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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: denise:^) Date: 11 Dec 02 - 03:36 PM I agree, Ron--I don't think it's negative that we have the opportunity to support the kind of programming WE prefer on the public television and radio stations--I'm glad that there's *someone* out there, willing to listen to us and try to give us what we want! Or, at least, something better than the norm... (but I really can't take Wayne Dyer...;^) I agree, too, that the 'specials' should maybe be a little more spread out, so that they don't ALWAYS mean "Pledge Drive Time is Here Again." As far as being told you're singing a folk song the "wrong" way--I wasn't even BORN in 1960, but I've been told that plenty-o-times! No matter where you are, no matter what you're doing, there's going to be someone who knows "better than you" how it should be done! I've had that at school (I'm a teacher), at church, and, yes, at our local folk club--whether I'm singing or organizing an event, there's always someone who knows "better" words, or "the original" version,or saw it done a much better way at___________. The Kingston Trio didn't invent that--I think it's called "human nature..." denise:^) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Ron Olesko Date: 11 Dec 02 - 03:50 PM You are right Denise, there are always those who know it better. Considering that Francis Child collected dozens of versions of many of these songs, it amazes me that there are still people who can only hear ONE version. This is a living tradition, accept what you like! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:04 PM Well, come on now. Some here have said they enjoyed a song here or a song there on this program. But pretty much every poster who saw it said the program was pretty appallingly bad, and that it seemed at the very least, exploitative of some of the former (to some people) "greats" like the KT. This sort of PBS nostalgia programming is not what will make anyone I know pledge money, if this is what it is supposed to be about. QUALITY PROGRAMMING is supposed to make us want to donate. If they give us this sort of schlock for programming week, well... So here is my question. My local affiliate showed 'This Land is Your Land' three or four times during pledge week. Now, maybe huge numbers of PBS viewers pledged money during the program, but does anyone suppose they might have gotten more pledges had they shown the 4 part "American Roots Music" series instead. It can't be a question of which program was more affordable to run I don't think, because my local affiliate will start rerunning "Aemrican Roots Music' this Saturday, for the next four Saturday nights. Interesting question, which "folk" music program would actually draw more in the way of pledges and viewers. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Ron Olesko Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:12 PM We may not like the quality of the program, but obviously there are people who liked it enough to pledge. It may not have inspired any Mudcatters to donate, but obviously we aren't the audience they were aiming for. Yes, it could be a question of which program was more affordable to run. Remember that most of these productions are made by independent producers who sell the programs to PBS. Each makes their own deals. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:18 PM I agree with what you are saying Ron, that we weren't the target audience. I'm saying that for my particular PBS affiliate (TPT), they will start running American Roots this Saturday--the day after the pledge drive ends. So since TPT obviously could afforded to have run it locally (instead of just taking the PBS feeds), and considering that there is a strong and vibrant folk music community here in Minnesota, wouldn't they have been better served using the 'American Roots' special instead of this schlocky piece? They make their own deals, of course, but what I'm wondering is if anyone has even bothered to do the market research of which program was more likely to pull in viewers who pledge. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Ron Olesko Date: 11 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM I would bet that they did the market research and the "This Land" special came out as the better choice FOR PLEDGES. I'm not saying they are right, but they could very well be. Also, if my fading memory serves me right, American Roots has been making the rounds of PBS for over a year now and "This Land" is new. Repeat broadcasts are not going to pull as high of a number as a new show. If you or I had our choice we probably would go with American Roots, but that doesn't mean we are in the majority. Look at the bright side, at least your PBS station knows enough to put on a quality program like American Roots. I would be glad that it is on without all the pitches - you get to watch it uninterrupted. Someone mentioned bait and switch earlier. That is a tough call because PBS is "event" driven as opposed to "series". Sure there are series like Nova that are the meat and potatoes for PBS, but they DO fund-raising. The specials are events they put on to tweak viewers - having viewers tune in that might not do so. They aren't shutting out the regulars, merely trying to widen their audience. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:14 PM I just remembered this--Maryl Neff's great 1996 study of American folk music. This page of her great site treats the very subject of the 'This Land' program: http://www.coe.ufl.edu/courses/EdTech/Vault/Folk/revival.htm You Tom Dooley fans should definitely give this one a read! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:16 PM Jimmyt, coffeehouses were probably the most stable venues for folk music in the late Fifties and early Sixties, but I don't agree that the pop-folk groups had all that much to do with coffeehouses or many other venues. I had heard of coffeehouses in the Bay Area in the early Fifties. Rolf Cahn started a place called "The Blind Lemon" in Berkeley early on, where he sang, along with Barbara Dane, Jo Mapes, and others. There was "The Place," "The Brighton Express," and a couple of other places in San Francisco. This was well before the Kingston Trio got started. And there were places in Boston and Greenwich Village which had been operating long before that. People like Ed McCurdy, whom I first heard of in 1954, were singing in various clubs and coffeehouses around New York. The places were already there, a small number of very good singers were already there, and the audiences were already there. It was different from the usual fare, and audiences were really hungry for this sort of thing. In Seattle, the first coffeehouse was the "Café Encore," opened by a guy from New York who had come to Seattle to open an antique store, but when he found there were no coffeehouses here, he started one. Several singers, including me, who's interest had been initiated by Burl Ives, Susan Reed, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and the Weavers; (all pre-Kingston Trio), dropped in and sang there. The Café Encore was so successful that Bob Clark, who owned the Guild 45th Theater (specializing in foreign films), wanted a piece of the action and opened the second coffeehouse in Seattle: "The Place Next Door." That was probably the biggest and nicest coffeehouse in town. On weekends, people lined up around the block to get in. Pop-folk groups had little or nothing to do with this. The coffeehouse / folk singer connection had been established for at least a decade by the time the Kingston Trio had its first big hit in 1958. What they did was hop on their surfboards and ride a wave that was already cresting. With Tom Dooley as a hit song, suddenly folk music was big money. Hit Parade. Radio. Juke boxes. Television. ABC Hootenanny. New coffeehouses everywhere. New folk trios 'til hell won't have it, all learning from each other's records or writing their own "folk songs." Like most popular fads, it flared like a meteor and faded out. The afterglow still exists (witness this thread). But the main stream of folk music was there long before, perturbed a bit in the Sixties by something akin to Greshams Law. But that main stream, if it's healthy, which I think it is, will keep right on going. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM GUEST, excellent website! I discovered this a couple of months ago. Good stuff. Here's a LINK. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: jimmyt Date: 11 Dec 02 - 08:17 PM Don, I stand corrected. I am relatively a newcomer to folk music, and I learn a lot by reading from folke like you , Ron Olesco, Jerry Rasmussen, Rick Fielding, etc. as well as catching hell from others like guest. I appreciate your information as well as correction. It is nice to learn from folks who have "been there" from the beginning...I guess that is oral tradition, huh? |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: catspaw49 Date: 11 Dec 02 - 09:44 PM I am enjoying the comments here from all as usual. The thread is a whole lot better than the show of course. I had decided to take a pass on the show as I knew what it would be from reading about the lineup. So Sunday night I'm at Connie's and her boys were really excited that it would be on when Uncle Pat was there because they knew I wanted to see it...........oy........so I sat through it and discussed with them the differences in folk/trad and the sanitized folk we were watching. And fortunately also in my van was my set of Frank Proffitt tapes so during dinner we played those.......Made for an interesting evening and perhaps they learned a bit. BTW, I did enjoy Tommy and Dick but I always did.....they alays had a cute act for the most part. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST Date: 12 Dec 02 - 10:33 AM So who caught the Bravo special on the political controversies surrounding the Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour? I thought that was a pretty good show, and it was very interesting to hear the perspectives of Tom & Dick themselves. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM Pap be pap whatever anybody says. 'Twas pap then and is still that now. Ten million people might do and like dumb stuff, but that does not make it better than it is/was. Does it pass the pap test? That is the question. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST,Tinker Date: 12 Dec 02 - 12:44 PM Hey, Art, it's the Tinker from Molly's Place, where you played many a year ago (as well as with us at WFMT). Yes, pap is still pap, but until we all agree on a definition for pap, we're back to matters of taste. Every performer has people who hate their music; they're just not as vocal as the ones who like it. It's like when my brother used to brag about the people who came up to him after Mass and complimented his sermon. I told him there were just as many people in the parking lot, grumbling about it. But gang, if PBS was going to disinter the Highwaymen, who are so out of the picture that another group successfully stole their name (Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, et al.), couldn't they have re-assembled an extremely popular group from the Scare days whose member are all still alive? The Chad Mitchell Trio, I mean, whose original guitarist was none other than Roger (Jim) McGuinn. And how can Glenn Yarborough "reunite" with people he never performed with? And why do the Limeliters consistently avoid mentioning Ernie Sheldon, the guy who really did replace Yarborough? One wonders. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Dec 02 - 10:19 PM Aye, Brian, I bow to your fine logic. And it's great to hear from you----even if we are doing some blatant thread creeping. Glad to know you're lurking out there and got to see me blowing my cool in public here---like I do every so often. Someone who was through here not long ago was on their way to do a show at your place. Either that or they had just done one. So much for my memory. -------- I do know you're right on this pretty much. But still, if I didn't live up to being the curmudgeon you all expect me to be, well, I'd not be able to live with myself. Love to Ms Molly, and to all. Art |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 13 Dec 02 - 10:12 PM But I'm right. Art ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Dec 02 - 05:20 PM PLEASE disregard EVERYTHING I have posted to this thread up to this post. I was I WAS WRONG !!!!! I just now, finally, watched a video of the show. It was just fine. It was great to see that all those musicians and singers have survived and are still playing the music. The picking was just great. McGuinn and McGuire (or however you spell it) sounded as good as ever. I loved the updated words for "EVE OF DESTRUCTION". The harmonies of the Limelighters never sounded better to my ears---much better than I had remembered. It was just a kick and a half to see Glenn back with Alex Hasselev. And hearing them do Bob Gibson's "I Come For To Sing" reminded me how very many songs Gibson gave to the revival of the 50s and the 60s. His arrangements and his songs run all through the records of not only the Limelighters, but the Chad Mitchell Trio, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, the Kingston Trio, the New Wine Singers, and so many more. Yeah, some of this was mediocre. The editing could've been done a lot better----and I do wish they had broadcast the entire show instead of destoying the group's sets. So many of the "sidemen and sidewomen" on the show should've been noted and given credit for their role in things way back in those times that were. Many were legendary in their own right. Jim McGuinn noted the presence of Mike Settle in his band. Mike Settle was a good songwriter, musician and singer who wrote good song called "Settle Down" back then. At least his name was mentioned.........I remember watching him for a few nights at a strange coffeehouse on Rush Street in Chicago called THE FICKLE PICKLE. It was at that club that I first realized the music world was changing forever when a dynamite waitress walked past me and announced loudly for all to hear, "BOY, WOULD I LIKE TO BALL A BEATLE !!" Alas, Middle Earth was no more. Bilbo was in the Grey Havens. And Jim Kirk was dead. I'M SORRY for being such an opinionated a-hole. As I said, "I was wrong." It was simply fun to wallow in the nostalgia that was this little program. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: katlaughing Date: 16 Dec 02 - 05:59 PM We watched a little bit of it. A lot of what they were calling folk, I would consider more pop(ular). I have to say I couldn't stand the rendition of Eve of Destruction..it seemed to take away all of the power and oomph of the song as I remember it. I also have a hard time considering, was it the Byrds, who were included as folk singers? I still love their music, though.**bg** The best bit, IMO, was the end with Tommy and Dick Smothers doing their madrigal music routine. I still have that tune in my head. And, Judy Collins singing Amazing Grace wow, what a voice, still! Art, this whole crew is an opinionated lot, if we weren't it'd be very boring around here! kat |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 16 Dec 02 - 06:26 PM Art, In a way, everyone associated with performing folk music is in show business in one way or another. As soon as you start playing for the public professionally, you are in show business. Show business is a tricky and fickle thing because it is about catering to a marketable taste. Pete Seeger is one of the greatest show business personalities that ever hit the stage but he would probably abhor my saying so. I admire him for this gift. His ability to communicate is phenomenal regardless of whether he was accepted by the media or not. The point is, it's a matter of taste. Some like Elvis or Pete or both. But there is such a thing as a cultivated taste. Many other factors come in to play such as one's upbringing and values. But the bottom line is that everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what they think is good or bad and it's OK not to like something for personal reasons. My view is that there's something pretty good in everything that surfaces professionally whether I like it or not. But I'm also entitled not to like it for X reasons. Art, you don't have to apologize to anyone. I don't care that much for Jimi Hendrix but I would have to be a fool to say that he wasn't incredibly great at what he did. But I can say also in the same breath that I found his music somewhat monotonous. But that's me. I find a Woody Guthrie song fascinating and there are those who would be bored to tears with it. So, Art, you get to be as opinionated as anyone else on Mudcat without having to apologize. Keep it coming. BTW it should be mentioned that Tom Dooley was popularized by the member of the Folksay Trio, Bob Carey, with Roger Sprung and Erik Darling. Bob was the one that came up with the little hiccup in "hang down your head Tom (hiccup) Dooley which was the hook that propelled the KT's version to fame and fortune. I think that hiccup sold more records than Frank Profitt could've imagined it doing. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Big Mick Date: 16 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM Art is one class act. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Dec 02 - 12:19 AM People, I was trying to say that, now that I've seen the show, I see both sides of my own polemic. Roger McGuinn learned from Frank Hamilton at the Old Town School of Folk Music and was in the trio with John Carbo & Louie McDonald at the Sunday Gate Of Horn hoots when I first heard him. I felt all that nostalgia while watching the show probably because I was there then. Kat, McGuire added appropriate updated messages to his old song kind of, and I thought that interesting. I think you know that, even though the program provoked a pleasant nostalgic response from me, I'll not ever mistake it for real folk music. Those mesmerizing times still were seminal for me. So was seeing neon lights reflected on the night wet streets of Chicago after a Kerouac poetry reading or an Odetta concert or a Frank Hamilton set at Navy Pier or even a joint lecture by James T. Farrell and Nelson Algren; --- then going home hand in hand with someone just met two or three drinks before. The sounds on this program brought back Norm Pellegrini and Ray Nordstrand's old Midnight Special radio shows on WFMT when this folk "pap" (as I called it) was regularly mixed with actual ballads and lore. And it did surprise me that the old pap stuff could seem some better for having become old. Might just be an anomaly in the space-time continuum. As such is was the soundtrack of my youth. When both sides of this coin/paradox showed valuable aspects---it simply surprised the hell out of me. Could be I'm more open to the diversity of our music than I had thought ----- or wanted to admit. Love, Art |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: DougR Date: 17 Dec 02 - 01:12 AM I saw the show on TV last night in Dallas. Just my opinion, but I thought it was pretty bad. Most of those folks who I thought were pretty great in the 60's are well past their prime. I can understand for nostalgia's sake why some found it interesting and fun though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Dec 02 - 12:56 PM Doug, while you thought these folks were good years ago, back in the sixties I thought these people were terribly bad ! To me, it seemed they were decent entertainers who were all taking the tradition and not extending it but were milking it for all the dollars they could get while bastardizing it and glitzing it up with a star system that smacked of capitalistic how biz in it's most blatant and negative forms. On this program, here and now, they had their musical chops very well pacticed from all of those years of concert touring. The musical riffs had been standardized and turned into cliches we had heard over and over through the years. Add the actual scores of years to the mix, and you can easily account for the nostalgia I dredged up. "Tambourine Man" is a great song. Put McGuinn's clanging and distorted Rickenbacher 12-string intro in front of it and you have all that was terrible with the 1960s folk rock of the era. The same sound, enhanced a bit by the passing of the years of my life, had become nostalgic to me now. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST,Ray Bucknell Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM Well, now it's time for the next quarterly Pledge Drive, so PBS has been airing This Land Is Your Land again (at least in the New York/Long Island area). I saw the show the first time around but hadn't seen this thread before. I've now read through the entire thread and must say that the program was generally disappointing to me as well, though perhaps not for all the same reasons that some of the other participants have mentioned. I was a small child during the "folk scare" and the more commercial acts of the time were my introduction to the genre. My biggest complaint about the program was not the song selection - although I agree wholeheartedly that the producer hadn't got a clue as to what might remotely qualify as "folk" music. I expected to hear those hackneyed songs because those were the songs that the groups appearing on the show had been best known for singing. My problem was the overall lack of quality in the performances. I did enjoy the Smothers, Limeliters and Judy Collins. Some of the rest of them were actually painful to watch. Tinker, you asked why they didn't have the Chad Mitchell Trio, a group whose members are indeed still alive and who McGuinn played behind for a couple of years, on the show. Rumor has it that the CMT were indeed supposed to be involved in the program, but balked when little Mr. Twentysomething Producer insisted that they sing only their three "best selling hits" (which would include the John Birch Society, a song the Trio doesn't sing anymore because it's too dated). The fact that they did not appear on the show leads me to believe that the artists were not given any creative control whatsoever and refusal to comply with the producer resulted in banishment. It's a shame the CMT weren't there; at least they would have given a credible performance of what many of you call "folk lite." I still cringe when I recall that guy whistling off-key during Michael Row the Boat Ashore. Another problem I had has also been mentioned in passing; many of those appearing on stage were never introduced or acknowledged. I would have liked to know who they were, seeing as I managed to sit through the entire program. The worst had to be when the producer is sitting there touting the $250 box of CDs and all the "great folk music" in it, when anyone can see it's mostly rock material and, what's worse, Tom and Dick Smothers are sitting right there going along with all the BS!!! (Oops, I forgot. They'd have been banished too had they dared to disagree. Almost like what happened to them at CBS about 30 years ago. Guess they learned their lesson!). I doubt PBS made enough in pledges from this show to warrant producing the second one they were talking about, but if they should try another it might be wise to book artists who can still give a decent performance and allow them to chose material they are comfortable performing. Perhaps a little artistic freedom would get them a better crop of artists. And I bet Tom Paxton would do the show if the Chad Mitchell Trio were there. Nobody covered his songs better than they did! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:35 PM I'm reviving this thread because it is more or less on the subject I want to post. The Glen Mitchell Christmas Blockbuster (DERA-FM, Dallas, Texas) is on all day today until Midnight (Central Time) and can be listened to via the internet. He plays a huge variety of stuff, folk, classical, blues, rock, country, lots of trivia, interviews, stories. He already played one of my favorites, the John Henry Faulk story that was first broadcast years ago on Morning Edition. http://www.kera.org/radio/holidays2003/ SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Dec 03 - 02:14 PM So my typing skills stink. That was KERA-FM, though the link was correct. The holiday "Blockbuster" program was only available live, there isn't a recorded version of it (his weekday programs are available on demand, which is why I'm sending this note). He did record a two-hour holiday music program last week that was going out over PRI (Public Radio International) for those who want to look for it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 23 Dec 03 - 05:38 PM Apparently they DID do a second show: |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: GUEST Date: 23 Dec 03 - 08:53 PM Let me see, now.......I want to produce a show that will make bucks for PBS. So, I want to target an audience that has money. The people who were listening to '60's music are in their 60' (for the most part) now. They've gone out and made their money and are comfortably retiring and have enough time to watch a little television. So........Wait! I got it! I'll do a special featuring the people who had some commercial success selling records to this same audience! It will bring back great memories for the geezer crowd and will pry open their wallets at the same time. I won't let them sing any new stuff. They will just sing their tried and true oldies. Damn, I'm cleaver! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music On PBS From: Don Firth Date: 24 Dec 03 - 02:02 PM Beaver Cleaver? Sounds a bit cynical, there, GUEST. Don Firth |
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