BS: Breastfeeding In Public

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:50 AM

What 'gang of 3' and what liberal doctrine, ake? Am I included and is it the doctrine that says statements like "I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss." are no longer socially acceptable?

I have already said it is a complex issue about balancing the needs of a mother and child and social acceptability. I also agree that It should not be used as a political weapon but, by your saying this, you imply that there a significant number of 'silly women' doing the same. What did you expect the reaction to labeling breast feeding mothers as 'silly women' would be? Did you not stop to consider the offense you may cause to any women on here who have breast fed in public and endured the type of abuse that you are happy to repeat?

Maybe you are one of those stupid men who turn this into a "PC gone mad" issue just to cause a fuss? You know you once commented that you had very little basic education? Have you not heard the phrase that you are never too old to learn? Maybe it is time you started.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:27 AM

You're the one trying to make an argument, Steve, instead of simply accepting akenaton's point of view and moving on. He thinks it's complicated - and it is, in some ways. Breastfeeding is the easiest way to feed a baby, but cultural barriers were erected by those who chose the bottle decades ago and new generations are rethinking that artificial standard and the health complications that arose from cows milk and formula. They are accustomed to the artificial methods of feeding babies, and I would guess that people protest nursing in public spaces (discretely or not) because they don't know better. Educating them is complicated.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

Helloo? I don't recall being the one referring to silly women turning it into a feminist issue just to annoy us tender souls who might actually get an outrageous glimpse of disgusting bare breast (if we stare hard enough). You know, I'd have thought that one of the points of a forum which discusses controversial issues is that we can express sharp intolerance of illiberal views emanating from backwoodsmen, such as the one above. Like I said, you have better targets if you really want targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

Odd j

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,major mudcat
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM

Why should not women breast feed in public, why should not we all walk around naked? I do not get upset by women breast feeding.
As a naturist,I also believe we should be allowed to wak round stark naked.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

We haven't yet touched on the issue of milk-formula companies having a vested interest in promoting bottle over the breast. I notice they've invented 'follow-up milk' now, as they know full well women understand the importance of breast milk for their babies. I imagine they'd be ever so delighted if women were ashamed to breastfeed in public and chose a bottle instead.
Sorry akenaton if I branded you as a doddery old thing. As I'm one, I tend to treat everyone else like that too. Many apologies! :)
I agree with major mudcat about naturism and nothing being shameful. The trouble is, cultural taboos prevent such a total commitment to nature. In Africa, legs are totally taboo. A lady can go around topless all day (and they often do) but if she wears a shortish skirt instead of the pagne (traditional wrap-around cloth, maxi length) people will jeer and spit on her. A kindly neighbour will run out with a spare pagne and wrap it round her for decency (so my husband tells me).
If I became a naturist, people would have terrible nightmares. My bottom alone would blot out the sun and be a danger to traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

Steve Shaw opined:

babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.

Fair enough, as far as it goes.

But equally, it is not reasonable to expect slavish obedience
to the demands of others in society just because of their prurient
personal feelings.

"Pay attention", yes; "obey", no.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

We haven't yet touched on the issue of milk-formula companies having a vested interest in promoting bottle over the breast.

Probably because that has bugger-all to do with the point under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 PM

Well it has. As I've just said, if people can be persuaded that breastfeeding is not 'nice' in public, mums may feel more comfortable using a bottle. This means more formula milk sold, and profits for the companies that manufacture it. And why use the expression 'bugger all'? You sound a bit cross, but I can't see why.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:08 PM

I'm with Eliza on this! Back in the late sixties and early seventies when my wife was breast feeding my daghter and then my son, for a short time both at once, we never had any comment at all from bystanders, who accepted it as a normal part of existence. Some averted their gaze, some took a quick and slightly apologetic peek, none of which bothered my wife.

But nobody EVER complained.

By the time that my daughter was breast feeding her first, she was directed to some quite insanitary places (toilets etc.), by staff who were ASSUMING that customers MIGHT be offended.

Now, I don't mind anybody coming to me and saying "This, or that, sight is offensive to me".

I may, or may not, take notice!

But there is one thing that will elicit a vigorous and vociferous response from me (and not in a good way), and that is when anyone professes to be offended on behalf of someone else, or some nebulous group.

He will hear MY expression of displeasure, and so will everybody else within earshot of a hypothetical bomb blast.

Such was the case when dining out with daughter on more than one occasion. Some complainers still remember how quickly a venue can be emptied.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:40 PM

Cindy Kallet's classic take on the issue:

http://cindykallet.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Im-a-Mammal.pdf

And another classic, by Janet Russell:

"Breastfeeding Babies in the Park"

(Both links for lyrics only- well worth digging up a recording online or on a cd. No time now, but I can help with both.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:52 PM

Well my daughter uses a blanket but when a creep starts taking photos or trying to then grandpa has a conversation that involves some form of violence as I mentioned in my thread his cell phone didn't fair well

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:44 PM

Steve Shaw opined:

babies need to be fed, but it is not unreasonable to pay attention to the feelings of others in society.

Fair enough, as far as it goes.

For the record, Dave, Steve Shaw opined no such thing. That was Akenaton, a bloke whose views on this and on many other matters are as far removed from mine as can be. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:54 PM

I am amazed that people sit quiet through ethnic cleansing, forced famine, drone attacks and such things, and then fuss when a woman feeds a baby. That's just me, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Dear moderator

When you censor my posts, please remove the one that accidentally posted before I got anywhere with the typing as well.

After all, we can't have the boys and girls thinking I said something, can we?

I bet you can't think whose comments I questioned?

Sick puppy

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:11 AM

I was on the top deck of a bus the other day and spotted a young woman, with a long, diaphanous shawl around her shoulders, sat at a pavement cafe having a coffee. I suddenly realised that the shawl was to protect her 'modesty' and that under it she was breast feeding her baby. There was nothing, even vaguely, offensive about this sight - I thought that it was rather pleasing and she looked rather beautiful and elegant. My only slight concern was that I should respect her privacy and didn't want her to catch me staring - so looked away.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:11 AM

I agree with Troubadour that staff at dining establishments and waiting rooms etc can hardly complain 'on behalf' of others, assuming that these 'others' object to breastfeeding without actually asking them. It reminds me of the quite mad 'Winterval' substitute for Christmas, in an attempt not to offend Muslims, who stridently pointed out they weren't in the least offended anyway. The 2 song lyrics posted by maeve are very good, especially the point that 'page 3' ladies can bare all for sexual titillation (sorry!) but a simple feeding activity is found to be indecent in some way. Those that say the baby can wait, or the mother should go in a toilet, or slip a shawl over herself (shades of Muslim veils here) make me cross. Why the blazes should she? I must look up the exact wording of the law for England on all this, and see if it's the same as the excellent one of 2005 in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:37 AM

Don't see what all the stooshie is about, there are silly men and silly women in all sectors of society, all feminist issues are not "silly".

I think this particular one has been over hyped, and the true purpose of breast feeding ignored.
Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM

Humor/humour is more effective than stridency. Two singers I admire greatly for this approach are:

Cindy Kallet "I'm a Mammal" Lyrics here "I'm a Mammal" (listen here)

And Janet Russell    "Breastfeeding Baby in the Park" (lyrics) "Breastfeeding Baby in the Park" (listen here)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: maeve
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

Drat- thought my late night post with the song links hadn't taken- sorry for re-posting unnecessarily!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal."

When you are ten miles from home and said infant is shrieking at the top of its voice for a feed, it is PRECISELY about "getting nutrition into an infant".

What would you suggest?.......All nursing mothers to confine themselves to home, or use the insanitary facilities provided for disposal of bodily wastes?

Why is it that you always profess to have such altruistic and high minded motives for your most noxious contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

I don't think he needs to answer that. I could though...

Let's not upset the bigotry fairies though eh?

I am sitting in a cafe at the moment. A lady is feeding her baby. I don't see people sat with their arms folded trying to look offended though.

Most of society is decent you see. People who enjoy being offended or those who use such offence to justify their sad bitter existence don't tend to be in the majority.

On the flight back from Dublin on Thursday I was sat in front of a screaming baby. I wish the mother had breast fed then.....

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM

Credit where credit is due. Well done, ake. You have gone from

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

to

Don't see what all the stooshie is about, there are silly men and silly women in all sectors of society, all feminist issues are not "silly".

Within the course of this thread.

I do hope that you have genuinely learned that 'silly women' with 'feminist issues' is an attitude that should have died out years ago. I suspect though that you have just learned that you should not say these things in public. I hope that I am wrong.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket - PM
151.227.6.112
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Dear moderator . . .

Dear Musket, none of your posts were deleted or edited here. It must have gotten lost in the ether. You should save a copy before hitting send or compose them in another program.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:46 PM

I suspect though that you have just learned that you should not say these things in public.

Yes, one hopes so. But one thing's for sure: if he has learned it, he learned it from us, not a Mudcat moderator.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:11 PM

Dave, read my post again.
"I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss."

The meaning was obvious when I first posted it, there ARE silly women, just as there ARE silly men.....that does not signify that ALL women are silly.
I don't believe this should be turned into a "feminist" issue, but that does not signify that I think ALL feminist issues are silly.
Eliza's example, of a mass breast feed at a restaurant which asked a nursing mother to go into a private room, is silliness personified.

I have not changed my views in the slightest.

Do you honestly think that all "liberal" issues are sensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:39 PM

"Eliza's example, of a mass breast feed at a restaurant which asked a nursing mother to go into a private room, is silliness personified."

Almost as bad as a bunch of darkies lining up at a southern lunch counter where they know full well they're not wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:45 PM

He hasn't learned it, has he?

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:54 PM

"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child." ake

You know, ake, your exhortation reminds me that what is "silly" is a MAN telling WOMEN what a woman feels.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:11 PM

Hooray, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:26 PM

I guess that I have to admit that I have difficulty carrying on an intelligent discussion in the presence of a woman with bare breasts, whether she's breastfeeding or on the beach. Rapparee suggests "a light blanket goes a long way," and I agree. Diapers work just fine, too. I've rarely been in the presence of a breastfeeding woman who is exposed to the point where I feel uncomfortable, so I see this as kind of a non-issue. And whatever the case, I think it's horrible if a woman is made to feel she has to go to the loo to feed her child. That seems downright unsanitary.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:41 PM

The notion of a mass breast feed in a restaurant does seem rather to be taking the babies for granted. Babies like to feed when they like to feed, not according to the needs of a demo timetable. It's an individual thing.

When a restaurant needs teaching a lesson about such things, a picket makes more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:57 AM

SRS. I refer to the posts I have checked to see they exist, not the ones that occasionally get lost in the ether. Ditto whole threads I have started.

There are more than just you moderating, don't take it personally.

There's no problem feeling uncomfortable in the company of a feeding mother. You are what you are and are guided by your upbringing and experience.

The problem is when you project that uneasiness where it is neither appreciated nor helpful. In this case, it says more about the state of mind of the offended than the "liberal" actions of the mother. I didn't know that only feminists breast fed. You live and learn. (Or continue to vindicate earlier weighing up of certain people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM

Ebbie...now you're being a "silly woman". :0)

I was actually repeating the views of my wife, who breast fed our family.

I cannot believe that you were not aware of that, as I had made it clear earlier.....a bit of attempted point scoring perhaps?

However, I am magnanimous enough to accept an apology ...if offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:21 AM

It was not obvious to me, ake. And your explanation just sounds like you are trying to justify a long outdated attitude.

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

reads, to me, like you are saying that many (your word, not mine) women who do not like being told to leave or go and feed their child in the toilet are silly to complain. How many is 'many'? Is it a majority? A large minority? What? And there you go again with quotes. Why is it a "feminist" issue and not a feminist issue? It is an act that ONLY women can do so it can only ever be feminist. Without the quotes.


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 06:03 AM

I have looked up the law in England (as opposed to Scotland) which was enacted as late as 2010, and it forbids discrimination against any woman feeding her child in any place at all. So the law is supportive. But the women I read about were so embarrassed and humiliated that they hadn't the courage to tell the objectors to go and boil their heads, law or no law. I think it's brilliant and quite funny that a huge gang of feeders arrived and swamped the place, breasts a-waving! It's a peaceful and pertinent demonstration. I know that if I ever saw a lady being hassled like that, I'd speak up. I can be extremely fierce at times!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 01:01 PM

Dave , I wish you would concentrate, here is the quote by Ebbie.


"Its a two way bonding process, as well as a means of getting nutrition into an infant, as such it is private and personal.
I don't think anyone gets upset over the sight of a bare breast, it's more about the deeper emotions involved for mother and child." ake

Ebbie was obviously trying to imply that I, as a man, had no insight into the emotions of a nursing mother, but as I stated earlier, the emotional and bonding process was explained to me by my wife, who breast fed all our children.

Ebbie was just trying to be smart, but unfortunately she had obviously not been reading the thread.

BOO....Ebbie! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:37 PM

Fiona fed both our daughters in the back of (Anglican) Church, while a service was taking place, and nobody objected.
Mary would have done it for Jesus, and you can't get a much higher precedent than that!

These days we seem to be bombarded with images of women's breasts NOT being used for the purpose they were intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM

Dave , I wish you would concentrate, here is the quote by Ebbie.


You wish I would concentrate and then throw in a quote that we were not discussing? What on earth are you on about? It was YOUR retarded attitude that I was commenting on. Not any quote from anyone else. Stop trying to disguise the fact that you said many breastfeeding women were silly.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:06 PM

You should all be grateful they haven't taxed it yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:23 PM

Sorry Dave, I'm afraid you go to "Room 101".

You don't seem to be interested in discussion on any thread, you are taking lessons from EBBs   :0)

Just lurk around to you think you can spot some anomaly or weak spot in someone's argument, then jump in to score a (very)few points.
I won't waste my time, you don't even make sense any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM

Surely it's quite simple...If you are offended, look the other way, turn round, stick your head in the newspaper, put your hat over your eyes.It's what mammalian teats are for. It is one of the definitions of being a mammal. There should be a law which makes being offended the offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:21 PM

Years ago I was at a concert of two very famous singers, whom I won't name. I was seated beside the wife of a casual friend, who was on stage playing back up to them. This lady carried in her arms their recently born child. When the child began to fuss she quickly placed him at her breast. Sitting next to her I could not help but notice, and I will admit that it made me feel uncomfortable. However the baby quieted and I closed my eyes in respect and concentrated on the music. Quickly I realized that if I had any problem it was mine, not hers, and I was thankful to continue hearing a long anticipated performance. If the baby was soothed by both the breast and the music how dare I impose my discomfort on them on them!

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:16 PM

I remember years ago we were in a post office in Morocco, where we'd hitched down, and my wife was startled to see a mother in full hijab and all, only her eyes showing, but she was breastfeeding without the least embarrassment, and none of the people around her were the least embarrassed either. Let alone offended.

We've got a pretty odd culture in The West in some ways, not always good ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:21 PM

Ake, I still don't understand the basis for your statement:

I think many silly women turn this into a "feminist" issue, just to cause a fuss.

Why do you think this? Do you have any evidence? I'd be really interested to see it, if so, because as I said above, I've never come across it: breastfeeding mothers in my experience just want to be left alone to get on with the business of looking after their baby in the best way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

'Feminist issues' have done an enormous amount to bring women's lives up to the standard of men's. My mother and her generation had far more limited expectations for their lives than girls and women of today. I'm afraid sometimes protest groups and movements for change have to be strident and 'in your face' in order to bring injustice to light.
Regarding Muslim women, my husband's large extended family are all Sunni Muslims, and don't veil their faces; legs, and one's hair are covered. But bosoms are nothing at all, and yesterday my husband told me that if one is a passenger on a crowded bus and a lady has a screaming baby in her arms, the entire bus will shout at her, "Madame, give your baby the breast!" in Malinke. Women sit there with their infants, both breasts completely uncovered and nobody bats an eyelid. I think that's natural and rather lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:35 AM

Oh come on, let's not ALL be silly.

The owners of the restaurant are running a business, as such, they have to regard the views of all customers.

Are customers to be allowed to do exactly as they please regardless of the effect on other paying customers.
What if baby required to be changed and was fretful? Say the mother would not use a private room to change a wet nappie, as some sort of feminist protest. What would your views be on the rights and wrongs of that?

I will just say, lest there is any misunderstanding, a woman breastfeeding in my company would not offend me in the least, but a posse of politically inspired child abusers would.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

Ah, so it gets better. They are no longer silly women with feminist issues, but "politically inspired child abusers" instead. Keep digging, ake. You a doing a grand job of showing your true colours.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:25 AM

So, if a restaurant owner had a shopful of racist diners,and a black family walked in, he'd be quite within his rights to tell them to go away so as not to 'offend' his white customers??
And nobody here is talking about smelly nappies. I certainly wouldn't want baby poo wafting around me while I ate. Be reasonable.
Actually, a restaurant owner or any other proprietor would be breaking the law if he/she chased a nursing mum away. Even if the entire restaurant complained about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Breastfeeding In Public
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM

Hah! 100!