Richard Digance

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:17 AM

I suggest that anyone who takes offence at Pete Seeger does it on purpose.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:41 AM

As an Englishman I'd have to admit American literature has pissed all over English literature for the past 80 years. On that basis the yanks can spell arse how they like.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:00 AM

Oooh! Literature with a capital "L". How very "folk".

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:01 AM

PS:

Terry Pratchett

JK Rowling

Or are their capital "L"s not large enough for you?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: greensue
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 05:07 AM

Joe, I think that the term disabled has been replaced with enabled. As an enabled person I can't keep up either. I tell people to look for the cripple in the corner at our pub if they need to find me. As a dictionary definition of a cripple I don't see why I can't say it, but some people are horrified. If something isn't said in a mean manner or with nasty intent surely it should be O.K.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:20 AM

Let's hope Bridge's list has been injected with irony, lathered in it and been deep frozen in a 50/50 irony-satire suspension, or the language of Shakespeare is in deep plop.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 06:27 AM

Get a thread you two.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 09:07 AM

This thread is drifting so far it's liable to be lost at sea. Or trapped in the legendary maelstrom of "What is Folk?"...

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 10:13 AM

what is folk,is like getting lost in the Bermuda triangle,ORfalling into a Black hole.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 11:50 AM

Try saying this 100 times very quickly without making a mistake.


Richard Digance in the Readers Digest



Bet you can't

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:35 AM

For seven years I lived on the route of the Notting Hill Carnival and around the time of August Bank Holiday at least I regarded my Afro-Caribbean neighbours as inconsiderate shits and usually escaped to Towersey instead.

So who thinks I am thus rendered racist? There's bound to be one . . .

On Mudcat I have ofttimes challenged the appallingly retro attitudes of certain men (and a few female hangers on) who treat music venues as places for picking up women who are apparently complicit in being treated as chattels.

Someone on this very thread translates this as evidence that I am "constantly putting men down". Not so. Just as I didn't hang around to endure and then whinge about the noise and filth generated at Maas in da Grove and blame it on a specific slice of the community, I have as little as possible to do with such ignorance, wilful or not, displayed by the benighted of whatever gender.

Folk Against Fascism has the potential to combat both.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:17 AM

>>On Mudcat I have ofttimes challenged the appallingly retro attitudes of certain men (and a few female hangers on) who treat music venues as places for picking up women who are apparently complicit in being treated as chattels.<<

Just trying to get my head around this.

I can't think of any folk club or folk concert venue where that happens. Maybe I go to the wrong places or I have led a sheltered life (NOT).

However, many friendships are made at such places. This may or may not lead to 2 people going out with each other.

If they are a single man or woman or indeed married, then I see nothing wrong in making friendships.

If they are married - its really up to them, if they decide they want to go off the rails.

Since I have been with my wife, I have remained faithful to her. I go to folk clubs on my own, to listen to the music, make banter and enjoy it with friends.

When I was single, I would go to discos, nightclubs, pubs etc etc, and yes, if you saw somebody you liked, you tried to tried to chat them up (it was the responsibilty of the man in those days) and sometimes that would lead to a romance, one night stand, frienship or nothing. I thought that was quite normal in life.
Nowadays, women are more forward and indeed make the first move.

It takes 2 to tango.

All I know Dianne, you have been very rude to a number of very respectable men, who you know nothing about, but becuase they make a comment on a thread, that is not to your taste, you have branded them perverts or something like that.

What the hell is wrong with you. Explain yourself?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:32 AM

IAFWAFIAWMWQ (to cite another Ian Anderson expression).

In bringing together two themes of this thread: racism and sexism intrinsincally linked in fascism and the potential role of FAF in opposing and overcoming them, I have awakened two gibbering upholders of an outdated status quo of inequality from the flatlands.

Well, well, could this be an example of Joe's "freedom of speech" policy exposing the bankruptcy of such depths of lack of intellect for what it is?

Bring on John Stuart Mill and Tom Paine. You're needed more than ever.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:52 AM

IAFWAFIAWMWQ

This is one acronym that's not worth learning. The expansion is far easier
to remember.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:56 AM

Actually, there are quite a few fRoots acronyms not worth learning. Why? Because they're all condescending put downs, used by folks who think they're intellectually superior to everyone else.

They ain't.

So, a man comes over to a woman and starts talking to her, and for that he's labelled some kind of chauvenist?

Sorry, Diane, but for way too long 'the women' have had it their way and their way alone.

If men treated women in the way that some women now treat men, there'd be all hell to pay.

It seems to me that the dreaded Feminism has turned our women into the worst kind of chauvenistic men, ones who feel that men don't really have a right to an opinion, are the butt of all crude jokes, are basically thick and neanderthal, and who can be approached and talked to in a very derogatory way, because.....that's what women now do.

Well fook that for a game of feminists!

It stinks.

And you know something, it does my heart good to hear the 60s feminists nowadays bleating 'but it wasn't supposed to be like this!"...because THEY are the ones who ensured it became this way. They turned men into objects of hate, branding ALL men chavenists and selfish, when of course, that was never true. They encouraged women to become anti-feminine, abandon their children in preference of their careers, because hell, a job is soooooo much more important than a child to the new breed of Intellectual Women who want to have it all....

But they forgot about the children...probably because they were so wrapped up in themselves and their 'mission' that they really didn't give a flying duck about babies and children anyway. Hell they're just irritating little brats that interfere in your life, and anyway, it's far better they're brought up by the State, so they can be taken away from the dreaded Family Unit.

Well, the results of the Selfish Philosophy are now out there on the streets of every city centre, The Lost Children, drinking themselves to death, lost in a world that has no time for them.

Fathers who are pushed aside, not needed, not wanted. The Law heavily weighed against them. Of course, the women take everything from them in divorce, especially the money, because the law ensures that the man suffers most, sometimes beyond any form of reason, but hell, it's OK, because it's happening to the men, and who the hell cares about them....It's the women who matter!

Fook that too.

It's all be weighted so unfairly against men for so long..and the women who've pushed for it to happen this way are NO better than the worst form of mysoginists who made some women's lives so utterly miserable. The Feminist movement should have the guts to stand up and say that they got many things wrong...and this hatred of men, by some, is one of those things, as is the abandonment of our children, as a nation, and the lack of respect now shown to anyone who wants to be a full time mother.

Well, motherhood is actually one of the hardest, most rewarding and most important jobs in the world, because we are raising the next generation, and once upon a time, in the days before women were brainwashed into trying to have it all and be better than men, it was the women who held society together, raising the children, creating the neighbourhoods, and safe ones at that, looking after the nation's workforce...a full time, bloody hard job in itself..

Are we better off, as a nation, as a world, now that no-one is really in charge of our children any more? No, imo.

Are we better off with empty houses, neighhourhoods devoid of people from dawn to dusk? No, imo.

Are we better off with the divorce rate rocketing as women find they can't cope with full time work AND trying to be a mother as well? No, imo.

We have created the most stressful of societies all round, where ALL are suffering, the men, the women and the children...in the name of what?

Feminism should have always been called Equality, because it was never a War, a war of Them & US....It was never about seeing men as the enemy, but getting each side to SEE each other, recognise each other's strengths and weaknesses, share the load of life a little more, be kind to one another...and first and foremost realise that the children matter more than mothers or fathers, because they are the future.....our future.

And now, back to the Male Mudslinging...but please note that NO man is talking about women in the way in which YOU are talking about men.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:00 AM

Yeah, yeah...

chauvinist
misogynist

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:22 AM

The only bit of evidence which seems to have been quoted against RD so far is a "friendship" with Jim Davidson. If that is a friendship rather than an acquaintance the it might perhaps be rather worrying.

Like many others I do find this "comedian's" smart-arse cockney whizz-kid humour extremely unfunny.

There again, I suppose you can be friends with someone without necessarily sharing their views.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 08:49 AM

Why not ask someone from "Folk FOR Fascism " ??---There must be such an organisation,surely,if only to counter the attempts at World Domination by its antithesis ??
            If anyone thinks that Richard Digance is a racist,or whatever,then my advice is not to book him,listen to him,or buy his records / CDs.Otherwise, it is really none of your business----is it ??

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:19 AM

Steady on, people!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: foggers
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 09:50 AM

Lizzie - I am fascinated that you think feminism could even be considered to have been so influential that all the ills of modern western society can be laid at its doorstep.

There are as many different "feminisms" as there are women who have thought about the politics and power relationships regarding gender, all around the globe. I still regard myself as a feminist and proud to be. I do not hate men - I hate social enequalities that mean that some groups in some societies are impoverished, persecuted, die younger and have no or little access to health, education, sanitation or basic civil rights. I believe in HUMAN rights, not just rights for women at the expense of children and men.

The kind of feminism you seem to be ranting about is one VERY narrow western white version that sprang from the likes of Betty Friedan's writing, that did indeed lobby for the chance to get away from being housewives and to have choices about education, career, contraception etc. It is mainly white, middle class women who were in that position in the 50s and 60s. Working class women (both white and women of colour) the world over have usually had to combine child rearing with enconomic activity, since time immemorial.

As for the original topic of this thread; I will be playing support to RD later in the year, so I await the experience with open minded curiosity now..........

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:11 AM

This thread is concerned with unacceptable and inappropriate attitudes and utterances in public performance and, indeed, whether to censor or regulate.

What it is NOT about is hysterical ravings from unreconstructed, middle-England nutters culled from Derry Street press releases whose aim (insofar as they appear to have one) is to restore "Merrie England" to pre-1950s "not many foreigners (just enough to empty the bins and drive the buses)" with women relegated to pre-war subjugation and Kinder, Küche, Kirche.

We can conclude, I think, that both this backwoodsperson and madlizziecornish (who, I am mightily relieved to confirm, I have never clapped eyes on) are reincarnations of Mary Whitehouse and well in the "oppress 'em and stamp on 'em" camp. And I think we can all do without their mindless, pointless yelling and spouting of entirely unsubstantiated, off-topic bollocks from close who have, clearly, no conception of the precise meaning of feminism, nor indeed, racism.

I have been talking about:

(a) the allegation (certainly as yet unproven and probably untrue) that a particular artist's material now includes Jim Davidson stylee claptrap and perhaps should not be booked at Cropredy, though I do, however, feel that it needs to be looked into carefully,

and

(b) the indisputable facts that Vin Garbutt does included oppressive and anti-feminist material unsuitable (IMO) for general festival/concert dissemination. I have also referred to highly unsavoury sexually predative behaviour at venues (well documented in threads passim) which certain posters have hitherto failed to deplore.

All these strands carry implications of oppression and whiffs of fascism and fall, in various ways, into the remit of FAF.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:24 AM

(a) agreed.
(b) first sentence agreed.

I really don't think that it will prove possible to prevent men being attracted to women, and women being attracted to men, and one of them doing something with a view to satisfying that attraction. Indeed I'm not sure it would be a good idea even if possible.

Oh, the same applies to men attracted to men, and women attracted to women, as the case may be.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:37 AM

Like foggers I'm proud to admit to being a 'feminist' of the kind she describes and 'some of my best friends' are men :)

Backwoodsman, I'm sure you are aware that personal attacks of that kind are not encouraged on mudcat; I, for one, do not endorse your views and hope they are summarily deleted.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:39 AM

>>I really don't think that it will prove possible to prevent men being attracted to women, and women being attracted to men, and one of them doing something with a view to satisfying that attraction. Indeed I'm not sure it would be a good idea even if possible.

Oh, the same applies to men attracted to men, and women attracted to women, as the case may be. <<

Now that they can create sperm, maybe women can do without us now, says Les with tongue in cheek :-)

Incidentally Dianne, here is something you can get your teeth into. Right up your street.
Labour women attack 'laddish' PM from BBC

10 out 10 if you can get rid of that git.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:43 AM

I can't even remember if the person calling himself backwoodsperson was involved in the hitherto-mentioned flatlands quasi-orgy at a gig featuring the well-known "feminist" Alex Campbell. I was certainly not referring to this huffing and puffing caricature specifically, indeed not even thinking of him. Why would I? As someone much further down the thread kindly and painstakingly explained for the benefit of the dim, I am using the term "backwoods" to refer to a sad and retrogressive lack of consciousness prevalent among the uneducated. Transatlantic viewers might substitute "redneck". It is, presumably, a case of caps that fit.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:03 AM

Richard: (serious thread drift alert)

The issue at the time of the "Lincolnshire Orgy With A Campbell" was of women feeling safe (or otherwise) at music venues. I felt it a duty of organisers to try and ensure that women should not be at risk of comment, molestation or worse if attending alone. Some posters considered it their deity-given right to act as inappropriately as they damn well felt like. And, presumably, still do. It's just another aspect of institutionalised oppression.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:24 AM

Diane: No-one should feel unsafe. But no-one should be condemned for trying to pick someone up - so long as they know when to stop.

Les: The production and release of sperm is where some of the instincts come from - but surely over the last 40 years you have heard that women require more entertainment from men than sperm alone can provide.

Backwoodsman:   bit OTT, no? Diane may be infuriating at times (and informative at others) but usually somewhere amongst the storm of gratuitous philological exhibitionism there is a point trying to get out.

Oh - and "If the cap fits - then the event is for fun not procreation".

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM

As seen on a mug

"Real feminists go dutch" - sorry Richard :)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:04 PM

>>Real feminists go dutch<<

What you implying there Emma. My wife is Dutch.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:19 PM

no offence Les

"The modern idea to "go Dutch" no longer carries the stigma of the term's original intentions (C17th)
It is simply a recognized bit of social jargon which allows each party to know the financial arrangements of a date or social outing."

Mijn beste wensen voor uw vrouw
(I hope that means what I think it does!)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:49 PM

>>I felt it a duty of organisers to try and ensure that women should not be at risk of comment, molestation or worse if attending alone. <<

Molestation
Molestation is the sexual exploitation of a child or a woman by an adult for sexual gratification or for profit. Sexual abuse may include:

Fondling
Mutual masturbation
Sodomy
Coitus
Child pornography and child prostitution

Dianne, if it helps, I endorse your comments completely in relation to molestation and worse, and as an organiser try to ensure that all single people (men included) feel relaxed and safe at my venue. The same applies to couples. That is my job.

Comment is difficult, because its one persons word against anothers. However, I would hope that people who come to my venue, would feel comfortable enough to seek me out, if they were upset for any reason. What action I took would depend on the seriousness of the situation.

We have a lady in the village who comes on her own, and we make sure she is escorted back home safely, by a person who is trusted.

However, what I can't be held responsible for, is if the offended person does not come to me or a responsible lady if preferred.

In the 8 years, I have never had one complaint for this sort of behaviour. We have a lovely trustworthy group of people who come to our venue. We normally get 60 to 100 people each time.

The only times I have had to deal with people is when they have had too much to drink and are getting loud and spoiling the show. Fortunately that is so so infrequent, maybe about 6 times in 8 years.

I would like to think that all other organisers behave in the same responsible manner. There is always bound to be one bad apple in the crate, but hopefully that is very rare.

If you have had a bad experience then I am sorry to hear that, but please don't assume that all men are the same.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:56 PM

"the indisputable facts that Vin Garbutt does included oppressive and anti-feminist material" - a highly disputable claim. Here's a song of his that I suspect might be categorised in this way by some people - Lynda.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:57 PM

No Problem Emma :-)

Going Dutch is a great idea with groups of people. When I lived in Holland, I thought it was great, that a group of you could go into a cafe and the bartender kept a tab behind the bar and at the end of the night the group split the bill equally.

What a shame that couldn't work in the UK.

Oh your dutch comment means "I hope your wife has it off with lots of men"

Oh no it doesn't :-)

It means "My best wishes to your wife"

Goed gedaan Emma which means Well done Emma. :-)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:02 PM

Further thread drift

It's not about me nor is it about your 8-year-old venue. Alex Campbell who was implicated in said incident died in the mid-80s. It's about blokes being blokish, hunting in predatory packs, and the inexplicable, inexcusable coterie of women who apparently consider this OK and even welcome it.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:07 PM

Actually, it's the women who hunt in predatory packs these days. Sorry to disappoint you, Sweetums.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:13 PM

Well, there you have it. An admission of demeaning, undignified behaviour from the sea-horse's mouth.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:17 PM

>>It's about blokes being blokish, hunting in predatory packs, and the inexplicable, inexcusable coterie of women who apparently consider this OK and even welcome it.<<

But you seem to imply in most of your posts, that all men are like that. We most definately are not, and that goes for the men you have insulted over time. It is that part of your make up that I find insulting and unacceptable from you Dianne.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:28 PM

entirely off topic

I imply no such thing. I recommend a course in literacy and comprehension. Someone way down the thread said that when someone fails to understand the written word it may not have been expressed adequately. I put it to you that they probably have not read it in context and jump to their own preconceived and stereotypical conclusions.

Men I have "insulted" in this kind of discussion are those who openly boast about, indeed glory in, their loutish, blokish behaviour and attitudes.

End of.
Final IAFWAFIAWMWQ.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Weasel
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:40 PM

IAFWAFIAWMWQ

Alright, I know I'm obviously thick but would somebody clever like to tell me what the above is supposed to mean (so that I can follow this thread)

Cheers,

Weasel (who welcomes women hunting in packs - could somebody give them my address)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:44 PM

Get a life Dianne.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:49 PM

Who is supposed to be the "wise man" in this particular context?

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:12 PM

Such hallucination. Such misplaced arrogance.

I have been addressing the topic all along, not a backwoodsperson.
Who's the "wise man"?
Me, obviously.
But gone. To a venue with intelligent, multi-gendered musicians.
Somebody tell that weasel how to use a search engine . . .

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Weasel
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:35 PM

Ah, thank you. (It not being a word, and it being referenced as an "Ian Anderson expression" acronym I never thought it would appear in a search)

Anyway, back to watching the fight!

Cheers,

Weasel

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:39 PM

IAFWAFIAWMWQ

In A Fight With a Fool It's A Wise Man Who Quits....or some other highly condescending fRoots claptrap...such as ARSS...Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriters.....as opposed to STARSS..Superbly Talented Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriters. You see? It's all in the way you put the acronym together, insulting, patronising and demeaning, or a little uplifting.


"Well, there you have it. An admission of demeaning, undignified behaviour from the sea-horse's mouth."

Nope, I've never seen men 'hunting in packs' like you claim to have, Diane, but I have seen women doing that, dressed like tarts, sexually harrassing the lads, by calling them names, being derogatory..and you know what, no-one touches them for it...and most of the lads just smile or ignore it.

Of course, if the men wolf whistled at the lasses, calling them some equally demeaning names, or spoke to them in the same sexual way as the women now do to the men, well, they'd be arrested for sexual harrassment in minutes, having been reported for it by humourless, controlling women who think that they have the right to say and do anything, 'because I'm a woman' whilst men have no rights at all. Women also seem to think they have the right to dress however they want and if a man DARES to look at them slightly askew, or with his eyes crossed, gee but they make him suffer for it!

Girl Power? Do me a favour. Total Female Irresponsibility, more like.

Abuse of men is as bad as abuse of women....and feminists should be tackling that, but of course, they're not. There were a lot of feminists who, imo, wanted ALL men tarred with the same brush....and if men are now beginning to stand up and shout out about it, shout out about being second class citizens, well good for them, because it's WAY overdue!

I tell you what else feminism has done, imo. It's opened the door on pornography. As a backlash to the men haters you've had some men who have been determined to ensure that women ARE still seen as male sex objects, now more than ever, almost to 'get their own back'. A whole generation (maybe two) has been raised with male magazines at the supermarket checkouts, clothes which even yer most swanky prostitute wouldn't have been seen dead in, and little girl's outfits that take your breath away for all the wrong reasons, as an even younger generation is raised to become the next lot of male fantasies for some men. (please note the *some*) And I'm sure it worries Dads as much as it worries Mums.

However, going back to the folk clubs and people chatting each other up...well..I'm afraid that not even you cannot regulate nature.

You cannot stop men loving women's bodies. Most of them are programmed to, Thank God, because it's called The Continuation of the Species. Some men are programmed to love men, just as some women love other women. It's ALL the way nature intended...and no-one should be castigated for being drawn instantly to someone they find attractive.

Stop with your rules and regulations, with your politically correct (correct?) ideas. Relax and let nature take its course, the way it always has done. By all means shout out for equal pay, equal respect, equal rights, but heck, give men a break...

And for every rude, arrogant man who'd try to force himself on a woman, especially in a crowded place, there are probably 10/20/50 men in that room who'd be the first to yank him away, take him outside and 'deal with him' in the age old way that most men have always dealt with other men who abuse women.

Many, many men want to protect women, you know. So try seeing the good for a change, it may bring a smile.


Richard Digence, are you out there..scribbling all this down for you next lot of songs? ;0)

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: glueman
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 04:00 PM

People drawing analogies with What is Folk Threads? This makes your typical What's Folk debate look like A.J.P. Taylor meets Roland Barthes.
Gratuitous grumping even for this teddy bear pit.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:57 PM

"the indisputable facts that Vin Garbutt does included oppressive and anti-feminist material"

I think it's highly disputable. He has a point of view and performs songs about a difficult subject on which there are strong feelings on both sides.   Abortion isn't a man versus women situation, a great many women are pro-life just as a great many men are pro-choice. It's something which affects us all as human beings, albeit in different ways, and one which we should all have an opinion on.

I see nothing wrong in a songwriter expressing his views on this, or any other subject. That's part of what folk music is for. You are of course entitled to disagree with those views.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:08 PM

Well said Howard!

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:19 AM

The topic is not whether Howard Jones (or anyone else) approves or disapproves personally of anyone's contentious material. It is about whether an artist whose repertoire includes such material should be booked for a public platform from which such material may cause offence or distress.

The original case against Richard Digance displaying racist tendencies remains manifestly unproven and there is little point in pursuing it. Some of Vin Garbutt's material is undoubtedly confrontational and causes great offence and distress. It has often been suggested that he be asked not to perform some of it in front of general, unsuspecting audiences, which people may or may not regard as an acceptable compromise. Predative, intimidatory behaviour at venues is a problem for organisers to address, and it is clearly within their interests to do so if they want audiences to return. Even if the music is right-on, women on the wrong end of sexual harassment from those encouraged even in this day and age by backwoods beliefs that it is OK to behave so crassly will be offended and/or scared and not come back.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:08 AM

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of specific artists. As BE has said, the vaguely stated case against Richard Digance has not been substantiated, and Vin Garbutt's views have been discussed at length elsewhere. I will simply say that while he may cause offence and distress to some, there are others who applaud him for expressing an alternative point of view.

It is impossible to dissociate politics from folk song. One of the roles of folk song has always been to express political dissent. The folk revival in both the UK and US was strongly associated with political activism.

The point is that any material which addresses politically sensitive (in the broadest sense) issues, whether from the Left or the Right, is likely to give a degree of distress or offence to those in the audience who hold different views. If you accept that politics has a place in folk music, then you must be prepared to hear views put forward which you may not share.

Subject: RE: Richard Digance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:14 AM

That road has a dangerous end, Howard, for then the artist must also accept that the opposing views may be immediately expressed.

Better, surely, to say that oppression should not be advocated on stages.