A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 12:33 PM

"The trouble with the folk scene that there are far too many people who think that they have a god-given right to make a living from it."

As a friend of mne is wont to say,"another awards show with all the usual suspects in attendance."

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:10 PM

I think Al has a good point,there are many very good performers,who dont get the recognition they deserve.
some of these, are songwriters ,some are performers of traditional material/roots material .,some are instrumentalists
they are [imo]what makes the folkscene interesting,they are often slightly off beat or anti establishment,and not what the folk music industry,appears[imo] to want to promote.
This is not intended as a criticism of this years winners,I am sure they are very competent/good in their own way,but they are only the best[ in the subjective opinion of the judges,like all competetions]of those that the judges are aware of, or wish to consider,or promote ,
so how seriously should these awards be taken.
I dont think they should be taken too seriously.
in my opinion the folkscene has become too much like the popular music business,I think and hope the quest for commercialisng folk music is doomed,because unfortunately in the attempt to popularise it,its very essence can become changed,
so I generally ignore these awards,and carry on listening to source musicians,like Roscoe Holcomb,Bobby Casey,Phil Tanner .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:59 PM

Just been listening to Chris Wood's "Trespasser" (again).

Stunning. The superb 13 minute epic "England in Ribbons" is hardly bland, identikit Radio Two fare...

The usual suspects? My arse!

A treat: Chris on Youtube doing Come Down Jehovah

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3Ow4uxRuIU&feature=related This is very good too,Martin Simpson

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Reinhard
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

I grew up with pop music and of course was heavily influenced by charts, music press etc. At the end of my teenage years I was lucky to learn of electric folk and grew from it to more and more traditional music. I still listen to the "subjective opinion of the judges, like all competitions", but they no longer dictate what I have to like. I rather see them as suggestions to listen to exciting musicians that I never heard of before (Tom McConville) or that I'm not familiar with (Chris Wood). Of course there may be music that doesn't appeal to me; and the competitions won't cause me to drop those musicians that I like but who are not the current fad. But that is just having one's own opinion.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

"I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit, or that they MUST book someone, or being generally abused and harangued, or seeing some performers being repeatedly obnoxious about other performers and insisting that only the bands that they like are any good. This approach may well do yourself and the bands you champion more harm than good, because the business isn't just about what you put on stage, it's about people that are easy and affable to work with. Given the huge weight of very talented people who ask me for gigs, for example, am I likely to book someone who I think is going to be a difficult, miserable git? Well - would you?

Just something to think about."



Well, I thought about it, and it took me back to that somewhat now infamous time on the BBC board, when the author of those very words above stated she'd rather stick pins in her eyes than listen to the music of Show of Hands, without one single thought for the musicians involved, or for the somewhat abusive message that was being put out to others about their music.

>"I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit..."<

Absolutely. And that's why I've been standing up for all the musicians whose music I love, for years and years now, despite being told my taste is 'shit' by some of the very people in here who are criticising Al for it.

Back to Hypocrites R Us, I guess.


I'm also in agreement with Al.

Good luck to all who won their Awards this year, and for all the other years too. This argument is *nothing* to do with their talent, skills or anything else. It is to do with the way the whole system is run.

When I first found Folk Music, BOY! was I excited!! Then, I found they had a Folk Awards! And I got even MORE excited! I sang it's praises to the rooftops, I watched it on BBC4, wrote about it on the BBC board, etc..etc..etc..

Then, I started to notice something over the years..and that was how the same artists kept getting nominated year, after year, after year.....Not only that, but often, the same people kept on winning, year after year. This was all deemed PERFECTLY acceptable until that other now infamous happening, when Show of Hands WON the first ever Public Vote, for 'Best Live Act'.

Oh dear me. :0(

Show of Hands had 'got in under the radar' as Ian Anderson described artists who 'they' deemed unacceptable to the 'folk world'...

Suddenly, the system was changed, within DAYS! The slurs started, written by er...one particular Princess on here, allegations that the Show of Hands fans had 'fixed' the vote. Ha! They'd simply voted, in their thousands, because......there are THOUSANDS of them. But that suddenly wasn't allowed, because, as the BBC host, Mel, said, 'they'd just keep winning the Public Vote year after year'....and she also stated that the only person who'd be happy about that would be me.

She was wrong actually. I'd not have wanted that to happen, neither, I'm sure, would Show of Hands. All they had to do was ensure that no artist/s could win the public vote two years running. Problem solved.


So, let me get this straight. Show of Hands, and anyone else 'outside the radar' are NOT allowed to win Awards year after year, but those INSIDE the 'radar' ARE?

OKKKKKKKKKKKKKay!

I asked who the judges were. Ian Anderson was one. Not a clue who the others were, or are, to this day. I pointed out how deeply unfair it was to have a judge who had 'radar' around his little world of accpeted acts. Needless to say, this wasn't liked much, and I fast went from being Smooth Ops Darling, to their biggest enemy.

I also stated that the Folk Awards were the ONE time when the folk world can help an amazing amount of artists in their careers, get their names out to others. Why then were the same artists not only nominated year after year, but were, and still are, nomimated in MANY categories?

Why not have it so that one artist gets one nomination. The other nominations get shared around other artists in a fair and measured fashion.

They also should get shared around artists who are OUTSIDE the radar.

For way too long the Folk World has been stitched up by a cosy little group of people, who regard themselves as Big Fish in a Small Pond, and no way are they EVER going to let go of their positions, and their self-important, supercilious, sneeringly superior attitude to others.

Al is dead right. He always has been. And many of his posts hit home to these people, and they hit home hard! They don't like it, same as they don't like my posts either.

I've worked out how it all works over these years, and you know something, it stinks.

That is why I have no interest in the Folk Awards any longer. It's also why I have no respect whatsoever for Smooth Ops. And as far as writing to the BBC goes, Dave..people should save their ink, because they truly don't give a shite.

The Folk Awards are pretty much a private party for the Selected Ones, who come inside the radar of the Traddie side of folk. It's all they want it to be. You can see, from the various ways that singer songwriters are spat on by the same few people, that it won't ever change.

Of course, these people also tell us over and again, how intelligent and intellectual they all are, how much they know, how expert they are, yadda yadda yadda...without realising two important and very obvious facts.

1. TRUE Intellectuals *never* beat their own chests, calling themselves by that very name, or delighting in shoving down people's throats that they know FAR MORE than *you* do. Why? Because they're too darn busy helping others to learn, whilst never choosing to belittle them in any way whatsoever.

I have a lot of respect for the True Intellectuals, and Shit All for the Up Their Own Arses types who have a degree on paper which to me is worth nowt, because they have no degree in their heart.

2. The first man whoever hummed his tune, sang his song, wrote his words about what was happening around him about his love, his woes, was the very first Singer Songwriter.

Folk music has all to do with Singer Songwriters, and not those who have put their music and words under microscopes, so they can use their knowledge as weapons against others.

Without our Singer Songwriters, there would be NO folk awards, no traditional world, no Cecil Sharp House, no Folk World at all really.


I suggest the Folk Awards renames itself The Singer Songwriter Awards, because that way, it will be an honest representation of the very people who brought this music to life, and who, to this day, are keeping that Tradition going, just as Al Whittle is doing, just as No Fixed Abode are doing too.

Al's Myspace

No Fixed Abode's myspace

Al writes some great songs, and he knows how to deliver them too.

Listen to Una's voice, and tell me why they're not considered for Folk Awards too? Ashley Hutchings obviously thinks that they're pretty damned good, as he's playing on their CD.

So yes, I can perfectly understand how angry Al feels, because I feel exactly the same, but....I haven't been trying to get into a closed world as he, and countless others have been trying to do for so very long.

Thank Heavens that there are people like Al around to shout from the rafters about the Injustices that have been happening within the English Folk World for so very long.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:20 AM

OK, Lizzie - you've had your little rant - in this thread, and in the other Folk Awards thread. When you start sounding too combative, I have to cut you off. You're no longer welcome to post in this thread, or on any other Folk Awards 2009 thread.
The rest of you, go back to the subject at hand. Any mention of Lizzie, and any posts from Lizzie will be deleted.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM

Isn't there a bloke (now dead) called "Revolving" Cecil Sharpe?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

TOP OATES

Best Original Song:

All You Pretty Girls Vid - final version

Best Traditional Song:

Lark In The Morning (Morris Offspring "Rising" version)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:33 AM

Isn't there a bloke (now dead) called "Revolving" Cecil Sharpe?

What does this mean? I read through the thread and I googled. I don't get it.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM

"What's not to congratulate?"

Nothing!!

But if I like other stuff please allow me to say so.

End of my contribution to this thread.

Dave

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM

ARRGGHH! Diane what format is All the Pretty Girls in? No sound or video though it was tracker was showing it playing.

Jackie Oates uncompromisingly wonderful.

I listened to the Morris Offspring Band - Bitter Withy and Old Oss too.

Next on my CD wish list.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM

Jackie Oates's Lark is wonderful - thanks, Diane.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:42 AM

Ms Tam: All You Pretty Girls is just a later edit of what's on YouTube.
Mr Cap: No point in saying this now, Mr Whittle's out of the door.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM

I am glad to see freedom of speech has been restored .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: SunrayFC
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:50 AM

Oh dear what did I start.....only meant to say what I said. And I stand by that.

Keep happy and stay polite!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

Sunray, you opening post was fine. Don't worry. It was the rest of us who had us a war...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM

Evening. Just passing through. Curiouser and curiouser. I was there. In the end I had to present a gong due to the 'no shows' (or was it snow shoes?) I don't recall anyone taking the mickey to any great extent that might serve to denigrate the music. David Puttnam and Steve Winwood were both dignified and articulate.Ade Emondsons appreciation of Jackies music is absolutely truthful and heartfelt. He does play her album in the car all the time. Harry Shearer wins the all time prize and , as far as I'm concerned can take the p**s if he wishes to. I can't even think about the sheer brilliance of the Folksmen without chuckling to myself. Mel was quite funny and certainly didn't offend anyones sensibilities in the room. Rob just went into standup mode and lifted the night in the right place. None of us lot are household names. Most of the presenters of gongs ARE which is the ENTIRE point. The involvement of these names brings a higher level of public 'cred' and therefore can only serve to enhance the genre. If you want people to come to your clubs, singarounds, concerts etc. They have to be aware of their existence. I suspect that the reason why my presentation of the Folk Club award was not included is because I'm one of the usual suspects and who wants to hear me droning on when most of the aforementioned are ten times more interesting!! As far as I am concerned, this was the best Awards yet. They got the balance right!!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for those comments - much the same as others have posted, Ruth Archer Who was also there) posted ear;lier that the speeches were in order; people have also pointed out the need to raise the profile and the need to have some "names" there.

Nice to have it confirmed from someone else who was there.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:49 AM

Anyone got an application form for this "Inner Folk Circle"?
Does one get to wear an apron, and do peculiar things with goats? I hope so. (I likes goats me!).
Seriously I'm with Mr Beer.
And for the prolier than thou crowd. Just listen (and I mean LISTEN) to the words of Chris Woods winning song. A better and restrained anti middle-class rant, I've yet to hear.
I've never heard of Al or NFA. Doesn't mean they're bad or anything like that. They just haven't fallen into my Radar!
Also haven't heard of most of the Brit winners of the Grammys. Some 21 year old girl, was one. can't remember her name, or her song. But she won an award as the best newcomer. Good for her. Doubt if I'll be rushing out to HMV though.
All in all, The FA is what it is. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
Most working people have Christmas parties. This is the Folk version. Whats wrong with that?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 03:31 AM

(I likes goats me!).

I wondered why there was never a goat in sight during Folk Week at Sidmnouth whilst there are loads the rest of the year!

The cry used to be "lock up your daughters", now it's "lock up your goats!!"

It's an age thing I suppose......

:-)>

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM

I've said this elsewhere, but I strongly suspect that the recent surge in folk-type programmes on BBC4 etc will have been influenced by the incontrovertible evidence of excellence and popularity placed before senior BBC execs at the awards. Those who deny the trickle effect may not be looking at the whole picture, or seeing the future potential. I'm also reasonably confident that the balanced spread of nominees this year, and the freshness of the results, has been influenced by recent rule changes such as agents being prevented from voting for their own acts. Which suggests that gentle positive agitation can deliver results. If there is a 'buggins turn' factor at work, then this seems to be coming, naturally, from the panel, as it should. Phil explains the need for famous faces better than I've yet been able to. Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:17 AM

Not perfect, but better than nothing.
no, we dont need these awards,no disrespect or slight on any of the winners,but they are [IMO] UNECESSARY.
What the folk scene needs is more workshops ,so that those who wish to improve can do so.
the need for improvement[imo] is in the standard of floorsingers

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 07:27 AM

"Inner Folk Circle" ? sounds like something on the London tube circuit .... or a slightly dodgy sect. I'd quite like an apron, but am not sure about the goats thing!

Re the Grammys, Ralphie the young lady in question was Adele and herewith a video of her single Chasing Pavements Not bad, but I must agree that I won't be rushing to HMV in the very immediate future - not really my cup of tea at all.

Very interesting and valid points from both Phil and Tom, although I'm not totally swayed by the argument that "the incontrovertible evidence of excellence and popularity" has been recognised ... popularity maybe ... but excellence? We know that, of course, but I wonder if the talking heads at the top really do?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:01 AM

But Cap'n, don't we need events like the Awards to attract new and young people to the genre?

Workshops are a great idea, But they will only draw the already converted.
If people who are unfamiliar with the music are not exposed to it by these programmes, what will the future be like?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:02 AM

A contender for next year's best original song:

THE BALLAD OF CASEY'S BILLY-GOAT

Intro: You've heard of "Casey at The Bat"
And "Casey's Tabble Dote"
But now it's time
To write a rhyme
Of "Casey's Billy-goat."

Pat Casey had a billy-goat he gave the name of Shamus,
Because it was (the neighbours said) a national disgrace.
And sure enough that animal was eminently famous
For masticating every rag of laundry round the place.
For shirts to skirts prodigiously it proved its powers of chewing
The question of digestion seemed to matter not at all
But you'll agree, I think with me, its limit of misdoing
Was reached the day it swallowed Missis Rooney's ould red shawl.

Now Missis Annie Rooney was a winsome widow women
And many a bouncing boy had sought to make her change her name
And living just across the way 'twas surely only human
A lonesome man like Casey should be wishfully the same.
So every Sunday, shaved and shined, he'd make the fine occasion
To call upon the lady, and she'd take his and coat;
And supping tea it seemed that she might yield to his persuasion
But alas! he hadn't counted on that devastating goat.

For Shamus loved his master with a deep and dumb devotion,
And everywhere that Casey went that goat would want to go
And though I cannot analyze a quadruped's emotion,
They said the baste was jealous, and I reckon it was so.
For every time that Casey went to call on Missis Rooney
Beside the gate the goat would wait with woefulness intense
Until one day it chanced that they were fast becoming spooney
When Shamus spied that ould red shawl a-flutter on the fence.

Now Missis Rooney loved that shawl beyond all rhyme or reason
And maybe 'twas an heirloom or a cherished souvenir
For judging by the way she wore it season after season,
I might have been as precious as a product of Cashmere.
So Shamus strolled towards it, and no doubt the colour pleased him
For he biffed it and he sniffed it, as most any goat might do
Then his melancholy vanished as a sense of hunger seized him
And he wagged his tail with rapture as he started in to chew.

"Begorrah! you're a daisy," said the doting Mister Casey
to the blushing Widow Rooney as they parted at the door.
"Wid yer tinderness an' tazin' sure ye've set me heart a-blazin'
And I dread the day I'll nivver see me Anniw anny more."
"Go on now wid yer blarney," said the widow softly sighing;
And she went to pull his whiskers, when dismay her bosom smote. . . .
Her ould red shawl! 'Twas missin' where she'd left it bravely drying
Then she saw it disappearing - down the neck of Casey's goat.

Fiercely flamed her Irish temper, "Look!" says she, "The thavin' divvle
Sure he's made me shawl his supper, well, I hope it's to his taste
But excuse me, Mister Casey, if I seem to be oncivil
For I'll nivver wed a man wid such a misbegotten baste."
So she slammed the door and left him in a state of consternation,
And he couldn't understand it, till he saw that grinning goat.
Then with eloquence he cussed it, and his final fulmination
Was a poem of profanity impossible to quote.

So blasting goats and petticoats and feeling downright sinful
Despairfully he wandered in to Shinnigan's shebeen;
And straightway he proceeded to absorb a might skinful
Of the deadliest variety of Shinnigan's potheen.
And when he started homeward it was in the early morning,
But Shamus followed faithfully, a yard behind his back.
Then Casey slipped and stumbled, and without the slightest warning
Like a lump of lead he tumbled - right across the railroad track.

And there he lay, serenely, and defied the powers to budge him,
Reposing like a baby, with his head upon the rail;
But Shamus seemed unhappy, and from time to time would nudge him,
Though his prods to protestation were without the least avail.
Then to that goatish mind, maybe, a sense of fell disaster
Came stealing like a spectre in the dim and dreary dawn
For his bleat of warning blended with the snoring of his master
In a chorus of calamity - but Casey slumbered on.

Yet oh, that goat was troubled, for his efforts were redoubled
Now he tugged at Casey's whisker, now he nibbled at his ear
Now he shook him by the shoulder, and with fear become bolder
He bellowed like a fog-horn, but the sleeper did not hear.
Then up and down the railway line he scampered for assistance
But anxiously he hurried back and sought with tug and strain
To pull his master off the track . . . when sudden! in the distance
He heard the roar and rumble of the fast approaching train.

Did Shamus faint and falter? No, he stood there stark and splendid.
True, his tummy was distended, but he gave his horns a toss.
By them his goathood's honour would be gallantly defended
And if their valour failed him - he would perish with his boss
So dauntlessly he lowered his head, and ever clearer, clearer,
He heard the throb and thunder of the Continental Mail.
He would face the mighty monster. It was coming nearer, nearer.
He would fight it, he would smite it, but he'd never show his tail.

Can you see that hirsute hero, standing there in tragic glory?
Can you hear the Pullman porters shrieking horror to the sky?
No, you can't; because my story has no end so grim and gory,
For Shamus did not perish and his master did not die.
At this very present moment Casey swaggers hale and hearty,
And Shamus strolls beside him with a bright bell at his throat
While recent Missis Rooney is the gayest of the party,
For now she's Missis Casey and she's crazy for that goat.

You're wondering what happened? Well, you know that truth is stranger
Than the wildest brand of fiction, so I'll tell you without shame.
There was Shamus and his master in the face of awful danger,
And the giant locomotive dashing down in smoke and flame.
What power on earth could save them? Yet a golden inspiration
To gods and goats alike may come, so in that brutish brain
A thought was born - the ould red shawl. . . . Then rearing with elation,
Like lightning Shamus threw it up - AND FLAGGED AND STOPPED THE TRAIN.

(Robert W. Service, Bar-Room Ballads, 1940)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:25 AM

But Cap'n, don't we need events like the Awards to attract new and young people to the genre?.
no, I dont think we do .
the best thing the BBC ever did was John Pearses HOLD DOWN A CHORD,
the BBC[imo] would be better employed,Having somebody exploring different fiddle and other instrumental styles,explaining the difference in regional styles,within the islands of and close to Britain[including ireland.],and or exploring in depth the unaccompanied singing traditions of these islands.
and exploring in detail the morris traditions of this country
the BBCS role should be educational.
all the BBC awards do is promote various revival singers[Iam not saying they are not good performers ] but it isnot necessary,what is needed for a tree to flourish ,is that its roots are encouraged.
for the record if I was offered an MBE,or a BBC folkaward,I would refuse both .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: LesB
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

Not eveyone wants to be a performer.
think anything that gets our music listened to by a wider range of people must be a good thing, nonwithstanding the good or bad, likes or dislikes, of the awards.
In my youth most of us started out either coming from The Spinnners end of the spectrum or from Steeleye Span / Fairport end. Thereby starting a liftime journey of discovery.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:12 AM

it is easy to make an assumption,that because we all like this kind of music,that everyone who sees it on television[whatever their age] will like it.
this is not so.
our kind of music, like jazz is a minority taste .
and while it has not been promoted well,there is no guarantee that even if the music was promoted well,that it would be popular.
my argument is that The BBC awards are not the best way to promote the music . ,and not the best way to improve standards in the folk revival.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:30 AM

We can have both! Award ceremonies for people like me who are glad that folk music attracts a bit of airtime and glad that someone thinks it worthwhile to celebrate the music on primetime radio. Workshops for people who can sing and play and want to improve. Like the ones the Snail's lot organise, for instance.

More generally, sometimes I think 'folkies' just like to have something to complain about. They think its part of the job description.

(And at the risk of repeating myself, isn't Jackie Oates fab? Isn't her version of 'Lark in the Morning' a corker and a deserving winner? Who'd be mean enough to begrudge it her and why on earth want to? And dontcha just love that shruti box?)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 09:33 AM

And by the way, a colleague of mine who wouldn't usually spit on the entire folk canon if it was on fire, just came up to me yesterday to announce that she was now the proud owner of a Bellowhead album and she loved it! Where did she hear Bellowhead? On the radio!

Ok, back to business as usual...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

Spleen, realistically we will not get both,so I would like to see the BBC awards scrapped,and something else,of a less competetive nature put in its place.
yes I have in the past mentioned some of the good points about Comhaltas competitions,but I also have reservations about these,however these competitions should not,and dont generally get air play.
the spin off musicians at the fleadhs[which are televised] are something different,but the competitions do not generally get television or radio play.
why cant the BBC promote folksong and dance without having competetive awards,preferably concentrating on the roots of the music rather than revival singers.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Stu
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

"why cant the BBC promote folksong and dance without having competetive awards,preferably concentrating on the roots of the music rather than revival singers."

I feel pretty ambivalent about the Folk Awards, and as has been said they certainly serve a purpose (which is great) for the industry but I suspect to many of the great unwashed they seem like yet another award ceremony which is down in London and we get a slightly different version of Mike Harding's show (I wouldn't include the young folk awards in the same bracket, as virtually all of the competitors are unknown). I'm not criticising - there's some excellent music and superb musicians being acknowledged and if award ceremonies are your bag then great, but something is missing . . .

I believe the BBC could take a leaf out of Clare FM's book, as their kitchen sessions series does get to the roots of the music. But then here's a real and fundamental difference in the way the music is perceived by a section of the public in Ireland as opposed to the UK. Ordinary people playing, telling stories, dancing and singing in their own homes. These people have the music as an intrinsic part of their lives but are not performers, and whilst many of us here play in sessions week in, week out I'm not sure it's quite the same and unfortunately I can't see a time where there would be an English (is there a Welsh or Scottish version - I'd love to know) equivalent of this show.

Relevant, entertaining and above all authentic in a way ordinary people can relate to. Now that would be a real step forward in getting this music out there.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

isn't Jackie Oates fab? Isn't her version of 'Lark in the Morning' a corker and a deserving winner? Who'd be mean enough to begrudge it her and why on earth want to?

I replied to this a few hours ago, reminding peeps of exactly who did just this. Someone who thinks no-one else should touch LITM since Steeleye recorded it in 1970. I gave a link to the Steeleye version, just I had already done to the version from the live Morris Offspring show Rising by Jackie Oates and Saul Rose.

So if you want to see the former version for comparison, featuring a bloke called "Carty" if the miserable old git who thinks life stopped then is to be believed, you'll just have to bloody well google it yourselves.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM

Diane,if someone, thinks that, are they not entitled to their opinion .we are not going to like exactly the same things.
now who can say that Chris Woods version of Jehovah is better than Martin Simpsons,I think they are both well performed,this is my whole point,competitive awards,are not the best way to promote this music, on the air,whether its radio or television

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

I was replying to Cringychops' incredulous remark that no-one could possibly diss Jackie Oates by reminding the list that someone had, and in a very noisily axe-grinding way.
Martin Simpson has covered Come Down Jehovah, a song which Chris Woods wrote. He doesn't mind . . .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM

Cringychops?

That's quite sweet. I'm blushing...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM

Diane,you are missing my point.
I am talking about judging performance,and giving awards.
who wrote a song ,when it comes to judging a performance is irrelevant
   my point is this they are both good performances,and it is unnecessary to say one is a better performance than another.
lets take another song, john hardy[an American folk song,author unknown],Martin Simpson has a version on youtube ,so has Roscoe Holcomb,they are both performed very differently but in both cases very well,we dont need to say one is better than the other.
or ICARUS[author anne lister]MartinSimpson recorded this so did Nic Jones,they are both good versions,but we dont need a panel, to tell us one is better than another.
this music is not some top ten competition .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

[Gimme strength . . . ]

Dick: the category is for Best Original Song from an album released during the past 12 months. Come Down Jehovah (written and performed by Chris Wood) was one of the nominations in this category. A version by Martin Simpson obviously was not as he has not got a version out on a CD released in the past year. Jim Moray won the category with All You Pretty Girls written by Andy Partiridge. The version of this song by XTC was not considered because it was released 20 years ago

Icarus is a complete red herring as no-one (as far as I know) released a version in the past year (or if they did it wasn't nominated).

Jackie Oates won the category for Best Traditional Track from her CD The Violet Hour released . . . yes, last year. It was not up against Steeleye Span's version from Please To See The King as that was released almost 40 years ago.

Quite simple, really.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

I do understand what you mean Captain, the very concept of competition sits ill with what I love about music, but sometimes you have to sleep with the enemy.

It's their ball so we have to play by their rules.

If the award system is fair (better, but a little way to go still) and it gets mainstream attention (it does) and more importantly media attention (who go looking for more good stuff - as the BBC have done with BBC4) then it's worth swallowing the bait and swimming.

Most artists understand that this is a game, and well worth the candle. As long as no-one's being stitched up or pushed out we can all benefit to a lesser or perhaps even lesser extent - but we do.

Cost-wise its a reasonable use of the licence fee, given the demands and the constraints of mainstream broadcasting.

Yes, we can improve it - and we are slowly doing so.

Yes, we could do with additional, more grass-rooty awards - but other awards are available

Yes, we need more and different coverage of folk and heritage music in the media

Yes, workshops are a good thing and more would be grand

But no, scrapping the awards is unlikely to deliver any of the above.

When you manage to set a good found, you build on it. You don't wander off with the stones in your hand.

Tom

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:43 PM

"More generally, sometimes I think 'folkies' just like to have something to complain about. They think its part of the job description"

I mean does he write his own material or is there a script writer involved..?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:50 PM

God I would love the laying on of workshops and instructive programes by the BBC. Right there with that.

But it is not likley to happen is it? Sigh.

Now I am depressed, because I want this now. I want a weekly televised tune session for each of the following instruments.

Guitar, Mandolin, Mountain Dulcimer, Whistles and recorders and Bodhran. I draw the line at shaky eggs. If you need instruction for these there is no hope for you.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

good post Tom.
Diane. are you deliberately missing my point?, which is,that it is a nonsense to judge two good performers against each other,never mind examples,and who wrote what.
how can anyone say that one performers version of a song is better than anothers it is just subjective preference.
presumably there was a best singer award and best instrumentalist award as well as best songwriter ,sorry I dont like this concept,its a nonsense .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM

"That'll be John Tams, Barbara Dickson, Ade Edmundson, Linda Thompson, Phil Beer, etc. who have "no idea" will it, then."

Well, I can't speak for the others, but Barbara Dickson certainly does have an idea, given that she started out as a Folk Singer, herself.

If you don't believe me, just ask Jack Beck!

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

No, I am not "missing your point". You don't appear to have one other than to demonstrate an inability to grasp what the Folk Awards are for.

I am no fan of Smoothops, nor, if it were up to me, would I organise the awards quite as they do operate. They are NOT, however, an exercise in picking out "the best" of all time (apart from when there was a public vote for "the most influential album of all time") but simply the choice of a voting panel from among what has emerged during the past year.

Thus the hypothetical examples you are hurling into the air do not accord with the reality of what does occur. Why don't you read the FA site?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Ptarmigan ,who said no idea,not my words.
Diane,My point is that these awards only use is that they further the winners careers, and provide a small amount of trad based music with a competitive formula. I think the BBC would be better off scrapping these awards,and putting on programmes that give in depth analysis of the roots of this music.,plus programmes like the hold down a chords series,but say using open tunings for guitar ,aand dealimg with other instruments
your opinion is different from mine .so why dont we beg to differ and leave it at that.good night

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM

Are you somehow confusing me with John Leonard or Bob Shennan? I'm simply giving an account of what Smoothops / R2 do, not offering an opinion on it.

Yes, the Folk Awards further the winners' careers. And?

BBC4 has transmitted (many times over) a series outlining the roots of trad music in these islands - Folk Britannia.

No, I am quite sure the BBC doesn't have plans for an Open Conservatoire. The ratings would be off the lower end of the scale.
Where would the budget come from, and to what end? Be realistic.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

And maybe someone would complain that the tunes broadcasted were not as they'd like them.
Not anyone from here of course.

Al

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:57 PM

Dick - personally I want all folk musicians careers furthered.

Awards do this and there are other ways - but this is as good as anything we have at the moment.

Irish music in Ireland (and here to an extent) thrives on competition - I remember you telling the board with pride that you were a judge at one.

Likewise Scottish music - lots of competition. I went to one scottish festival last year. The village was so tiny, it took just a few minutes to walk the whole of it. There were 75 entrants in the piping competition. Don't tell me that wasn't a good thing.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:06 AM

Dave, because I once sat as a judge in a childrens competition is irrelevant ,my point is that this is not the best way to present folk music ,either on radio or television .
second point, I consider this sort of presentation second best,I am not prepared to accept second best.
third point,your competitions you visited were not on the air,so their mention is irrelevant.
the good as anything we have at the moment argument,is similiar to its good enough for folk ,folk music deserves a more sympathetic presentation ,this competition is not the best way to present and make people aware of the music,I want the best not just any old thing.
I am not interested in revival musicians careers being furthered,I am more concerned about the state of the revival folk scene[programmes like this do nothing to help ] and also the necessity of people to be aware of the roots of the music.
folk music [imo] would be better served with a more in depth presentation .