything racist.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:40 AM

So that's no-one having been aware of such an assertion in the past, is it?

Someone who knows ought to trot over to FaF and set them right then.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 09:57 AM

I see it is a message from some one called Ken [Cropredy Festival],perhaps he has seen more of Richard Digance than I have,but it is libellous to call someone a racist,without having evidence to back it up[perhaps he has].
I would not cross the road to see Richard Digance,I booked him at folk clubs 30 years ago,as he was popular with club members,I do not recall anything that was racist.
somebody used to sing a song about Portugeuse,but I thought that was Derek Brimstone,so is Derek Brimstone racist?
I would be surprised.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 10:00 AM

"She loved a Portuguese" is a funny song, which actually takes the piss out of the narrator. It would be a little bizarre to label a singer of it as "racist" - although there are people around who like to take offence at lots of things.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 10:22 AM

The FaF comment, whether it be right or wrong

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 10:26 AM

So was I classed as a rascist, and when I asked that pesron why they never had the guts to answer me. So watch what you are writting, unless you know the person personally don't spread rummours.
I'll proberly get an answer form their 'friend'.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 10:33 AM

Yes, well, I was called a racist by one of the people running the FAF, and I ain't one either. It's why I won't have that page on mine.
I've found a good anti BNP one on Facebook though, thanks to jade, 'jeddy' on here.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rog Peek
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 12:35 PM

I was once accused of being a racist when I sang 'The Bricklayer's Song'!

Rog

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM

"The culture of offendedness" I think Harvey Andrews called it in a good thread a few years back. There certainly seem to be some folks out there, who like to take offence at things.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:13 PM

Mr. Bridge (esq)

In the USA - a thread of this nature

Begun by a lawyer

Could be classified with the disparaging term Ambulance Chaser

Trolling for such information is certainly NOT investigative research....and such pettifoggery might lead to a reprimend before the bar association.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

("solictor" - what a quaintly appropriate UK term for a "profession" - when interpreted in the madern American street application)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:28 PM

Seems to me, the allegation about Richard Digance would have been handled better in the thread where the allegation appeared. As Gargoyle says, starting a thread about it simply serves to broadcast the allegation further.
Seems to me that this is a thread about somebody's politics, not about his music. That being the case, why is it in the music section?
And thirdly, using just a person's name to title a thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Did he die? Did you attend a concert? Did he have puppies?
That being said, I'm glad you didn't give further credence to the allegations by titling it "Richard Digance is a such-and-such," which would broadcast the allegation all over Google.
Might I be correct in thinking, Richard, that your primary reason for starting this thread is simply to stir the pot?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:31 PM

Richard stir the pot?
Perish the thought!
You'll be telling me next his politics are left wing ;)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:42 PM

I started the thread because I wanted to know, and in the old days one could rely on getting information on the Mudcat. Despite many things, this is still an active forum where the enquiry will be seen.

Gargly, you are welcome to refer the thread to the Law Society if you wish. Mazel Tov.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 02:44 PM

PS - Joe - check the FaF thread. It's about the wisdom (or otherwise) of booking RD at a festival. That makes it about a musical topic as well as about a musical performer.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 03:26 PM

For heaven's sake grow up.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:44 PM

Yes, we certainly wouldn't want to book someone at a festival if he/she had improper ideas, would we? It wouldn't be British, if it weren't properly censored first.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:39 PM

It wouldn't be British, if it weren't properly censored first

Hey man, don't tar us all with the same brush! And he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:50 PM

1. Tell Woodie Guthrie what his music was about. I'm quite happy not to have racists or male antiabortionists at festivals.
2. The thread on FaF seems to have disappeared.
3. I saw no evidence there nor here that RD was a racist.
4. Therefore probably the OP there was a troll.
5. Therefore probably in the absence of (and unless anyone has) any evidence to the contrary RD is not a racist.
6. There! Isnt that better out in the open.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 05:52 PM

Funny how Americans seem to think they have the monopoly on free speech. It may be a part of the constitution, but there's such a thing as abuse of privileges.
You can have too much free speech, and then you end up offending others, in the exercise of your "rights"

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM

Yeah, but in the UK, it's the progressives who do the censorship...

Is it so horrible to have a male antiabortionist sing a traditional song at a folk festival? Is that the way it is in the UK, that a person has to pass a political litmus test before being allowed to sing a song? With all the pressure I get demanding the silencing of this and that and the other one, it sure seems to be the case.

Labels are a dangerous thing - they're just a prettied-up form of prejudice. Seems to me the underlying question in this thread is whether somebody should be labeled "racist." I think that stinks. I wonder what Richard Digance thinks about having a thread named after himself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM

Antiabortionists are simply slavers. They want to dictate what a woman does with her body. You want the KKK on folk platforms in the USA, Joe? Be careful, you'll have David Hannam over with you.

Digance should be happy. In the absence of evidence to the contrary we have concluded that there is no reliable indication that he is a racist. He would not be happy about that?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Martin Duffy
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:22 PM

Is it just me or is there some obsession here at Mudcat with accusing everyone & their dog of being racist?

Would Digance be happy? Probably not, for as we all know mud(cat) sticks!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:34 PM

Richard, I think there'd be a good chance a Ku Klux Klan member would make use of the stage to spew racist propaganda. That's what they do. I don't think the same is the case with your ordinary male antiabortionist, or with the many people who seem to merit the title "racist" in these parts. Yes, if a performer is known to take advantage of the stage as a political platform, then I think it's legitimate to make use of that history in making a booking decision. If the person's political opinions are not part of his performance, then I think a political litmus test is inappropriate.

Judge a performer on his/her performance, not on some label that's been pasted upon him.

The Folk Against Fascism thread, by the way, is alive, well, and as tedious as ever.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 06:54 PM

*sigh*

There isn't half a load of pompous shite talked on Mudcat in pursuit of "free speech".

Firstly, when Richard Bridge referred to a male anti-abortionist, he was referring to a specific British folk singer who wrote an anti-abortion song. So in this case, the political opinions are indeed part of his performance. It has been a source of contention on the British folk scene ever since.

Secondly, the originator of the thread on Facebook sent me a message, telling me that he had walked out of a Richard Digance performance because RD referred to his "good friend" Jim Davidson (for American readers, a comedian who tells a lot of racist jokes) and that RD proceeded to tell some dubious jokes during this performance.

As I have absolutely no way of substantiating this claim (or otherwise), I took the thread down. Even if this happened, I thought it was possible that the reference was tongue-in-cheek, but in the absence of evidence, I decided to take the thread down. It's only because the issue was revived here that I felt compelled to respond and explain.

Thirdly: tellya what, Joe - why not book a member of the Ku Klux Klan at your next festival or shindig. See how well their "improper ideas" go down.


I won't bother to respond to some of the other gratuitous nonsense on this thread (some people will take any opportunity for a pathetic pop) except to say, in the words of my friend Ian Anderson, Life is too bloody short.


As you were.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:43 PM

"Antiabortionists are simply slavers. They want to dictate what a woman does with her body."

Weren't opponents of slavery sometimes criticised on the grounds that they wanted to dictate what slaveowners did with their property?

But I'd suggest that this is not an appropriate thread to carry on an argument about such matters, or about whether Vin Garbutt should be booked in particular festivals because of his views on this issue.
...............................

As for the Facebook accusation about about Richard Digance, I get suspicious about that kind of thing, as possible instances of dirty tricks propaganda. Misdirected or phony accusations of racism can be a way of undermining and discrediting genuine warnings.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:49 PM

Mudcat ,should [imo] be about the sharing of music,the passing on of songs, and the passing on of musical techniques.
The libelling of performers as racist,when there is no evidence to substantiate it is[imo] not appropriate.
Ruth,you have [imo]done the correct thing in removing that post,from folk against fascism facebook,it reflects badly upon FAF.
I do not like to see other performers libelled [ as I explained earlier Richard Digance is not a friend of mine],but I can imagine how I would feel if I was in his position.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 07:52 PM

Very Good point, Mcgrath,
I also think Digance is owed an apology.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:01 PM

Sorry, Ruth, but the credibility of your folkie compatriots is questionable. I hear such a steady stream of huffy self-righteousness coming from your side of the pond, that it's hard to take any of it seriously. It's clear to me that the compulsion to label and suppress is an integral part of British liberalism, while it is the very antithesis of American liberal thinking.

Labels without facts - are just plain prejudice.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:05 PM

"As for the Facebook accusation about about Richard Digance, I get suspicious about that kind of thing, as possible instances of dirty tricks propaganda. Misdirected or phony accusations of racism can be a way of undermining and discrediting genuine warnings."

Usually when something suspicious appears on the FAF page, I have a look at the originator - you can usually tell when it's our resident troll (but hey - he's just practicing free speech, right? Cloning Mudcat members' identities to defame them - just a bit of fun, isn't it? Lighten up! Live and let live!)

The person who started the Richard Digance thread wasn't an obvious BNP disruptor - and it's possible that he is completely sincere, and simply misinterpreted what RD said on that particular occasion. Until we have more evidence either way, it isn't really worth speculating.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:19 PM

"Sorry, Ruth, but the credibility of your folkie compatriots is questionable. I hear such a steady stream of huffy self-righteousness coming from your side of the pond, that it's hard to take any of it seriously. It's clear to me that the compulsion to label and suppress is an integral part of British liberalism, while it is the very antithesis of American liberal thinking."

Oh please. I grew up in America - the culture that virutally invented self-righteous sanctimony. It may be hard for you to take any of it seriously, but that's your luxury and your choice. The UK, on the other hand, has just elected two nasty pieces of Nazi filth to represent it in Europe. Why? Because not enough people stood up to the BNP's lies and spin. Because not enough people felt angry enough, or empowered enough, to speak out against them. Because not enough people took this threat seriously. Because not enough people are willing to stand up to the "soft racism" on their doorstep, so it becomes normalised, the thin end of the wedge. Bleating about free speech when confronting racism is a cop-out.

The British Nazis have been on a campaign of spin which has sought to gain them a place in legitemate politics in this country. This is a party that aligns itself with the KKK in America. If you choose to give them a platform (and you have) because of your wooly American liberalism, that's a choice you have to live with. Good luck to you, and in sleeping at night. It's certainly easier (and safer) to shrug and turn your back in the name of "free speech" than it is to stand up and fight them.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 08:25 PM

Woody Guthrie had "This machine kills Fascists" on his guitar. But then he wasn't exactly a "liberal". (And of course the words have more than one meaning.)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 10:43 PM

So, Ruth, step away from your dramatic hystrionics for a moment and tell us how many seats the UK has as a whole, if it's such a horrible thing that two BNP candidates were elected. If my count is correct, your BNP 'Nazi filth' have two seats out of 72.

Oh, and let's take another look at what Richard Bridge says about Vin Garbutt, who wrote a song called "Little Innocents" back in 1983, that simply dared to question the morality of abortion:

Antiabortionists are simply slavers. They want to dictate what a woman does with her body.

Oh, please!! Do you care to get yet more dramatic in your defense of your calls for suppression? You people are going to choke on your ideology if you don't open your minds a bit, and learn something about tolerance.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:51 AM

Joe, are you suggesting that supporting the 'rights' of fascist organisations to speak freely is more important than supporting the rights of their victims and intended victims to live freely? You say we should get a sense of proportion because we 'only' have two fascist MEPs. So how many is too many? 10? 20? 30? By then, I fear, it would be too late to effectively stop them from doing serious damage.

Fascism - in whatever form it finds it convenient to take - needs to be exposed and absolutely marginalised before it gets enough of a hold to do genuine damage.

For the record, people having pops at the likes of Richard Digance on probably spurious grounds has nothing to do with fighting fascism. The bringing of Vin Garbutt into the argument is utterly irrelevant - its an entirely different issue. And no-one's censoring him anyway. I also think its a bloody shame that the Folk Against Fascism thread, which could have been a useful information thread about the activities of the far right in trying to infiltrate the folk scene, turned into a tedious exchange between a handful of people. Typical bloody Mudcat, I thought. But - hey - that's free speech isn't it?

Finally, if you want to see how a proportion of the UK population chooses to excercise its free speech, try the spEak You're bRanes website. It makes Mudcat look almost sensible.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Silas
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:55 AM

Joe - you must remember that Hitler started with just one seat...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 02:56 AM

"Labels are a dangerous thing - they're just a prettied-up form of prejudice"

Bingo! Thanks for having the courage to say it Joe.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:07 AM

Kinda know what you're saying BWM, but equally, you wouldn't simply dismiss 'fascist' as a label when applied to the BNP, would you? Labels are sometimes simply things we attach to other things to make it clear what's actually in the tin. Erm, innit?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:12 AM

"Hitler started with just one seat..."
And one ball - according to rumour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:15 AM

"Joe - you must remember that Hitler started with just one seat..."

Hitler, he only had one seat
The other was where he'd put his feet
Himmler did something similar
And poor old Goebells had no stools at all

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Dave Earl
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:24 AM

"Oh, please!! Do you care to get yet more dramatic in your defense of your calls for suppression? You people are going to choke on your ideology if you don't open your minds a bit, and learn something about tolerance."


So you tolerate Organisations like KKK do you?



Dave

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:45 AM

"Joe, are you suggesting that supporting the 'rights' of fascist organisations to speak freely is more important than supporting the rights of their victims and intended victims to live freely? You say we should get a sense of proportion because we 'only' have two fascist MEPs. So how many is too many? 10? 20? 30? By then, I fear, it would be too late to effectively stop them from doing serious damage"

Excactly, Spleen - that's rather the point of trying to do something about all of this now.

Regarding FAF: well, god knows the English folk scene is fragile and vulnerable enough at the moment, without the bloody Nazis as well. The BNP have published documents which encourage their activists to infiltrate folk activity. Nick Griffin has cited Kate Rusby as one of his favourite singers, and has turned up at several traditional events in the past couple of years. The BNP are selling my friends' music on their website, and the artists concerned are powerless to do anything about it. Does this sound like histrionics? In a nice, cosy American liberal way, should we just pretend it's not happening in the name of free speech and tolerance and put our fingers in our ears and go "la la la"? Or should we take a stand now, before it goes any further?

"For the record, people having pops at the likes of Richard Digance on probably spurious grounds has nothing to do with fighting fascism. The bringing of Vin Garbutt into the argument is utterly irrelevant - its an entirely different issue. And no-one's censoring him anyway."

Indeedio. Which is why I took the thread down. Personally, Vin Garbutt's political views would not prevent me from booking him: one person's opinion on a controversial subject is just as valid as mine, and he has every right to express it. I would book Roy Bailey or Billy Bragg, so quite clearly I've no right to NOT book someone just because they express views I don't necessarily agree with.

This is quite different to giving a platform to right-wing extremists. Defending the rights of people who, as Spleen has said, are organised specifically to deny the freedoms and rights of others is a whole different ballgame. You may not take the threat from the BNP seriously, but the fact that they've won these two seats shows that their very carefully orchestrated campaign to infiltrate mainstream politics is working. And it's not just about the fact that two seats have gone: have a look at who is occupying them. Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons. Tell me, if someone who denied the holocaust and had once advocated the bombing of synagogues got elected to represent a constituency in your area, what would you do?

A few years ago they would have been unelectable. Now they represent us. Whether they are 1 or 100, this sickens me. But do tell me, Joe - is it histrionics to be worried that their election further legitimises their politics, and strengthens their cause? At what point ought we to start taking action?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:55 AM

"If the person's political opinions are not part of his performance, then I think a political litmus test is inappropriate.

Judge a performer on his/her performance, not on some label that's been pasted upon him."

Just as a by-the-way, Joe, I though I'd mention the fact that one of my favourite folk singers ever is Peter Bellamy. His political leanings were very far from my own, but it didn't stop him from being one of the finest interpreters of traditional song that Britain has ever produced.

How's the view from up there on that high horse, by the way?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:58 AM

Spleen Cringe:
Finally, if you want to see how a proportion of the UK population chooses to excercise its free speech, try the spEak You're bRanes website. It makes Mudcat look almost sensible.

Thanks for that link, SC - I've just laughed myself silly reading some of it! What with that and Charlie Brooker, there's hope for us yet.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 04:05 AM

"Defending the rights of people who, as Spleen has said, are organised specifically to deny the freedoms and rights of others is a whole different ballgame."

Isn't it just.


"How's the view from up there on that high horse, by the way?"

Only those who sit on high horses would ever know, I'd guess