BS: How many socialists are there here?

Subject: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:01 PM

Just wondering how much company I have.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:15 PM

Gg- I could buy into most of it, but the last time I saw a Socialist convention on (I think it was C-Span) the guy who won thought Christianity was a really good idea, and described himself as a Baptist.
                        I kind of lost any sense of hope after that!

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

Has anyone actually tried socialism?

How come all the things that could be afforded when our parents and grandparents had nothing (cheap public transport, good libraries and schools, clean water, health care and free public toilets just for instance) have to be sold off for private profit now that everybody can afford more in material terms than our predecessors could have dreamed of?

Ross

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 09:21 PM

Because of one looney on CSPAN they planted so everyone would be able to use that broad black brush to paint all socialists with, you mean?

Did you ever consider something like, oh I don't know, reading the works of well regarded socialist thinkers? Learn the history of socialism in the US, that sort of thing?

Admittedly, it is far easier to just take CNN's word for it...

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM

Yes. And I'm partial to the real thing.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:25 PM

Count me in

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:40 PM

"Did you ever consider something like, oh I don't know, reading the works of well regarded socialist thinkers?"


                   Well, I liked reading Big Bill Haywood, but I don't know how well regarded he was.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

There are several major variations on socialism, so I guess it depends on the kind and degree you espouse.

I think Social Security, the Interstate Highway System, good infrastructure and partly-socialized medicine would be good ideas to preserve and maintain.

I think the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a failure years before Gorbachev decided to cut and run.

There's always a balance between the obligations and freedoms that the individual's energy can be directed toward. INsanity lies in both extremes, I guess.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:55 PM

Don't be foolish, Riginslinger...a great many socialists have also been religious people, in fact some of the greatest socialists of all time have been religious people. Even Jesus appears to me to be preaching a decidedly socialist gospel!!!!!! (regardless of what some of his so-called "followers" are espousing these days on rightwing talk shows) Furthermore, Baptists are not necessarily all drooling idiots, however much you would like them to be. Your usual process of stereotyping people is taking over, that's all. ;-)

Count me in as a strong believer in socialism...in a general sense...although that does not mean that I think everything in a society should fall under the umbrella of socialism! It's not an all or nothing proposition. No, I figure it is best to have about a 50/50 mix of capitalism and socialism in a society.

Socialism is good for providing universal health coverage, universal educational facilities, libraries, museums, a scientific and medical research community, a government (at all levels), a judiciary and legal structure, a military, some large transportation and communications networks, some large energy regulators, a police force, and a number of other things that are there for the whole community and which are, in effect, public services (when used properly). (they are not always used properly)

Capitalism is good for stimulating a huge variety of businesses, large and small, to market various profitable forms of goods and services that people want and/or need. This is also good.

Together the two can work very harmoniously and very well...as they do right NOW in all developed societies...and there is no reason whatsoever to demonize either socialism or capitalism in an all or nothing fashion.

You can have too much of either in a society. You can have too little of either. You can use either inappropriately or destructively. And I could say that about absolutely ANYTHING, couldn't I?

Fanatics and zealots always want all-or-nothing solutions. Sensible people integrate opposites and find ways of harmonizing them to the benefit of all.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:20 PM

Composite four hundred and and ninety one, subsection 5C............I move!

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:28 PM

Why should one bother to get behind a serious anti-war movement when there's the chance for a good socialist reading session in a sublime room of one's own? As for action, I have written many a meaningful check backing the proper sort of people. I prefer the sort of candidates who have no chance of ever getting dragged into the messy little details involving dreary government work or distasteful coaltion building.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:30 PM

Exactly, Amos and LH and others.

I'm not sure a truly pure socialist society is possible, given human evolution. I think that this is demonstrated by the repeated failure of the Utopian Communities of the 19th Century. But no society can ignore the needs of its citizens and long endure.

As G. B. Shaw said, "The more I learn of the moneyed classes the more I understand the reason for the guillotine." Historically, the problem has been that as the rascals were tossed out, new rascals took over.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Padre
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:52 PM

J.F.D. Maurice (1805-1872), an Anglican priest, was the author of 'The Kingdom of Christ' a book which greatly influenced the rise of 'Christian Socialism' in Victorian England. I recommend it.

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 01:39 AM

GG - "I prefer the sort of candidates who have no chance of ever getting dragged into the messy little details involving dreary government work"

Me too. That's why I'm voting for Chongo this time. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:34 AM

Have been an active socialist for much of my adult life.The more I see of the neo liberal agenda,the on going wars for oil and the racismbeing pushed by those in power the more I agree with that old victorian gentleman who wrote that workers of the world had nothing to lose but their chains.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:43 AM

I've always liked his line about "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." Tho' someone else may have said it first.

Also that God may have been the first socialist because He created everyone equal.

   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:27 AM

It is sometimes worth considering that George Moore, the great Irish novelist, referred to Jesus at 'the pale socialist of Galilee' - I don't think it was intended completely as a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 05:31 AM

Guest, much as I admire your understanding of the current political situation, your scathing posts on this forum and taking into account that I would like you to have my babies, I must disagree with your contention that "Socialism" is the answer to America and the worlds problems.
In my youth I was an extreme socialist, but over the intervening years I have come to realise that "Socialism" always becomes just another tool in the rulers armoury.

If we are to have a sustainable world, Capitalism must be removed lock stock and barrel. In the short term this would be traumatic for the tiny part of the human race which inhabits planet earth at the moment, but in my opinion is the only hope for humanity's survival.
I hate Capitalism and how it bebases people, more than anything else in this world, but still remain objective enough to realise that obliging people to sacrifice their short lives on this planet working for "Monopoly money", destroying our precious environment, all for the so called "common good" is lunacy.
There is no short term fix to the problems that humanity has created,
but understanding that we have a problem at all would be a step in the right direction....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:19 AM

Yes Little Hawk, I have, for a very long time had no doubt in my mind that Jesus preached socialism. I believe Ewan MacColl for one was of a similar opinion:

Ballad of the Carpenter

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 07:28 AM

I like to see myself as a socialist. I hope I will never be a doctrinaire one though. Humans will always need to express themselves as part of a community. To enable this, a degree of socialist provision is necessary - for the reasons Little Hawk gave. On the other hand, a degree of personal, individual expression will always be necessary too - and that is served by a degree of capitalism, free will or whatever. Absolute systems of left or right achieve the same result, which is to prevent humans from functioning properly either as individuals or as part of society. In my view, the needs of the few are currently impinging too much on the needs of the many. That is why I call myself a socialist. A certain degree of socialist and capitalist thinking is present in most people. A system of government, which totally excludes the other, is a recipe for disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:02 AM

I identify myself politically as a libertarian with some socialist overtones.

When I am told that that's inherently contradictory, I say, well, so is the society we live in...

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:07 AM

We USED to have a Major Political Party in U K that was Socialist - But all mention of Socialism was dropped in the 1997 manifesto .
Is there still ANY hope ??

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:30 AM

LH, you may not be talking to the Guest Guest you think you are in this thread.

akenaton, not to worry. I remain unaligned in terms of party affiliations, and the historic flaws of American socialism (too lengthy an analytical treatise for here, anyway) too glaring for it to be accepted broadly enough to be practical.

But in the wake of decades of government deregulation from both major parties in the US has wreaked havoc with our world, and not just within the confines of the US border.

We do have a Democratic Socialist local here in MN, with which I am not affiliated, but occassionally participate in sponsored events, keep abreast of their projects, etc.

I began wondering as I watched the Cold War comedy of Billy Wilder's "One, Two, Three" last night on TV. The film's politics du jour have not aged gracefully, and it now seems anachronistic in restropect, even though I'm sure it wasn't for it's time.

Which got me thinking how anachronistic socialism seems to most sheep in this obscene era of consumer capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:36 AM

Ross, plenty have tried, no one has come even close to succeeding!
Quite appart from the USSR and Peoples Republic of China etc, every utopian experiment based on Socialist ideas has failed, largely through internal politics and conflicts.
Even Robert Owen's (the originator of the term "socialist") ideal communities at New Lanark and later communities, particularly New Harmony in the US, failed to become self supporting largely on these counts.
It is interesting of course to consider that these early experiments were all funded by monies gathered from capitalist activities.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: goatfell
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:39 AM

not many in Britian, certainly none in the Labour party because they don't believe in it anymore, they are the tories in a different colour that's all, I vote for the SNP and they are more socialists than the Labour/tory party will ever be.

I can't want for the revolution to happen

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM

I suppose my central point remains. That is of course that you are the sheep, and I am your anonymous shepherd.   Now back to televised cinema.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 08:57 AM

I shouldn't post before I've had tea.

I do believe some form of socialist model will ultimately be adopted on a global scale, if for no other reason than to manage and sustain global resources for the future. Right now, those "in charge" of our global resources aren't exactly doing such a bang up job of it.

There are good examples of practical applications of moderate forms of socialism that have worked, just not all in one country at one time. There have been successes in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Cuba, Venezuela, just to name a few. In the wake of the Sandinista revolution, good progress was being made on several fronts before the US led contra war destroyed the momentum. The US found the Sandinistas particularly threatening because they were attempting to do a mixed sort of economy, combining both socialist and moderate capitalist run industries.

As I said elsewhere, I don't hold out much hope that the US will get beyond this current stage of corruption. If the US economy implodes after all these years of deregulation and banditry, we are done as a global power. And I think the US is far closer to that point than most think is even possible (in the "It Can't Happen Here" sort of vein).

I come from a part of the US where socialism is very much a part of the historic political fabric. Not MN as much as North Dakota and Wisconsin, but we have a pretty solid history of socialist and progressive movements here too. So I'm always somewhat taken aback when people are shocked, dismayed, and derisive of that history, just because they are so ignorant of the history and fearful that they might be viewed as crazy (see Rigs response) if they claim any of that as their political pedigree, especially here in the US in this dark era of duopoly rule.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:03 AM

I was once and not so long ago; but socialism as a way of running society had proven to be a failure. Even Social Democracy was in favour of capitalism. Socialism proved to be a disaster and is almost dead in the water now. I am more of a liberal. However, socialised medicine is a good thing and I believe in trade unions and union representation on the board of all public limited companies.

Those who still advocate socialism are usually ageing baby boomers who were radicalised in '68 and haven't realsied that the Party [deliberate play on words, here] is over. They remind me of when I was a youth and all these crusty old Tories bewailing how this country was going to the dogs since the loss of the Empire. These people have all shaken off the mortal coil and gone to the great British empire in the school. Nowadays, instead, you have all these old socialists bewailing the 'sell out' of their generation and still continue to preach and believe in socialism. Ken Loach, John Pilger, Tony Benn, etc, and countless others, many who find a sympathetic refuge in Mudcat. Their time is gone, but they speak from the heart to a increasingly decreasing circle and are laughed at by those outside the circle and to whom they would dearly love to convice ie the young.

I shall now duck for cover as the bile rains in on my head.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:22 AM

Last time I checked, I thought I was. But I have a cleaner, shop for food at Mark's and Spencer and my daughter is at a selective (state) school - so I'm probably hoisted by my own petard.

I still believe in socialised education (including higher education)and medicine, and in re-distribution of wealth through taxation, and would happily pay higher taxes to support all of these things...

So you tell me: am I a socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:34 AM

It is a simplistic sort of labeling, isn't it Ruth? It doesn't really reflect our contemporary values anymore, except maybe the few to whom Rockin' Reeler refers. I'm not quite so derisive of the elders as all that, and I don't think the current, upcoming generation is either, at least in the States. If anything, many young people seem to be searching for just those sorts of histories without the demonization the education system and mainstream society puts upon the leftist labels.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:38 AM

Rather than tossing about labels, it might be more useful some time to analyse society, the economy, politics. Putting it like that is itself a liberalt take on these matters


However, that all sounds like a different thread.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:53 AM

Not necessarily, autolycus. Give it your best shot.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

A number of poster have stated that we require a degree of socialism and capitalism to effect a balance.
This is pish!!
True socialism is the desire to construct a workable caring community of our species as most of the higher mammals do.

Capitalism is a virulent ideology based on the exploitation of the many by the few.
Progress will never be made until this ideology has bee properly explained to all and destroyed forever..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 09:57 AM

...present...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM

I don't know akenaton. I think the hybrid models could be used transitionally to get us to where we will eventually have to go, based upon the realities of resource scarcities.

And, the socialist model will have to be as ideology free as we can make it, in order for it to have staying power.

One reason why I have never been able to climb onboard with the party lines, is that moralistic attitude rooted in moralistic ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM

Interestingly, in the UK, the philanthopy of the 18th and 19th centuries that improved workers' conditions and began the educational revolution that led to the foundation of the ideals of Socialism, were largely assisted by Capitalists putting wealth created from capitalist activities into "good works."

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:14 AM

Yes, and when one owns the systems by which capital is produced, one can afford to do good works. Or not. Which is why capital needs to be redistributed; generation of it regulated, monitored, and policied, and; new models created to deal with the brave new world we are facing when the oil and gas that fuels the world's economies, runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:16 AM

Oh--and let's not forget the scarcity of water which already exists in most places in the world, not just in pockets here and there--and how much water the generation of centralized energy and power generation uses.

Making nukes so not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:23 AM

The credo that "Thou shall not rip off your fellow human (or your environment)" does has some basic appeal to me.

However, the thought of gathering around to discuss how to do that, the heavy reading and the thinking, encourages me to begin working on my taxes today.

I'll check back and see what you have all come up with.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

Sapper82, I think the model you refer to might be best called 'crumbs from the rich man's table'. Of course the flaw is: 'assuming the rich man lets them fall'.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:44 AM

"Interestingly, in the UK, the philanthopy of the 18th and 19th centuries that improved workers' conditions and began the educational revolution that led to the foundation of the ideals of Socialism, were largely assisted by Capitalists putting wealth created from capitalist activities into "good works." "

Ah, but how did the capitalists get the money in the first place? That's right, by screwing the workers - long hours, child labour, unsafe working conditions - and then their 'charity' was riddled with conditions such as attending church, not drinking, do what your betters tell you. A quick dip into the works of Dickens will show you what things were really like.

If you're looking for true socilist ideals go back to the 1640s. Read what Lilburne, Overton, Walwyn, Winstanley etc. wrote. The practical application of thse priciples was, of course, soon stamped on the by those who owned the land and, therefore, had the power - a commonwealth in name only.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 10:56 AM

And it should come as no surprise that as we have seen the global explosion of consumer capitalism and the exploitation of global resources by the global corporate plutocracies, that we have also seen an explosion in human slavery, human trafficking, child exploitation as laborers, prostitutes and soldiers.

The one is directly linked to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:02 AM

Oops! Anonymous guest above was me.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:39 AM

There WILL be a reckoning, perhaps sooner rather than later. With rice becoming unavailable and water becoming scarce, with wheat flour and the flours from other grains becoming unaffordable, oh yes...there will be a reckoning. It can be stalled off, perhaps, but not avoided. Malthus is still out there, nodding, saying, "I told you so."

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:48 AM

Water isn't "becoming" scarce. It is scarce, and has been for the better part of 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 11:55 AM

Which is one of the main reasons why we have to kill the demon that is global agribusiness, global forestry, and the global energy monsters that are oil, gas, and nukes.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 02:52 PM

I consider myself to be a socialist but regret that those polititians who claim to be bear no relation to my concept of socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

And it should come as no surprise that as we have seen the global explosion of consumer capitalism and the exploitation of global resources by the global corporate plutocracies, that we have also seen an explosion in human slavery, human trafficking, child exploitation as laborers, prostitutes and soldiers.

It should be noted that there have been no greater spoilers of the land, exploiters of labor, and violators of basic human rights than the USSR and China, both socialist states. While I won't deny that there are global corporate abuses, socialism is not the solution. It is a basic suppressor of individual innovation and entrepeneurship, eliminating many of the basic motives that lead to technological advancement. Should capitalism be allowed unfettered and unchecked operation? Absolutely not. But government has never been shown to be more efficient than business in the regulation and control of wealth. T Roosevelt had it right, though. Corporate monopoly is the greatest threat to a free capitalist society when not held in check by an aggressive central government. We are now reaping the rewards of the last years of failure to correct those and other abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

From: Lonesome EJ - PM
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM
Corporate monopoly is the greatest threat to a free capitalist society when not held in check by an aggressive central government.

And business spends a lot of its energy trying to get the government off its back and persuading others to think the same way.

Shurely shome mishtake. Ed

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How many socialists are there here?
From: Cats
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

Sorry wee little drummer but your composite does not comply with standing orders......

count Jon and I in as socialists. Check out the old Liberal party. We still have them here in Cornwall. They have never moved on their politics and are now about as far left wing as you can get in this country!