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BS: why do we need religion
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BS: why do we need religion |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM "This is not subject to proof, of course, but to my mind, is never the less true." the "to my mind" part is a direct violation of the rule that says "You cannot just say "you pick your (rules) and I'll pick mine" , Amos, as well as points 2), 3), 4), and 5 above. (That rule, by the way, is not just some arbitrary thing, ol' Bill decided to make up so he could harass free-thinkers....it is a distillation of the essentials of logic, scientific method (and probably, of Roberts Rules of Order, too ;>) You USE poetry to DEFEND poetry as a way of getting around my claim that poetry, by itself, is not a valid substitute for proof. Poetry certainly does provide illuminating metaphor and linguistic entry into ways of re-evaluating experience, but I'm not sure it gives us 'knowing', unless we allow a pretty ambiguous, subjective and vague definition of 'knowing'. *I* use poetry...I like poetry...I can move into a mode where I need poetry to 'flavor' my feelings and capture a mood--but poetry is an attempt to reflect reality, not an independent piece OF reality. Them apples gots a few rotten spots, Amos......*grin* I'll nibble on 'em, but I won't bite with my eyes closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: katlaughing Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:27 PM BillD, I thought the poetry thing was lame, too (sorry, Amos) but, you said, but poetry is an attempt to reflect reality, not an independent piece OF reality. Like the eternal question of "what is folk music" I would ask you "what IS reality?" (Feel free to use both hands in reply:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM ah, kat, I would wear all (ummm...10, at the moment) fingers to nubbins trying to answer what philosophers and physicists and poets have struggled with for thousands of years! Any simple answer is open subjective interpretation, and any complex answer is open to detailed dissection by folks with VERY sharp knives! I could say "reality is what we all experience in the same way" sound good? But what about color blindness? What about dreams? are they 'real', even though yours are very different from mine? I could say "reality is what we experience" ...and all those who claim to have 'experienced' ghosts or OOB flights or auras will claim me as one of theirs! *shudder* "Reality" is a word...it is useful in context among people who agree to use it in a consistent way for the purposes of communicating and not spending all their time arguing....but like 'folk', you will never get a consensus. There are those who want to say 'folk' is "anything done by 'folks'", and then imagine they have said something! I prefer to use a working, inductive definition that can be useful without being so broad as to include anything the claimant feels strongly about.... Thus, I treat attempts to subsume personal feelings and subjective (those which are by definition untestable)theories under very broad notions of 'reality' as rhetorical manipulation. (translation: my hobby is shooting down wild claims and asking folks to not implicitly suggest that their pet theory really 'ought' to be mine also) |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: katlaughing Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:18 PM Well, my tongue was in my cheek when I asked, but you have done well, Billdarlin'...in a reasoned and not so longish reply. (I didn't go in to it as I knew it cold go on forever, too!**bG**) Thanks! An interesting side discussion, though, could be the mass consciousness and the effect Bush's fearmongering has had on it manifesting all manner of paranoia, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM The one thing I know, Bill, is that I don't know! ;-) I just live and learn as best I can. I'm not debating or arguing, just discussing things that interest me. When they interest me a lot, I get passionate about it. My supposition is that a mind builds a body one cell at a time from pure energy, using a high level of organized and purposeful biological intelligence. It's also possible that a mind in quite a confused state could build a body in a sort of unaware way through the same biological method. The biological structures are there to do it, obviously. Science agrees on that. In the same way, an assembly line in an auto factory is there, along with tools, paint, etc...to build a car...but nothing whatsoever will happen until a mind makes to decision to get the process rolling, right? A number of minds have to be there to monitor and supervise the process. I think everything works that way, by intelligence...mind decides, natural laws provide, and something is accomplished. I might be wrong. There is no way for me to set up a lab experiment confirming or denying my suppositions. At least, not that I know of... But then, like I said, the one thing I know is that I don't know. And just about nobody else does either. The commonest error people make is to think they DO know a lot when in fact they know precious little about reality. They just accumulate available facts. The facts they accumulate make up what amounts to a few grains of sand on a very, very long beach, in my opinion. But it's just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Amos Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:24 PM I suggest you missed the point, Bill. Poetry violates the rules of grammar, the norms of language, and the predispositions of normal reading. By breaking those rules, it bypassed the filtering machinery so often used to stand between the self and immediate apperception. There was nothing lame about it. (Sorry, kat.) There is absolutely no logic in comparing a woman to a summer's day. But it works anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: GUEST,Jdozs Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM yes dianavan hope is not dependant upon belief in an afterlife. But an afterlife is dependant upon hope. I'm not sure if you read my post in full. Maybe you were torn by the 150 posts above it or maybe I did not understand the topic. I do not feel the need of religion in my life. However others do. I was trying to explain why I thought people needed religion. Seeing as I too walked that life of god and religion I wanted to express my thoughts just as you did. You are correct any cult would serve the same purpose I however do not belong to any cult nor any religion for that matter. And people do need something to blame whether it is god when a family member dies or god when the weather is great. I'm a realist I see things for what they are. And the way I see it is religion fills a void, it allows those who do not wish to own up to there choices someone to blame. It gives peace of mind to the questions they can not answer. Is it wrong? no it is not. at least not for those who believe in it. My grandmother once told me if you follow a life of god and die and find out it wasn't true what harm did it cause in living that life. None absolutely none. This is a topic that has been discussed for many years. The answers are out there. The truth is right in front of you. The wisdom to understand it however is not always within you. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm Check out the link it has some very good points. But atheism is turning into a cult also. I enjoy discussing, debating, and arguing these topics but I understand at the end of it all it still comes down to choice and I can not make your choices for you. It's been fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: GUEST, Ebbie Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM I keep looking at the title of this thread: Why do we need religion. It's easy to change the words- and totally change the meanings: 'Do we need religion?' 'Why we need religion'. 'We need religion.' 'Why religion?' It occurs to me that only one of those alternate titles actually seeks information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Peace Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:57 PM IMO, we need religion for two reasons: 1) Give God something to ignore 2) Give religious 'leaders' something to do |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:02 PM LOL! Yay! Best comments yet, Peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:28 PM Bill, this occurs to me. Maybe you have such a strong instinct for "shooting down wild claims", because you yourself made a lot of wild claims in some other lifetime! You may have been a snake oil salesman or a person who conducted seances for big bucks and brought "messages" to people from their dear departed grandmothers, while tapping the bottom of the table with your boot! Maybe your own past karma is what is causing you to react so much to that sort of stuff. Just one among numerous possible theories. ;-) It wouldn't be the first time, for instance, that a former drunk has come back in the next life as a moral campaigner against alcoholism...or any number of other such examples. That's duality for you. The thing people most can't stand is their own glaring past errors, demonstrated by others. (that's more spiritual theorizing...nothing more) (I'm not saying I know.) I find it fun to discuss such things, just in order to raise the possibility and give it some thought. Who are we here to work on and improve? Others or ourselves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Amos Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:53 PM Surely the hand of the Almighty is quite capable of making stuff to ignore? Hey, even I can do that by the bucketful, and I have no pretensions to godhead. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:03 PM I have an old friend who is probably quite close to his time of death. He just called me on the phone to tell me that he had a heart attack, I think it was a day or two ago. He's at home now. The Doctors feel he has not long to live (but maybe as long 6 weeks, they said). I have seen this coming for quite some time now. Now here's the thing. He had an experience during that heart attack: what is called a "near death" experience. He found himself out of the body, inside a white room. In that room was every person he has ever loved or truly cared about...and lost...in this life. He said that they were not physical people, they were spiritual presences, like bodies of light. He said that he also was not a body anymore, but a living presence of energy or light. He could easily recognize everyone, although they were not in physical form. They spoke to him. They all told him that they love him, that life is eternal, that he will never die, that he will be with them when he leaves the body. This guy is not going to be here long. I know he's telling me the truth. He's got nothing left here to be putting on a show for. He has seen the same "white room" before, when he nearly died of a drug overdose several decades ago. He says the only difference this time was, there were some new people in the room who weren't there the first time. They hadn't died yet. This my oldest friend in this town. I have to think about spending some time near him while I still can. I'll be doing that. We have stuff to talk about. He says he is not afraid of death now, not in the least, because he knows that what he really is will not die. But he's suffering a lot of physical pain in the meantime. We're all going to have to deal with this one day. I consider it a privilege to have known this man, and I will know him when I'm no longer "here". Depend on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: katlaughing Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:01 PM LH, that is beautiful...I wish you and your friend moments of peace and memories...thanks for sharing it with us. It is a true friend who can understand and be there for someone when they are dying. I also got a chuckle when reading your possibilities for BillD's past lives.**bg** Nice balance there between the two. BTW, a Rosicrucian, first and foremost, is a walking question mark. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Ebbie Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:31 PM As I age, I frequently muse on the 'Great Mystery'. There are so many things to ponder. 'We' like to say that we'll "meet again" but what do we really mean? Surely not the child left behind when his young mother died and who is now 90 years old? Surely not one's first love when other loves have come and gone? Surely not the baby that died when we were 15 years old and alone? Surely not the dear friend I lost to death when we were 19 years old and I am now 80? If there is anything to the concept of life after death, it must be that only pure all-embracing Spirit survives. For that to be meaningful it seems to me that each Spirit must have undergone many incarnations, and that each Spirit treasures the many lives they have had together. I doubt that my hypothetical husband is 'waiting for me there', when I've had other dearly loved husbands since. I doubt that my young mother will enfold this old woman in her arms, welcoming her baby home. I still love Gospel songs though! |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:46 PM such a plethora of 'maybes' there, Little Hawk.. :>0 Maybe in a former life I was sitting in the Lyceum, baiting Socrates about his 'method'....but maybe not. you say "I find it fun to discuss such things, just in order to raise the possibility and give it some thought." ....yep, it is a useful and traditional exercise in order to practice thinking and explore our shared experiences. I do it myself about some things. What I often see, however, is the line being crossed bewteen "what if X were the case?", to "that sounds so good and hangs together internally, that I bet it is probably true!" It is not too hard to construct an internally consistent theory, much as David Hume did with his very 'solipsistic' view of experience. (I can't prove that anything exists outside my own mind)...but there is little practical application for such a theory. You can't get a court to ignore your crimes by claiming that 'there really isn't any 'bank' that can BE robbed. At their worse, 'what ifs' can be dangerous and detrimental. Small children, who believe things easily, can be seriously traumatized by scary stories and lies. Religious cults based on the fantasies of charismatic, but disturbed, leaders can bring misery to many people. There is a long, convoluted continuum between harmless, creative speculation and dangerous, inaccurate distortion of reason for dishonest purposes, and obviously, there is no clear 'line in the sand' where it shifts from bad to good. Just as in defining 'folk', there are many things to consider when evaluating a claim or idea. As you may have possibly noted in passing, (*VERY big grin*), one of my favorite targets is careless use of language and lack of reasonable disclaimers when promoting a less-than-obvious notion. I do this because of the POWER of words, written or spoken, to influence receptive minds; and a well-tuned and emotionally presented FALSE idea can win support easier than a careful, logical, BORING explanation of the alternatives! Is it worth my time?...well, it got things like: "(that's more spiritual theorizing...nothing more) (I'm not saying I know.)" included in one post! A huge step...*smile* You know what the situation is: in a forum like this, we have folks steeped in Astrology, Religion, Para-normal abilities, Witchcraft, Alien Encounters, theories of alternate Universes, theories of multiple levels of THIS Universe, Mythology, ...and who knows, maybe Phrenology, Tarot, tea-leaves and sheep entrails too! Since all those things have been important parts of our history as humans, I have no problem with those who wish to explain why they are intrigued by such ideas, but when their statements assume the truth of the notions, my alarm bells go off! ( yeah, we have a few contributors who really can't deal with this discussion and who I seldom bother to talk to...this usually means religious fundamentalists who simply have no idea how to debate their beliefs....but CAN include those who just as vehemently and carelessly deride and ridicule a belief because of some emotional baggage... Amos...if you are reading way down here, I don't think I did 'miss the point'...I see what you are trying to convey about the power of poetry (in its various forms) to expand the mind and help us express things that proper grammar often limits...but....(you knew there'd be a 'but', huh?)...but, your sentence: "By breaking those rules, it bypassed the filtering machinery so often used to stand between the self and immediate apperception." breaks what *I* consider to be rules by (very long pause here, as I sit and stare at the screen and try to express my concern..)....let's try this....by Kant used language like "pure apperception", and it does have cognative relevance in some contexts, but he was purty durn strict about his usage. [I ain't too sure whether my 'self' (as differentiated from 'me') CAN 'immediately apperceive' anything if that means something different from 'experience'.] Husserl used the idea of an 'eidetic reduction' to explain certain theoretical philosophical processes, but no one ever seriously suggested that we could go about doing eidetic reductions, as if it were just a matter of practice, like Yoga breath control. well...as usual, more answer than I planned, or than anyone probably wanted. .....but I typed it, and I'm jolly well gonna hit the damn submit button before I lose it all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:57 PM (several posts while I cogitated, I see) Little Hawk....I too, have NO doubt your friend was totally honest about his experience. No matter what it means ultimately, it has personal meaning for him, and I hope sincerely that the images involved make whatever time he has left easier. Kat...you be careful about my possible past lives! I shudder to think of the ramifications if it turns out I used to teach rhetoric to Little Hawk! |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Amos Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM In my father's house are many mansions, one spiritualist. Beautifully told story, LH! I think that postulating to meet someone again is like postulating anything -- sometimes you make it happen just that way and other times it gets put on hold while other things unfold. Sometimes it springs on you like a quail in a back-country snowdrift, wham, and you're all caught off guard and fluttering like a baby. It is a question of what and "how much" you are being at the time you create that postulate; anyone has experienced being more full themselves at some times than others. The difference in energy and awareness and sensitivity can shift wildly and with those thing, so also the power of any given decision made. Just as you cannot solve a problem at the same energy level at which it was created, you tend to be more swept up by decisions made at energy levels higher than you presently operate at; this is why some people have problems deciding on which fork to use, while others can comfortably weigh much bigger problems, like which continent to use. Like nested, cascading shells of diminishing being, the things we leave unhandled and unfaced tend to haul us into smaller scopes of existence, until all we have to reckon with is the body and a small array of very solid thoughts about things to buy. The reverse is also true -- the more you face squarely and openly, the freer you are. Anyway, ya never know when you're gonna meet someone you have unfinished business with, for better or for worse! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Ebbie Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:10 PM I agree with you, Amos. Fresh grief demands more certainty than does later reflection. But I do love examining my biases and hidebound beliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:55 PM It really does seem to come down to wishful thinking. I don't mean that facetiously. All of us do it, but from the cover of the many dogmas that are our various religions. Logically, we are wasting so much of our finite time and energy on things that are, to me, unknowable. I'll just wait and see---or not. Love to all, Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM Amos, I think I object to your comment "Poetry violates the rules of grammar, the norms of language, and the predispositions of normal reading." Under some circumstances, it can stretch the norms, but I fail to see how it violates rules of grammer. Perhaps you need to look for a better class of poetry... |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:34 PM (I think he means 'sometimes' violates 'standard' grammar to make its point..) |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: freda underhill Date: 16 Sep 05 - 11:52 PM that account of your friend's experience was wonderful, Little Hawk. my sister always dismisses anything like this as a "psychosis" brought on by the body's "chemicals". i wish my body would produce a few chemicals like these.. freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Sep 05 - 08:48 AM The chemicals are the after-effect of the consciousness, not its cause, in my opinion. ;-) For example: You get angry about something, and your body immediately starts producing adrenalin, etc...chemical responses TO the anger. The adrenalin did not cause the anger, the anger caused the adrenalin to be released into your system, providing enhanced "fight or flight" capabilities to the physical body. Note that this puts YOU in charge of your life, rather than making you a passive victim at the effect of "chemicals" or some other uncontrollable factor, and that's important! If you can control your consciousness, then your whole life becomes empowered and greatly blessed. If you can't control your consciousness, then you're just a pawn of various outer conditions. I know which approach sounds good to me. Chemicals? Bah! Humbug! ;-) I have spent some good time with my friend, and he's feeling fairly serene, I'd say. He just wants to complete a few things here before he goes, and I'm helping with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Bill D Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:06 AM good for you, Little Hawk.... I hope I will have some lead time when I am ready to go, and I KNOW I will have loose ends to be tied up. I hope I have a friend or two to help like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: Amos Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:38 AM BB: As a violators of grammar in poetry yourself I am surprised you should make such an objection; perhaps thou dost protest too much? As for a better class of poetry, there's always that indeed. You will find plenty of liberties taken with grammar in excellent poetry, from the (just for example) Kiplingesque pounding of the "Bells, bells, bells, bells, bells!" to the fanciful inversions of ee cummings and the uproar of Alan Ginsberg. Grammar is a framework readily bust on behalf of some transcendent communication. My point, then and now, is that good poetry breaks the mold of entrammeling logic in order to offer some leakage into a freer plane of being. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: John Hardly Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM [best homer simpson voice] m-m-m-m-m-m chem-i-cals [/best homer simpson voice] |
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Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion From: John Hardly Date: 17 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM Are you itchin' for relitchin'? |
