We Need a Prefix for Obituaries

Subject: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:27 PM

I don't know the formal way to request this, so I am putting it up here--

What with all the deaths lately, and all the related discussion threads, I think we ought to have a prefix such as OBIT-- for the discussion, reminisces, obsequies, and a posting of the real obituary from whatever paper or news service--it would be nice if it were a thread that could stay up for a week or so, so that we wouldn't have the situation that occurred with John Lee Hooker, namely that there was a thread, it disappeared after a day or so, and then someone who had heard about his death had to post a question--

People think it is morbid, I know, to make a fuss about obituaries, but they are a really important way to note important lives--here, with musicians, songwriters, and performers, they also tend to be personally very influential lives to many of us--

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Pene Azul
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM

Good idea, M. Ted. I'm only making changes to the live site (aside from MP&I) when I'm at Mudcat Central, so I'll try to add that next time I'm there, which should be some time this month.

Thanks,
Jeff

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 10:11 PM

Just to be awkward:

1) There is no consistent usage of the existing prefixis.
2) What happens when say an actor dies - does he get and OBIT or a BS OBIT?
3) I doubt that anyone who does not know how use this forum to look backward 2 or 3 days as was the case with JLH is likely to understand the use of the OBIT prefix.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the suggestion - I for one could make use of it if it terms were agreed, and its usage was understood and applied consistently.

Jon

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Pene Azul
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 10:24 PM

I see your point, Jon. Obviously BS and OBIT don't go together. Perhaps we could try to use the OBIT for music related obituaries and just leave it off for others. I think it is a good suggestion for a prefix. You are quite right about the existing prefixes too. Perhaps we could also add radio buttons for prefixes for the filter. Please discuss...

Jeff

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 10:24 PM

Most people who have used a do-it-yourself prefix have used RIP.

Are you suggesting a thread that would be permanentized with just the notice of someone's passing as each post, plus a link to a thread where it can be discussed or funeral details added?

I always feel a responsibility to refresh an RIP thread about to fall off the page, because we do have a lot of active members who are not heere daily, and it seems sad to have only a few posts where people are taking note of a passing.

Would it also be helpful if I issued an e-mail to all Mudcatters in my address book when there is a new obituary posted? I do something similar when a prayer request appears in a thread and the person involved has OK'd my issuing it, and in my line of work as a pastor's wife I am an old hand at delivering such news. On ocasion the e-mail goes beyond the prayer chain to my whole Mudcatter address book (Spaw news, for instance.) What I generally do is make the minimal statement required to notify folks to come see the thread, and then I give the URL. (I seldom comment further unless it is a prayer request specifically for the prayer chain.) I use BCC so addresses are not spread about without people's permission.

No one I have ever contacted in this fashion has objected, and in fact there has been nothing but appreciation. So this would be a piece of cake if people would want it done.

~Susan

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM

OK, I'll try Jeff:

Firstly I'd like to deal with the current situation. This is one of the rare points where I seem to disagree with what I believe to be Mudcat policy. I do recognise that most regular posters do make an effort to attach the BS prefix and use other prefixes but I feel the "optional" policy leaves a number of loopholes.

My belief is that to get the best out of the facility, we need to try to encourage people to use this facility and to have clearly agreed terms of usage in the FAQ.

I do believe that your idea of adding the prefix to the filter system would a) be valuable and b) encourage people to use the system.

While on the filters and prefexis, how feasible would it be to include a NOT selector, e.g. NOT BS would exclude all threads with no BS prefix?

I know all of this sounds rigid in the MC way of going about things but this is one where I feel a little control/discipline could help everyone if we get it right.

Jon

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Pene Azul
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:03 PM

Jon, I think consistent control and discipline might be too much to ask for in such an open forum, but perhaps such controls might be useful for some. I think using brain and eyeballs should prove sufficient for most users to scan for prominent threads, but the prefixes could make the process simpler. A "not" selector would be quite feasible. I'll analyze your suggestions and those of the other volunteers and members and try to formulate a solution.

Thanks,
Jeff

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:21 PM

I think the designation OBIT doesn't need to be qualified for people who are or are not connected to music, the fact that a death is worthy note is enough--I didn't think it was necessary for there to be permathread, just for it to hang around for a week or even a month (I notice that the New York Times Website now includes all the recent obits, as well as the new ones each day)--

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:35 PM

in some forums...(notably in 'live' chat places), there are 'ignore' buttons next to all names, and checking it will cause that 'person' to not be displayed in the forum...I have wished for something of that nature here when I am in the mood to read ONLY music threads.......but I would imagine that would require everyone to choose a 'category' for their posts...and still would not prevent silly thread creep and realted problems.

It may be best to not change too much.....this is an amazing setup as it is!

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:47 PM

I can only say that I seldom use the drop down menu for thread titles, but I do try to use BS, Add, etc. in my thread title. I also tend not to post obits because I usually figure someone else will be beat me to it. I don't really care about RIP, OBIT, or Has Died.....makes no diff to me.

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:33 AM

I think either OBIT, or RIP would be appropriate for anyone. Why differentiate between musicans and actors?

DougR

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:39 AM

Well, I guess I must be the biggest objector to requests for more categories. I'd like to see fewer.

• I'd like to see ADD only on the messages that actually contribute lyrics (or tunes/airs/melodies), and not on threads.
• I'd like to see just one REQ designation, and let the requestor specify what he/she wants beyond that. Americans and European/Australians have different understanding of the work "tune," so there's confusion. The fact that we have a "chords request" label encourages people to ask for chords when they might not really need them - and chords have always been a hassle here. If they want chords, let 'em specify.
• Nobody seems to know what kind of help the HELP label asks for, so I think it should be dropped.
• For other categories, people can make up any designation they want. If they use it consistently and it catches on enough for other people to start using it, THEN maybe we could add it to the dropdown menu. If you think OBIT is a good category, start using it, and see if it catches on. We'll be glad to add OBIT to existing threads if somebody points out the threads to us.

Obituaries of people important to music certainly wouldn't fall into the "BS" category. I can't see a need to send an e-mail when somebody dies - I would assume the obituary would be for the same purposes as obituaries in the newspaper.
But no, I don't think we should add categories until people try them out and prove that they work.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:00 AM

I'm with Joe on this one. I don't think ANY of the prefixes are being used consistently, and the list itself is not particularly user-friendly, since a number of the categories are specifically related to the Digital Tradition. Setting rules for the Mudcant is like...well, like herding cats! You're never going to get the lumpers, the splitters, the rule-bound, the hide-bound, and the hell-bound in this place to agree about anything. Why not dump ALL the prefixes for a while and see what happens? Or just pick one or two with very specific meanings, make those meanings clear (i.e., "Use this if you are submitting a song to the Digital Tradition", and "Use this if you are looking for information about a song--but try looking in the Digital Tradition first"), and then see what categories people tend to use themselves, if any.

And anybody who doesn't agree with this....

....is probably OK.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 11:44 AM

I asked about the OBIT designation because it would make it easy to search, and it would also be easy to pick them out--

I think that people would be more likely to use OBIT as a designation, even if they were disinclined to any other designations, because all people are used to the fact that there are all sorts of special markers related to death, and are more comfortable when they are used--

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Here is how I use them:

BS is for just talking about stuff, and I *substitute* the term NonMusic if it's NonMusic BS, as a courtesy to members who like to skip the nonmusic threads. I don't equate BS with NonMusic, but I gather some do. For instance, discussions about the merits/lack thereof of Eminem would go under BS, but not NonMusic.

I use LyrAdd I'm contributing lyrics, and I'll do a separate post with LyrAdd if my lyrics are added into a thread about something that doesn't specify Lyrics Add. I do that as a courtesy to the folks actually getting the lyrics into the DT, and I do mention/link to the original thread. I don't see how you could put LyrAdd on just a posting within a thread.

I would agree with REQ being what is used for requesting lyrics or tunes or chords or whatever anybody wants to call the musical information stuff. I use LyrReq mostly because I can't read music, but I can read words, so I would never ask for chords or tunes, other than asking if X is sung to the tune of Y. But the English language problem is a point well taken.

I see no need to add any other prefixes; the obit threads vary, but so do the dead people and the members who cared about them. You could put something in the Newcomers thread about if posting about a death, please use RIP (which is shorter than OBIT and more close to the reality, which is usually a discussion of the contributions of the dearly departed, not merely an obituary). But some say "passed" and some say "died" and some say other things, the only one I recommend against is Passed, as so few people think that it means Died.

And I can't think of any other prefixes I've needed...

Subject: Mrrrzy Look Here
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM

Hi, Mrr - look at the title of this message. There's a "Subject" box in the "reply" section of every thread. The default wording in the subject title is the thread title, but you can change it to anything you want. I'd like to see people use ADD just in the messages that have lyrics or tunes. I'd like to see just a 3 or 4-letter word as the prefix because that leaves more room for specific information.

Ted, your idea of using OBIT is a good one, and I propose that we start using it right now. We are not required to use the tags Max has supplies on the menu in the "Create New Thread" page - we can type in any label we want. If you send me thread numbers of obituary threads you know of, I'll rename them and add the OBIT designation. I think I prefer OBIT. For one thing, it will come up more accurately in searches. There are many words that have the three letter combination "RIP," but few that have "OBIT."

Let's start now. If anyone knows of Obituary threads, post their URLs or links to them in this thread, and well start renaming them. In this thread, we'll put a one-winged harvesting birdie ^ to show I've renamed the thread you've pointed out. Jeri, Jon, and Pene - please help on this project if you can. Please also rename the first message in every thread so it includes OBIT - most of our search engines do not search thread titles.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:35 PM

I think Mrrzy may have just given an example of why the BS prefix has problems - different people have different definitions. If you're just talking about music, musicians, musical events, etc, chances are Joe or other thread title editors will swoop in and remove the "BS" from the thread title.

People often don't use the prefixes, and when they do, they don't use them the way other people think they should. I'll vote for anything which will be immediately understandable (and useful) to all, including first-time visitors.

People don't use "BS" because it sounds derogatory. It's fine for someone who doesn't take themself or their topic too seriously. It's meant to be a sort of self-effacement, tongue-in-cheek thing, and some people are easily insulted, and their pride is more important to them that someone else's irritation at accidentally clicking on something they don't want to read. Additionally, there are some non-music topics which are simply too serious for it to be used. I'm sorry, but if something horrible has happened to someone, I can't justify using a "BS" prefix.

The short version:
I'm pretty much with Joe. Prefixes "ADD" and "REQ," and something to designate non-music threads. BS could be replaced by "NON-MUSIC" (long), "NM" - not immediately evident what it is. ???

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

How about Clefdef for musos and ex-act for lovies?

Jock

Subject: RE: We Need a Prefix for Obituaries
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:47 PM

I've added OBIT to all the "RIP" threads, because the RIP's were relatively easy to find. Now, Jon and you other techie people, might you be able to come up with a category filter we can add to the Site Map - PermaThread page? [Ideally, the OBIT filter should filter out "Jacobite" ;-) ]
There is a lot of valuable information that has been posted on Mudcat over the years. I've been working on cross-indexing threads when I can. Take a look at what I did just now with John Hartford (click). It was a relatively easy task. Pene designed a thread renaming utility that lets me rename threads quite efficiently, so I renamed all the RIP threads in short order.
In editing the thread names, I noticed that several people posted links to newspaper obituaries, and some of these links have expired. If at all possible, post both a link and the text of newspaper information (and be sure to include line breaks). I have deleted the "BS" designation from all the obituary threads I found - I think that's appropriate. My understanding of BS is that it should be for threads that are just shooting the breeze, idle chatter.
-Joe Offer-