The English Guitar/Cittern

Subject: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:53 AM

When Portuguese accompany their fado songs (although they may sometimes use the Spanish guitar) they always use the Portuguese guitar - as I've questioned here, why aren't more English folk playing the English cittern..?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:04 AM

"(although they may sometimes use the Spanish guitar) they always use the Portuguese guitar"

That says it all.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:14 AM

Because there's no tradition of using it for the sort of English folksongs most often performed today, and it isn't all that flexible.

I have some Scottish music for it on my website. Again, it's not much like any Scottish music you'll hear these days. It would make an interesting break in a programme but not everybody could afford the investment of time to learn something that's basically a novelty.

It woul be fine (and historically accurate) for Arne's and Dibdin's patriotic songs. Good luck finding an audience for an evening of them.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

erm.. because it died out several hundred years ago? Perhaps the answer should be "because no one was playing them any more".

Incidentally, the modern 'cittern' (invented/resurrected by Stefan Sobell I believe) is different to historical citterns and isn't really the same instrument. Sounds amazing in the right hands though!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:20 AM

WAV: I take it you are a keen practitioner of le vice anglais, on similar patriotic grounds?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:22 AM

Sounds amazing in the right hands though!

Example. (I am not John's agent, just an admirer!)

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Dt
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:24 AM

from what I can make out the English guitar/Scottish guittar was a continental import popular for a period of time in the eighteenth century. I believe that it was more commonly called the German guitar on the continent. The cittern was widely dispersed throughout Europe. Which particular type of cittern did you have in mind? - DT

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

A while back, there was a series on the Beeb which had historians farming as of 17th century England; and, on one episode, they were visited by a period musician who played the English/Leicester pipes, the crumhorn, pipe and tabor, plus, with a feather plectrum, a 5 times 2 strung "English cittern" - which is what I had in mind, DT.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: ClaireBear
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

Actually I used to have one, but it proved rather peculiar to play though lovely to look at. Eventually I sold it to a friend who collects beautiful historic but less than playable instruments...now it's probably hanging on his wall next to the crwth.

Another issue was that it was made en England of some gorgeous but delicate blond wood which didn't take kindly to California's low-humidity summers. I am sure it is happier in North Carolina.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Deeps
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:07 AM

The English guitar actually originated in Germany, it was known in France as guittare allemande. The cittern is also, originally, from the continent. The modern cittern, bouzouki, mandola and octave mandolin family have no direct connection to the renaissance cittern or English guitar, rather they are developments of the Greek bouzouki (which has it's origins in the Arabic oud)or the mandolin and differ from each other only in scale length and the number of strings, the cittern having 10 and the others usually 8. You might as well ask why folk singers don't wear doublet and hose in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:14 AM

WAV, lead by example. Put the results on MySpace when you're ready.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Dt
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM

And if money is a problem try a waldzither. Its a type of German cittern four double courses and one single ( instead of the four double courses and two singles of the English guitar). It is tuned in a very similar fashion and they can be picked up on ebay relatively cheaply. I look forward to hearing your playing it. - Dt

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:31 AM

"When Portuguese accompany their fado songs (although they may sometimes use the Spanish guitar) they always use the Portuguese guitar"
Eh? How do you reconcile sometimes with always? I thought the terms contradicted each other.
Make up your mind.

Guitar was often used as a generic term for a plucked instrument. A Spanish guitar and a Portuguese one are very different beasts. Their use has NOTHING to do with the name. A couple of hundred years ago those instruments abounded and were used in low-dives, where the music that became fado evolved. Availalbility dictated their use, not patriotic notions.
Am I wrong, or is the Portuguese guitar not really used for other genres of Portuguese music?
Should the Portuguese be concerned because their instrument originated from English guitars?

Now, as for the English guitar, take a look at this:
http://www.standingstones.com/engguit.html

"This instrument is vastly different from the gut-strung guitar, and was actually a revival of the cittern. Although not the kind of instrument I have been concerned with in this book, a brief discussion of it is necessary due to the large amount of music for it from the mid-eighteenth century, the title pages of which all say, either for 'guitar or 'guittar'. Hence, unless one is able to distinguish which music is for the 'English' guitar and which is for the Spanish guitar, much confusion can result.

The English guitar was known in France as the cistre or guittare allemande (indicating its German origin), and in Italy as the cetra. Italian musicians apparently introduced and started the fashion for the instrument in England. The earliest music for it in England is Pasqualinide Marzi's Six sonatas for the cetra or Kitara ... (c. 1740; copy in London, British Library). It soon, however, became known simply as the 'guittar'."

So, an instrument of probable German origin, popularised by Italian musicians, should be a national instrument because of it's name?
Sorry, but the banjo, guitar, mandolin, Irish bouzouki and electric guitar have just as much claim to the title!!
Just look at the ammount of guitarists from England who pioneered and developed electric guitar playing.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:47 AM

Ah yes......Here you are again WalksAboutCrappingInPants.............Artificially screwing with tradition.

Why are they not used now? Because they are far too useful as wall decorations to be actually used. So are hundreds of other instruments that once were part of some tradition but for numerous reasons fell by the wayside.

Tradition is sometimes described as a river. As the river flows along some new little creeks and streams add to it and some things are swept off the banks. Other things get hung up in various eddys and pools and others are washed up onto the banks..............and every once in awhile some asshole wanders along the banks asking why some things are left behind.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:51 AM

As a player of a modern cittern I find this very interesting - it is, as other posters have said, a totally different instrument and the different tunings and playing styles allow a unique and personal approach to the music, which is one of the reasons I like it.

Paul Hathway makes a 10-string English Guitar, an 8-string Early Cittern and a 12-string Bell Cittern. His website also gives a brief background to each of these instruments:

www.paulhathway.com

BTW, I can recommend Paul's instruments; we have a mandolin and octave mando by him.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

Thanks, theleveller and Phil - Jez Lowe also plays a cittern (8 string, I think, from my memory of enjoying his Durham gig, last year).
To Greg Stephens, Claire Bear, and The Snail: I introduce the tune to English folk songs and hymns on a tenor-recorder/English flute; and I occasionally accompany myself on keyboards, as on, yes Snail, myspace. There is now way, however, that I'd have an English cittern mounted on a wall just for show - I'd surely have a go.
And further to my above mention of that period farming series on the Beeb, it was a 5 times 2 WIRE strung instrument...how about theleveller's and Paul Hathway's?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:23 AM

Thanks for.....what exactly WAV? Stating that your original point is incorrect?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

There is now way, however, that I'd have an English cittern mounted on a wall just for show - I'd surely have a go.

Just so WAV, have a go. Put in the practice and show us all how it's done and how good and English it is. You might start a trend.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

WAV, you answered your own point in your post of 18/6 05:42 pm referring to seeing it in a 17th century reenactment on TV.

Most people in the folk revival are trying to continue a tradition that was and is alive (albeit much reduced) in the 20th and 21st centuries. We use instruments appropriate to this period.

The English guitar/cittern is appropriate for 17 century reenactments but its not appropriate now. There was a brief fad for early music instruments in the 1960s and 70s but it rightly dropped out of fashion.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:35 AM

To IE - it was thanks for the links/examples of people making and playing citterns; and I stand by my opening post.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

If I had an English cittern on me, Snail, I'd try plucking (with a feather?!) the very same top-line melodies that I sing - which is all I do on the keyboards (play and sing just the melody).
To HJ - it was English and Germans who brought the recorder back in the early 20th century...why not English folkie string-players, at this early part of the 21st century, reviving the English cittern..?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

Sorry - I meant to say the recorder was brought back as a folk instrument.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:51 AM

It would be a backwards step!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

WalkaboutsVerse

If I had an English cittern on me

I think we may have stumbled on the answer to your orginal question here WAV.

why aren't more English folk playing the English cittern..?

For exactly the same reason as you. THEY HAVEN'T GOT ONE!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

WAV.........would you be able to start a thread without "English" in the title, it makes me shudder every time I see your name attached to one?

Not that I'm ashamed of being English.....just not comfortable with some of your ideas of "Englishness" .

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:18 AM

It doesn't sound very different from a Puerto Rican cuatro, though the tuning pushes it in a different musical direction. The cuatro has a place in country and western music, and works for bluegrass where a sound midway between guitar and mandolin has a blending effect (I've done it).

Insofar as their sounds do differ, I prefer the cuatro, and the cuatro handles key changes better, but I could imagine a C&W outfit having a use for the English guitar.

Trawl through late 18th century songsheets and you can see what the English guitar was actually used for in its heyday. Not much of it is stuff a present-day audience (either from the early music or folk constituencies) would pay to hear.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:18 AM

Am I being ignored, WAV? Are there no valid points in my post?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Yes Snail: we need more "big names" to put their guitar aside for an English cittern (I have tried before), start a revival, and then they will become more accessible/more of a FOLK instrument - the same could be said of the (very sorry Banjiman) English concertina.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

It never WAS much of a folk instrument. Anyway, why swap one instrument for another which functions and sounds differently? Anyway, I'd rather hear an oud over a cittern anyday of the week.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:35 AM

I have a Brazilian 'Viola', which is a guitar-shaped ten string instrument with the same scale length as a cittern, and the body is similar in size to a three-quarter 'Spanish' guitar. As I couldn't see the point of the 'official' stringing, which is similar to a 12-string guitar without the bass, I strung it as a cittern. After all, I already have 6 and 12-string guitars.

Boy do I confuse people with it!!

Okay, someone will ask why I bought it in the first place... well, I didn't - it was a gift, so it was only polite to be seen to use it.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:36 AM

Yes Snail: we need more "big names" to put their guitar aside for an English cittern

But you're a Big Name, WalkaboutsVerse, (or at least a long one). You've won competitions and things. Give us the lead we need.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

Sounds amazing in the right hands though!

I know it's old but...
this reminded me of the latino act they had at the bulverton last August... they came down to jam in the session in the tent after and was playing any object (frying pan, chair, bottles) like they were designed for the purpose... it was truly amazing.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

WAV-in a purely academic sense, whoever was the first person who made a piece of wood, and strung it with string or what have you is the person whom we have to thank for all string instruments. Everything-mandolin, banjo,oud, guitar, EVERYTHING derives from that invention. So purely speaking, your concept of an English cittern is flawed because no one in England created (to quote from a Fairport song) the wood and the wire. Oh and by the way, on another thread I asked you repeatedly where your recorder is actually made? While we're at it, how about your keyboard?

I also guess you have abandoned your English folk awards thread.
Coming up next week folks will be all the other bullet points from WAV on his "website" so be prepared.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM

Hmm, a tricky question, WAV. Do you think it's:

a) because they fell out of use hundreds of years ago, have played next to no role in the evolution of English traditional music as we know it, their stringing/ tuning system is quite restrictive, and nowadays we have a choice of much better and more suitable instruments.

or

b) because they were forcibly suppressed by PC multi-culturalist England-haters who wanted to stamp on our native culture by replacing all instruments with "English" in their names with foreign ones.

I know which answer I'd choose, and I suspect everyone with perhaps one exception would. People will carry on playing guitars, mandolins, citterns, ouds, bouzoukis and banjos, regardless of what they're called or what historical links to certain nations they might have.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

Thanks for.....what exactly WAV? Stating that your original point is incorrect?

Thanks for answering, IE. (I know, I'm no better.) Thanks for paying him attention and treating his opinion as if it's worth responding to. It's all he wants.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

Sorry - I meant to say the recorder was brought back as a folk instrument

WAV - Do never listen to anything anyone says to you? I pointed out some time ago that in now way was the recorder brought back as a folk instrument; such wilful wishfulness on your part is enough to make Arnold Dolmetsch turn in his grave I'm sure!

Here's that message again, I suggest you read it this time:

It's interesting to note that many people seem unaware of the recorder's status as a revived instrument, assuming that it has always been there & is, therefore, modern, rather than early, along with the various other instruments Dolmetsch (et al) revived, with whatever degrees of success. The instrument we know today is the Baroque recorder, which is to say the instrument as it was when it reached its highest development as an essential component of the baroque orchestral tradition before being replaced by the transverse flute. I would disagree, therefore, that it was revived as folk instrument (in the strictest sense) however.

The recorder caught on in musical education because it was an inexpensive instrument with fully chromatic capabilities (unlike the penny whistle) and was therefore the ideal primer for kids who wanted to learn a proper wind instrument at a later stage. Despite this, thanks to the sterling work of the late David Munrow and Dr Rene Clemencic and many others, the recorder enjoys the status of serious virtuoso instrument in the world of early classical music, but it's never taken root in folk music, with one or two notable exceptions. Neil Smith, for example, one of the finest of the Northumbrian Pipers is also an accomplished recorder player. Also of note is the playing of Terry Wincott of the Amazing Blondel whose idiosyncratic style of recorder playing (florid with chiffs & trills) certainly gave the impression of how the recorder might once have sounded in a Merry Englande of yore.

The recorder developed from the simple whistle flute, with which it had a parallel history; we find more developed recorder type instruments in medieval times, but it's not until the wide-bore consort instruments of the Renaissance that the instrument called the recorder comes into being, later refined into the Baroque recorder most commonly manufactured today, though the earlier types are still available, albeit at a price! Have a look at The Early Music Shop for some choice examples - a few earlier sorts too, such as the gemshorn as well as some lovely Baroque recorders too...

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:43 AM

There are a number of people playing recorder at all levels in the folk revival, but I'm not aware of any recorder players from the actual English tradition - if there were I'd be interested to learn of them.

This puts it alongside the (Spanish) guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, etc as an instrument of the modern revival rather than a proper English folk instrument. It's got no more authenticity than the other instruments WAV would prefer to see replaced by good English instruments.

Is an electronic keyboard English, by the way?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:50 AM

Banjiman wrote: "WAV.........would you be able to start a thread without "English" in the title"

I'm having fun playing "WAV Bingo": I look at the list of titles in Mudcat and try to guess which ones have been started by WAV. So far I've a 100% hit rate.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:55 AM

Learn to play the damned instrument then get back to us!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM

"This puts it alongside the (Spanish) guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, etc as an instrument of the modern revival rather than a proper English folk instrument."

I'm intrigued to know what you class as a proper English folk instrument. The only one that I can think of is the concertina, though that may have been developed for other purposes.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

I'm having fun playing "WAV Bingo"

Did you miss one?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Deeps
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

WAV: Jez wasn't playing a cittern if it only had eight strings, both the renaissance cittern and the modern cittern have ten strings set up in five pairs (courses). What Jez does play is either a short scale bouzouki or octave mandolin, the instrument can be either depending on the way the maker/player chooses to describe it. The modern cittern came via Stefan Sobell who needed a name for the 10 stringed instrument he had just made (based on a cross between his Portugese guitarra and his Martin archtop guitar) and happened across the cittern in a book on Renaissance instruments.

The prevalence of the bouzouki in todays folk traditions is often laid at the door of Johnny Moynihan of Sweeny's Men who brought one to Ireland after a trip to Greece. Much as I like the bouzouki, cittern and octave mandolin, they are in truth mongrel instruments and to try and claim any of them as a racially pure English instrument is, frankly, laughable.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

"and to try and claim any of them as a racially pure English instrument is, frankly, laughable"

Why would you want to (nice though most of them can be in the right hands)?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

Yes, Sedayne, I remember, and agree with, that post, but would still add that it was brought back mainly as a student AND folk instrument, plus that we now have two styles of fingering/holes on the Baroque recorder - German and English. Also, the inexpensive tenor I play most of the time is moulded out of ABS polymer.
To Howard - I accept that when I play my electronic keyboard, or a piano at a pub, in self-accompaniment I am, as you suggest, moving away a bit from E. trad. music...but then I only play the top-line melody (which is E. trad.), and singing around the piano, of course, is a strong English tradition in itself. Also, re: "WAV Bingo", if you goto the BS section, you'll find an "All Things English" thread NOT started by me, but Phil...although I couldn't resist posting on it (Sedayne - you'll find stotties get another guernsey there, too!)
Back to strings: there was an interesting interview, on the last Travelling Folk (BBC Scotland), of Judy Collins by Archie Fisher that mentioned the "great folk scare" and "the epidemic" of having to play some kind of stringed instrument - even though I may never play it, DS, I do like the sound of the English cittern, and do hope the list of players grows.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:43 PM

Well safe to say I won't be among the practioners. I tend to go for more adventurous instruments (as I stated somewhere else, it'll very likely be the melodeon next), the cittern does tend to have a very limited range...now that sounds familiar! :-D

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: mattkeen
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:50 PM

Sedayne
Thanks for repeating the recorder information, it was an absolute joy to read

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:52 PM

WAV's got a point. I think the only way to play/accompany English folk music is with a pig's bladder, a couple of birch branches and an elder twig hollowed out, holes drilled in it and a sparrow shoved up one end which tweets the top line melody until the RSPCA find out and ban you from approaching with 50 (megalithic) yards of small brown finches.

Which is why I'll be sticking to my Irish Bouzouki made by a chap in Norfolk.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

I'm sorry, but WAV's verbatim answers again just leave me baffled. So I'm just going to quote random nonsense from Monty Python as a reply.

Lemon Curry?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

a random thought, The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds :-D

and random nonsense? Henry Crun, Minnie Bannister, Major Denis Bloodnok, curried eggs. :-D

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM

Fatang, Fatang ole' biscuit barrel

Pickled Herring?