Political Fallout At House Concert

Subject: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Today, at the Borderline Folk Music Club of Rockland we hosted Magpie, the folk duo of Greg Artzner & Terry Leonino.

Anyone who is familiar with Magpie's music knows that they are not friends of George W. or the Republican Party.

In the middle of the first set, when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up and approached me asking for their money back. They said they came to hear "folk music" and not "hateful political rhetoric". They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a mis-representation. They came for music and not politics.

The 2 ladies walked out but I refused to refund their money for 2 reasons.

a) If you go to a theatre and walk out in the middle because you do not like the play, or in this case the concert artist, you are not entitled to a refund.

b) Admission fees to a house concert is a "suggested donation" for the artist. Our club does not make a profit or retain any of the proceeds collected. All monies collected and then some go to the performer. The club can not authorize a refund of money that is not legally theirs. The money is collected on behalf of the the performers and only they can refund THEIR money.

Being that the ladies walked out in the middle of the performance they could not at that time speak with the performers. They sent me an e-mail asking that I forward it to the performers and to our club's treasurer, the implication being that they are ready to pursue this matter in small claims court for a refund of $20 per person.

I would welcome the thoughts of my fellow Mudcatters on this matter with any advice that you can give me.

SOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Give them the damn money back.

They came to hear music, not political hate speech.

I would go to small claims court if I paid to see a folk concert and got a rap show.

Next time put a warning in the adverts.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM

I dissagree with "pdq." As folksingers of "folk music", they present their music as they see it. "Folk music" is reflective of the folks. If an attendee didn't like the music ... tough luck. If they thought they deserved their money returned because the performers were very poor performers ... then that's a very different matter. Just my 2$ worth. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

A view from across the pond,
Apart from the idyllic (trad) songs, it seems that most modern songs are likely to contain some political comment.
If I was to go to a gig like yours SOL, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear something political.
I'd be astonished, however, if I heard a song in praise of George Bush or Margaret Thatcher!!

Folk song has always been a vehicle for anti-establishment views.
Sometimes it's the only way for little people to have a voice.
I say, let them sue.

You can always quote that line from your National Anthem in your defence.
"The Home of the Brave, and the Land of the Free"!!!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:54 PM

As long as the shoe is on your foot and you get to do the kicking, you seem to think that it is OK.

Imagine if ol' Sol went to a "folk concert" a couple of Arabs started singing about wiping Israel off the map or praised Hitler as a hero for starting the ovens. He would not want to support that crap and demand his money back.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

Amazing! I find myself in agreement with PDQ. I'm leaving now, to try ice skating in Hell.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

Actually pdq.
I'd be interested to hear such views, but would reserve my right not to agree with them. (And almost certainly wouldn't, but thats not the point, is it)
BTW, do you know of any such artists, who perform said material?
Only asking.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM

Skates here too..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Beer
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:12 PM

I am not familiar with magpie's music but if I was going to go and spend an evening listening to music at a coffee house or other type concert I would first find out something about the artist that was performing. In this case they should not get their money back. Whatever that amount would have been. However if they just came off the street or decided to take a stroll and spotted your event and went in. Then I would probably give them something back. Problem here is that neither of my observations has a defenit answer.

Small claims court!   Wait and see if they file. I bet they don't.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM

I'm surprised to find myself agreeing (more or less) with pdq, given his recent contributions on the overtly political threads, but - you should have just smiled and given them their money back in the first place, and said, "Hope you enjoy the next concert a little more". Now you've gotten yourself into a silly contest of wills, where everyone's pride is at stake, and everyone's competing to see who can be the most self-righteous. If you let this go on, there could be a whole lot of ridiculous publicity, and a whole lot of posturing, and the two sides will line up and throw stones at each other, and you will have done your own little part to add to the polarization of the political life of your society. Furthermore, some busybody may discover that you've been breaking some obscure bylaw with your house concerts ...

If you're really concerned about saving face, just give them half the money back, since they were there for half the concert. It'll be a lame, partial victory for both parties ...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:16 PM

Well, it's obviously a question of what they actually said. It's well and good to sit here, pdq, and talk about the eradication of Israel or the praise of Hitler...but I know these performers, and I know they didn't say anything of the sort. They said something along the lines of "we think Bush has done some stupid, illegal and immoral things." I can't imagine them venturing into "hate speech" at all.

One thing that bugs me is when people try to claim that anything they disagree with is "hate speech." Pdq only fans the flames with ludicrous references to supporting Hitler. It's like saying: "Well, what if the performers said we should all eat babies? Should the audience get its money back THEN?"

The answer is NO. The artists are ARTISTS, and the audience members paid because they suspected they might like the art. They were wrong. They wasted their money. It happens to everyone. You don't get your money back for every movie you don't like or every concert you don't like or every play you don't like. They should grow up.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:20 PM

I would think that if it went to small -- and this is really small--claims court, you would win.

Anybody who knows anything about folk music--and they should, since they thought they were going to a folk concert--should realize, as noted earlier, that protest is often a feature. Suppose they had been bankers, and Magpie had sung "Pretty Boy Floyd"-- "...some with a fountain pen". They might well not have liked that either.

So it boils down to:

1) Are you willing to waste the time it would take in small claims court--if they in fact pursue it that far?

2) Is their goodwill--at least salvaging a bit of it--worth the $40 to you?   Particularly are they likely to be able to poison the well, so future house concerts don't do that well? I'd think that unlikely--since mostly future attendees will know what they are likely to get.
d

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Cool Beans
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

I'd have refunded the money, just to be rid of patrons who sound like they're too dumb for folk music. I remember a concert in Central Park where the Rev. F.D. Kirpatrick was singing "Abraham, Martin and John" and added a verse that went "Has anybody here seen the P.L.O.?" I got up and walked out. It was a free concert (with others on the bill) but I wouldn't have asked for a refund if I'd paid; I'm all for his right to sing whatever he wants and mine not to listen. I never took F.D. Kirpatrick seriously after that but I doubt that he noticed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:39 PM

Magpie is known as a very political duo. Even when they do traditional folk music, which is the bulk of their repertoire, it often has a strong political flavor -- anti-war songs, union songs, civil rights songs, etc. In that way they are very much like Kim & Reggie Harris, with whom they often appear.

That having been said, I would ask if the publicity said anything about the fact they do political music? Not even die-hard folkies are familiar with every group, and you certainly should not expect that the general public would be.

Regardless of your answer, I would still give the two women their money back. That's because I'm old fashioned enough to believe "the customer is always right," even when she is clearly wrong. If you want to keep your club in business, the worst thing possible is to have people pissed off at you, especially in a small town. And while the women probably won't go to small claims court, they certainly will bad mouth you, and that's much worse. $40 is a small price to pay to salvage whatever good will you can. If it had to come out of your own pocket, so be it. But I think Magpie (Toni and Greg) are mature enough to have swallowed the loss themselves if they had to. They choose to sing controversial material, and that's part of the price I am sure they are willing to pay.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:40 PM

Anybody could gripe about anything, doesn't have to be political for someone to complain and walk out. They could complain about the lack of air conditioning, or the water wasn't cold, or the seats were uncomfortable, or the guitars were out of tune, or someone was singing off key. Skip the politics, they paid a donation, either give it half back, or nothing.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:43 PM

Sounds like the good will has already gone bye-bye.

$40 isn't worth the fight & strain, pick your battle more carefully & give 'em back the money, the fight will cost a lot more in the long run.

Barry

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:05 AM

Actually ... wouldn't it be GREAT FUN to see this law suit wind it's way through the american court system and wind up in the Supreme Court ... just imagine the songs that it would create! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: mg
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM

I would give them the money back, particuarly if they talked a lot about poltiics or if I had failed to make it pretty clear what kind of music it would be. There are all sorts of people I won't pay to see. There are free things, like at camps, that I sit in the back so I can easily walk out. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:24 AM

So ... if you attend a concert of folk music, is there an unwritten agreement that you must be pleased polically? bob

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:50 AM

I say screw them, it's their fault for not doing the research on the duo to see if they might like the music.

BTW what sort of folk music were they looking for? Puff the Magic Dragon?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:04 AM

Well, I'm not a US lawyer but their case looks pretty hopeless to me and I am amazed that anyone should think they have a RIGHT to have it back. You may want to bounce it by PM of InOBU or Heric who I think are qualified in the USA. My train of thought goes: -

1. You are not in business so "consumer rights" do not come into play.
2. The was no contract term or representation as to the content of the music. Indeed it sounds as if some of it mught even have been "folk" music and you all know my views on what that means.
3. There was inded no contract with you. The money was a "donation" for the artists.
4. Accordingly it seems likely to me that the money was therefore held on trust by you for the artists and it would be a breach of trust for you to give it back. If the two people wanted the money back they should have asked the beneficial owners ie the artists, and I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall.

I can think of an argument that might harm you, but I will PM it to you in case any of the opponents of free speech here might be in a position to pass it on to the objectionable departees.


I have to say I despise people like your objectors.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:11 AM

"They came to hear music, not political hate speech."
Invariably people who complain about political songs are objecting to ones which express ideas contrary to their own. Wonder if they'd have demanded their money back if the songs had been in favour of Dubya (answers on a postcard please).
What your 2 ladies are really saying is "How dare you express views that I don't agree with", in which case - sod 'em; doesn't sound as if you are going to lose two regular customers.
Politics has been a part of songmaking as long as people have been making songs - why change things to suit a couple of rednecks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:18 AM

PS,
Don't know Magpie, but it's more than a little comforting to learn that somebody in the US has the balls to speak out against what's happening there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM

Richard has summed up the legal position and it seems clear an strong. I seem to remember that we are always on the slippery slope ans the thin end of the wedge is always present but it would we very difficult to run events like this one or most other folk events if everybody was able to renegotiate the door fee half way through the evening.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:19 AM

I certainly agree with the walkers out.
I get totally pissed off with people who, on the basis of a little musical talent, feel free to impose their political ideologies on an unsuspecting audience.
Why do I go to folk clubs, and not to political meetings?
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions on that one.

JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM

Oh, they're free to walk. Just not to their money back. I hope they keep walking.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

Just wondering how these insulated punters would have reacted to a concert from "dirty folk rock" performer Jessica Delfino. I review I've just read describes her as "best known for her quirky tunes about female genitalia", but her themes also deal with becoming famous, hating everyone around and a "delightfully weird" countering of the US Catholic League.

Obviously, everything associated with living is political. Were they expecting Puff The Magic Dragon, someone asks. That too, deals with political issues important to some . . . like cruelty to mythical species and discrimination against Class C drug users.

If you"don't like" politics, don't go to arts events. Indeed, you may as well stop living.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Zen
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM

...started singing about wiping Israel off the map or praised Hitler as a hero for starting the ovens

I have booked Magpie a couple of time when I ran a club here in the UK and know their music well. I think Greg and Terry would be shocked to have their music compared with these statements.

A great deal of folk music is, was and probably always will be about anti-establishment views. I've had some customers grumble about Paul Metsers environmental stance but they could not complain that the music was not of a high standard, as is Magpies.

No, these individuals should not be given their money back for the reasons given by Rabbi-Sol. You do not get your money back if you go to a film and do not like it.

If the performance was way below par.. maybe. For content of the music, no. Otherwise we risk to lose freedom of expression.

Zen

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

Giving them their money back is admitting that what you have done in having the group was wrong - and it's putting your booking policy (and your freedom of speech) into the hands of a couple of 'good ol' girls'.
Fascinating to see what a question like this drags out of the woodwork.
Not sure whether John Mackenzie is dictating what should be performed or commenting on the standard one is valid - the other definitely isn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: topical tom
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:49 AM

Give them their money back? No way! That would create a precedent whereby ,if for any reason an audience member were dissatisfied with the performance, he or she would get their money back!!It was a folk performance by a duo who are known for political comment.For God's sake, find out about the performer(s) before you purchase a ticket!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Colin Randall
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:12 AM

Rabbi-Sol was right in principle, arguably wrong on style but not so wrong that it matters much.

You wouldn't get your money back if you walked out on finding the music itself not to your taste. Anyone going to a folk concert and expecting not to have right-wing views challenged, if views are expressed at all, clearly doesn't get out much.

Thinking back to my days as a folk club organiser, I cannot recall with certainty whether anyone ever demanded a refund. It was a long time ago.

But so early in a gig, I'd have been inclined to take the Meself approach quoted above: ie "you should have just smiled and given them their money back in the first place, and said, "Hope you enjoy the next concert a little more"."

If they'd gone on whingeing about it, that would have merited a sarcastic putdown

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Both are equally valid Jim, to clarify my comments. However the only thing any artiste changed by using one vehicle as a means of introducing another, was my good opinion of them.
I won't mention names, but there have been performers I liked, who put me right off them, by declaring support for something with which disagree.
Then again as one who thinks politics is a personal matter, and who doesn't wear his political beliefs on his sleeve. Then I guess I would say that wouldn't I?
JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

I can amuse myself imagining what Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Julie Felix, Joan Baez, or, come to that, Ewan MacColl or Bert Lloyd would have said.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

Give 'em the money back and tell them that they are no longer welcome to your house.

Anyone impolite enough to cause a fuss during an artiste's set really shouldn't be allowed back to that particular venue. Let them have their pyhrric victory, tainted by the knowledge that there will be less music for them in the future.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

I'd like to know exactly what was said or sung, so that I could guage exactly how much the walkers-out overreacted. Overly sensitive types overreact to just about anything. I wouldn't be so sure that this isn't more about intolerance.

Be that as it may, I wouldn't refund except to make them get lost, or I might refund only part of their donation or whatever. Not that they deserve it, just to keep the peace. Frankly, it might be a badge of honour to have some folks, or folks of a particular kind, walk out. I've never asked for a refund and I've walked out of shows figuring the risk was mine...buyer beware.

Next time add "no refunds" to the fine print.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

Imagine that you gave a concert at which the performers expressed strong right-wing views, and nearly the entire audience (folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals) wanted their money back. What would you do?

Whatever you decide, it should be consistent with what you would do if the sentiments expressed were elsewhere on the political spectrum, if you want to claim intellectual, as well as fiscal, honesty.

Peter

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

My initial reaction was that you should just tell them to b****r off. Then I thought, what would I do if I inadvertently went to a concert that had right-wing content? Hmmm....this free speech business has a nasty habit of turning round and biting you on the arse.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

I host house concerts and would have given them their money back just to preserve goodwill. I would also have made it clear that they had a responsibility to do their homework - it was no secret that the music would be political. Would Tom Paxton's Tinky Winky have sent them packing?

They would not be welcome back.
Mary

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM

We're back to pdq's point way up top....The old saw about whose ox is being gored hits the mark. That said, Sinsull puts it well. "Here's my goodwill gesture. Do your homework next time and don't let the door hit you in the ass."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

Could happen.

There's this BNP councillor in Yorkshire who holds fundraising barbecues in aid of his vile party. He fancies himself as a singer songwriter and regales the local fascists with pleasant ditties of how nice the English countryside would be if it weren't for all the immigrants.

But you'd have the sense not to go in the first place, still less contribute to BNP coffers, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SunrayFC
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM

In the end if you are offering ENTERTAINMENT you have to acknowledge that the audience will have a wide set of opinions.

Keep it entertaining.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

To put it another way, then:

In the end if you are suffering ENTERTAINMENT you have to acknowledge that the performers will have a wide set of opinions.


;-)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

"folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"

I'm always amused when the word "liberals" is used by the right-wing as sone kind of an insult. And then they have the arrogance to add 'knee-jerk' as if having liberal views is ill-considered instead of a deeply-felt commitment. I wonder if they'd object to being referred to as dyed in the wool authoritarians?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

It's fairly common in the classical music scene for people to storm out of concerts in indignation because they're playing That Dissonant Modern Stuff.

If those prats could get their money back and thereby disrupt the concert for free there'd be a lot more of them doing it. So they never get refunds.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: bankley
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM

ya charge $20 to get in....and $50 to leave before the end of the 1st set...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

Richard sums up the legal issues and Sinsull sums up good will.

One needs to consider both when dealing with house concert attendees who are disappointed and request their money back.

I am surprised that Magpie would trigger such a reaction. They do compose and sing some hard-hitting political songs but always deliver them in perfect harmony and impeccable instrumentation. But I do generally line up with them on their politics.

However, I do recall attending an excellent concert (with no political songs) but was somewhat shocked when in later causal conversation the singer-songwriter acknowledged voting for George W. Bush two times in a row. I certainly did not request my money back at the time but I do think about that with regard to whether I would or would not attend his next concert. If he had sung a right-wing political song, I might have walked out in protest but I certainly would not have requested my money back. I do think house concert attendees bear some responsibility for doing their homework.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

I do find the idea that we should be doing homework and research before attending a concert rather curious. I think our audiences would be even smaller if we only admitted those who have done their homework ... Maybe we should ask them to show it at the door?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Charley - that concert was hosted at Deborah Coward's home. And you would not have gotten your money back. You paid for his music and you got it. His politics in no way appeared in his performance. If you choose to boycott any music delivered by someone with different political views from yours, you will miss out on some great music.

The gentleman in question has well thought out reasons for his support of Bush. I respect his right to disagree with me. The suggestion that an artist has to not only present only material in keeping with your political views as well to vote for your candidate is outrageous.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Hear hear Mary - the only reason not to attend a concert, as far as I'm concerned, is that I either don't like that type of music or that the performer is so goddamned awful that I won't waste my time, let alone my money, supporting them. Any other reason is, IMO, ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

Since the money was 'legally' not Sol's, but belonged to the performers, I'd have offered to pass their names to Magpie....and I 'think', that if I were in Greg & Terry's position, I'd have sent them back half of it, just to make a point.
(what point? why, that they learned a valuble lesson from the time they spent there - that folk music often includes topical and protest songs, and that education is worth something....*grin*!)(you don't get a refund in college if you don't like the teacher's point of view)

I have seen Magpie several times...(back to even when there were 3 members)...and they are good folks and good musicians...but I don't go out of my way anymore, simply because I DO know what I'll hear and it's like 'preaching to the choir' for me. I don't mind topical songs, but prefer a program with a different balance for my $$$.

No obvious & simple answer to this one......

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:26 AM

That's really shocking, Sol, and I think you did the right thing. By walking out in the middle of the first set, rather than politely waiting until the intermission, those "protesters" were making their own political statement. If they had wanted to discuss the issues with the performers, they should have stayed and discussed it with them, rather than asking you to forward emails asking for their money.

Let them sue. Sounds like they may have even gone with that intention in the first place, in this election campaign climate. They can't possibly win IMHO, and it will bring much publicity to your house concert series.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mark Ross
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

I recently heard rumors that some festivals include a clause in the contract prohibiting the performer from being "overtly political(?)".
any one else out there have any confirmation of this?

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Wonder how one defines the nebulous term of "overly political"? Again, I bring up Tinky Winky - funny, witty,satirical and political.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

I am 100% with Richard Bridge on this. Let's just vary the context slightly to see if the "protester's" position stands:

a) What if the performer was Vin Garbutt and he sang his pro-life song; would any pro-choicers have the right to ask for their money back? Definitely not!

b) What if the performer was Tom Robinson and he sang a pro-gay song; would any protesters have the right for a refund? Definitely not!

c) What if the performer was Pete Morton and he sang his song about Arab and Israeli children? Same answer!

d) What if it was a Christian band singing a creationist song? Pro-Darwinists walking out would be entitled to diddly-squat!

An artist is entitled to - nay, responsible for - stating his/her views. A spectator/audient (is there such a word?) is entitled to disagree, but not to ask for money back on the basis of such disagreement. There was no misrepresentation: folk was promised, and folk was delivered. The rest is huffiness, posturing and intolerance.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:25 AM

I think Sol did the right thing. Otherwise, where to do you draw the line? Should it cost you money every time your club doesn't meet some audience member's personal agenda? It's a public event - you can never cater to all tastes, political or otherwise. Whatever happened to freedom of expression? In any case, you advertised Magpie and you delivered Magpie.

I can't see that they have any grounds for a lawsuit either. (Did they specifically threaten one?) Their argument appears to run that they paid for "folk music" and felt they didn't get "folk music." Sol writes: They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a misrepresentation - but who is misrepresenting what? That argument would work just as well in the opposite direction.

If they do take it to court, it would be fun to see the venerable lawyers formally arguing that time-honoured hoary question:

[all together now, one-two-three:]

WHAT IS FOLK MUSIC ?????

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

I'd have given their money back and let the performers know about it.
I'm no fan of Bush and usually poke fun at him once in an evening but that's it.
They are there to entertain not to insult the views of others.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

Folk music has always been this way. Folkies expect it. I would have been tempted to say, "When did your lack of knowledge of folk music become my problem"?

However, they did not stay for the whole thing, then complain, so I would refund their money IF I KNEW HOW MUCH THEY DONATED.

Charlie, I know who you are talking about, and while I disagree with that performer's politics, I am a true Liberal, and therefore able to overlook his faults. Now, if his music sucked, I would not attend his gigs.In fact, I wonder how a conservative can make such great music! LOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM


I'm always amused when the word "liberals" is used by the right-wing as sone kind of an insult.

I'm always amused when the Left assumes I'm right-wing because I put down knee-jerk liberals. I'm also amused when the Right assumes I'm left-wing because I put down knee-jerk conservatives.

Forming an opinion on each issue on its merits, rather than defining yourself as liberal or conservative and then adhering to the liberal or conservative position on each issue, without really thinking about it, appears to be the one unforgivable sin in political thought.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

As far as "doing homework" is concerned, how much trouble is it to find the artists' website and suss out what you're considering paying to see, before you actually go? I googled "Magpie folk music" and it's the first hit (www.magpiemusic.com). Their biog page* makes absolutely no bones about where they stand, and the internet is a public statement if ever there was one. Those dingbats have no one to blame except themselves. Would they argue with a cop if he told them "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

---
* With the power of their delivery, Magpie is well known for their performances of hard-hitting topical songs. They are well-known as regular performers on Phil Ochs Song Nights, organized by Phil's sister, Sonny Ochs, since 1984. Politically, their viewpoint has been shaped by their life experiences. Greg began to play music in the early sixties as a direct result of the Civil Rights Movement. His father worked for the National Urban League, and members of the family became involved in local action in the Movement. Terry also began singing at that time, and spent many of her childhood summers with her mother's family in the deep south where she witnessed the cruelty of racism and the power of the Movement. She also was a witness to the shootings at Kent State on May 4th, 1970 when National Guard troops fired into a group of students protesting the war in Vietnam. Terry and Greg continue to reflect these experiences in their own work as they frequently raise their voices in support of the ongoing struggles for civil rights, freedom, justice, and peace...

In 1994, the Cultural Center for Social Change produced a 2 CD set of songs of the Civil Rights movement to commemorate the 30th anniversary of the Mississippi Freedom Summer Project entitled Freedom is a Constant Struggle, and Magpie was honored with an invitation to participate... Through CCSC, Terry and Greg have performed in concert with SNCC Freedom Singers... singing with them and on their own, songs of the Civil Rights Movement and other songs of struggle... Two of [these concerts] have been recorded and released on CDs entitled The Long Walk to Freedom and Songs of Dissent Live.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

"Forming an opinion on each issue on its merits, rather than defining yourself as liberal or conservative and then adhering to the liberal or conservative position on each issue, without really thinking about it, appears to be the one unforgivable sin in political thought."

Ah, I see. So that means defining people with statements like "folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"
is a well thought-out and considered position, is it? Hmmm...interesting.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Regardless of political beliefs and whether or not the audience has done enough research before choosing to attend.... let's keep it simple.
Someone got offended and left.
Just give them their money back and move on.
In fact, if you know who they are, a wee bunch of flowers would go a long way towards keeping your valued customers happy.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

Ah, I see. So that means defining people with statements like "folkies being, for the most part, knee-jerk liberals"
is a well thought-out and considered position, is it? Hmmm...interesting.

Ayup. Based on nearly 50 years of empirical observation (assuming I've been observing folkies since I became one in the beginning of the 60s.) Not "defining" people, though. Just stating what I've noticed. Note the "...for the most part..."

P.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: fretless
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

I wouldnt go so far as to send them flowers, but offering the refund would probably be reasonable when you look at it from your interest rather than in their's. Now you're faced with the possiblity of a wasted day or at least hours in Small Claims, and as my old teacher used to say, "Never wrestle with a pig --you both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

"Someone got offended and left.
Just give them their money back and move on."

Sounds like an open invitation to freeloaders, if you ask me... Also, I'm not sure I'd want to live in a society where everytime someone decided something had offended them, we had to compensate them. I also don't like the sound of a society where everytime someone didn't get their own way they went mewling to the lawcourts like some great big crybaby.

Lets not support the abdication of one's personal responsibilty to behave like an adult, eh?

And let's not forget that everything being exactly how you want it all the time is a pure stroke of luck, not a right!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

Have you seen the hatred, and vituperative posts that result when someone mentions Maggie Thatcher on Mudcat?

JM

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

It costs money to run a club and money for artists to travel to gigs, and nobody's getting fat on it. I can't see any reason to cut into your resources everytime someone gets offended.

So how about: Just refuse to give them their money back and move on -

People DO bear a responsibility to know what it is they're attending, and the info was freely available. They weren't forced to go. No one owes them diddly-squat if they didn't like it.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

There's gotta be a SONG in here somewhere? bob

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

As I recall, nobody has ever asked Pete Seeger or Steve Earle for their money back.
Or Woody.

This incident just shows how divided we are as a nation.

It is important to say in the advertisements of the concert that it might contain political
commentary that some would find offensive. (In short, if you are Republican, stay home).

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

"They said they came to hear "folk music" and not "hateful political rhetoric". They claimed that my advertisement for a folk music concert was a mis-representation. They came for music and not politics. "


Magpie's politics are well known, and even for those who disagree with their stance, I would have a hard time calling it "hateful".   The message that they give is one of unity, not division.

Unless you have a set policy that is published in some fashion, I think the rules would be determined by local laws.

One BIG item that you need to consider - you are a "house" concert. That means a private home and unless your organization has some sort of charter in the state of New York, the individual who owns the home is probably the one who would be sued.

Regardless of being right or wrong, you need to consider the potential problems of unwanted attention can bring to your series - and be prepared to deal with it. Some towns do not take kindly to people hosting concerts for pay in a private residence. Would other legal implications arise if this were brought to light in small claims court?    You could win the battle and lose the war.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

It seems to me that this thread has now gone past the point where people read what was written earlier. The Dogs at Festivals thread is a good example of this.

If you feel like posting please read all the other posts first because lots of considered opinions have been posted and some really stupid stuff has also been posted.

If after reading the lot you have something original to say OK go ahead other wise don't bother.

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

What I want to know is: where the hell did these two old biddies come from? And, is there any reason to suspect that they'd ever return for a less political evening of "real" folk music, and therefore be worth placating?

Political differences are one thing, but to characterize balladry in the tradition of Phil Ochs as "hateful" is a bit extreme. And, certainly, anyone should be ready to hear some kind of left-ish sentiment from any American act characterized as "folk." (Whatever the merits, or lack thereof, of using the phrase "knee-jerk liberals," the more likely political orientation of the typical US folkie is not a well-kept secret.)

That said, I would probably have given them their damn refund (or half, if I were thinking fast enough), just to hush them up and get them the hell out of the house as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Just be nice!
They came for entertainment and in their opinions, didn't get it.
That's fine.
The hurt feelings would probably have ended immediately had they just received their money back.
As for folkies being free loaders?
Well I shouldn't generalize I suppose so I'll leave it alone.
Choose your battles, Sol.

So here's a suggestion.
The next time that you hire a controversial entertainer, inform him/her that the donations will be collected after the performance.
It's not the first time that I've seen attendance numbers drop for several months because a performer crossed the line.
These two ladies responded immediately by not sticking around.
Others may just not show up for a while.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I had a run-in with some people running a folk club who refused to hire Robin & Linda Williams or Ginny Hawker & Tracy Schwarz because of the gospel content in some of their music. Inspired me to resign from the board, that did...

Yes, divided we are as a nation.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Nothing anyone does or says about Thatcher is bad enough. But if she were a singer and I walked out of her concert, I wouldn't be entitled to my money back. Mind you I'd have been more likely to do a Chumbawamba. I might well leave if Vin Garbutt did that song, too, but again I would not be entitled to my money back. I might actually go to see David Hannam out of curiosity, he's a perfectly workmanlike singer and player (better than me, anyway) even if the content of what I've heard him do or seen written down is mostly vile. One of the functions of art is to shock enough to cause thought (and it's the thought bit that is usually missing from the lunatic right).

In common US parlance (not academic parlance) although it is in my view wrong to put it so, the words "folk music" seem to include a "tradition" (it's a bit short really to be a tradition, but, hey, it's a young country) of contemporary protest songs of rural, urban, and even suburban life. Sounds like it did what it said on the tin.

Country music has some on the other end of the bargepole, but not all the time.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

There is one thing we have Margaret Thatcher to thank for and that is how the political song movement woke up to the devastating harm she and her ilk were inflicting on what was left of our industries and hard-won democratic rights and thus began the fightback against the complacent morass of comedians and wifty-wafty neo-hippy singer songwriters our so-called f*lk-scene had descended into. All in life is political, as I said before. But anyone who was part of the benefit gigs and agit-prop theatre centred around the miners' strike, Rock Against Racism and ANL concerts, the picket lines for basic working rights, Greenham Common, the anti-poll tax and welfare cuts rallies of the late 70s and 80s cannot but be aware of how the power of song played some part in salvaging some scraps of community spirit.

Of course, no-one was obliged to take part in these activities just as no-one is bludgeoned into attending a house concert today. But this does not negate the necessity of investigating content. I wonder how many people turned up in Victoria or Brockwell Parks 30 years ago expecting bland top ten renditions and a Tory clone intoning how they had never had it so good (again)? No, what they got was Tony Benn and Billy Bragg and Benjamin Zephaniah and Tariq Ali and Polly Styrene and The Clash, many of whom are still at it today. Because they are still oh so needed against such wimpish, blinkered pink-specism.

And just to include our transatlantic readership, last time I was in Washington Square it was still going on there too. Where it's even more deperately needed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

I've seen Magpie a number of times & helped produce a Phil Ochs song night they participated in. I've also presented a goodly number of house concerts over the years. Sinsull's summation hits the mark very well, yet Bill D's feelings express another side of it for me. (they are good folks and good musicians...I don't go out of my way anymore, ...it's like 'preaching to the choir' for me. I ...prefer a program with a different balance for my $$$.)

If someone truly has no clue about what a performer is about - and with houseconcerts you DO sometimes get that curious first timer to folk music- and they found it too politcal for their taste, it was impolite for them to exit the way they did, yet eminently understandable to me. By giving them a refund (full or part) you show good will. By not giving a refund you're giving the impression that their indignation was an insult to you. You decide what your motivation is - preaching to the choir, as Bill D says, or growing an audience for folk music in general.

There are those of us who are passionate about folk music in many forms, avid listeners, promoters, performers, who at times do NOT want to listen to something saturated with the politics of the day. Call me an occasional escapist, and I'll not deny it. There are a number of performers I love, listen to, count as friends or close accquaintances. who are mainly political issue performers. I respect their dedication, I support their work, but not every freaking minute of every freaking day: it's wearisome. Issue this, issue that, this horror, that horror, the environment falling apart,and on and on.

Enough.

Now... I'm not saying Magpie does this - I'm saying there are times when folks want some sweet old love songs, or he-done-her-wrong-200 years-ago songs, or some social wrong that's centuries out of date songs, or silly songs, or songs of joy. Then if you put one sock-you in-the-eye contemporary issue song in that mix you get a number of things:
1. Variety - political activism isn't the ONLY thing folk music is about
2. Contrast - by standing out from the rest of the set in subject matter one idea may have greater impact.
3. Context - The uneducated find that folk music DOES address issues that have been with us for a long time (infidelity, murder, incest, infanticide) as well as recent ones.
4. Recovery time - One of the great things about groups who do sets of tunes between songs is you've got time to think about the last song before they whack you over the head again.
(5. Humor as a way to get a political point across is much more likely to succeed in persuading those who don't see as you do. Issue-oriented performers have a sad knack of being, or appearing, humorless)

And in a "let's not make a federal case out of this" vein - several areas have had trouble with their municipal governments over the issue of house concerts, (the Pittsburgh area comes to mind) so giving a quick refund seems a good way to calm the waters.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: topical tom
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

Should we placate these kind of people and, God forbid, perhaps, in returning their money, persuade them to come back? Do we really need them and want them so much?I say, let 'em walk and,hopefully, not return.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

I just came back from playing a weekend festival, and read through this thread.

IMO, Sol, the answer lies in your target audience. The fact that these two walked out doesn't indicate to me that it is going to cost you much in good will. The overwhelming majority of folkies share the sentiments, to one degree or another, of groups like Magpie. And the audience does have an obligation to spend their money based on good information. That information is easily obtainable for Magpie. I would pass the information on to Magpie and forget about it. Those that think YOU ought to refund are wrong. You don't have the money, Magpie does.

That performer Charlie refers to is a pretty good friend of mine. His reasons for his views are well thought out. And in a large percentage of issues we find ourselves in fierce agreement. I have great respect for him, as he doesn't duck or hide how he feels, nor does he wear it on his sleeve. He is a principled and honorable person. IMO, he is wrong about GWB, but he thinks I am wrong too. And a better musician and entertainer is hard to find.

These ladies weren't mislead under any definition of folk music I know of. Would they have wanted their money back if they just didn't like the performers? If so, would you have given it to them? The answer to both is no. Move on.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

"Those that think YOU ought to refund are wrong."

It is not that easy.   I do not think that the patrons deserve a refund, but it might be a case of Sol not being able to afford to win. Please give careful consideration to the house concert aspect. Our friends on the other side of the pond have had very little experience, and even in this country the rules are different from state to state and town to town.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

If you're worried about these customers badmouthing the concert series just imagine how they are going to sound to their friends : Y'know the other night Mary and I went to this folk music concert and the performers sang songs full of "political rhetoric". They are going to sound like complete idiots. I'd forward to complaints to the performers and see how they want to handle it. If it were me I'd send them some autographed CD's.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Seems to me that most likely those people DID know what to expect and wanted to make a statement about it. (That's what the walk-outs at classical concerts that feature modern music are up to). They WANTED to be outraged.

Fair enough but there's no reason why they should be given their outrage fix for free.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

No money back! The customers "came for music" and they got music! As others have said here, the customers could have done a bit of research into the act they were going to listen to -- googling "Magpie", calling the folk club and inquiring, or even just asking the person with the cash-box before they handed their money over. Since they apparently did not do this, it's their own tough luck. Satisfaction is NOT guaranteed at a house concert!

The ladies' threat of a trip to small claims court is, I think, an empty one. They probably already know they would lose (and would they then have to pay Sol's court costs?). They're just bluffing -- don't give in to them, Sol!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:29 PM

No court costs in small claims even in the UK.

In the US costs are rare except where there are statutory costs eg infringment of a registered copyright.

I understand that Rabbi-Sol has carefully arranged his house concerts so that they are 100% legal.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

As we dont know which songs WERE performed , or which songs created the 'impression' of 'political Rhetoric' we are NOT in a position to give ANY judgemnt on the rights or wrongs of the matter . However , if information on the performers IS freely available , MY personal inclination would be to tell the Complainants to Go Hang !

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

I have to agree with Jim Lad's post at 15 Sep 08 - 12:07 p.m., although I don't think I would go as far as flowers. I might include with the refund of their money a small lecture, something in the nature of, "I'm sorry if you were offended, but it is the nature of folk music that, along with love songs, occupational songs, and ballads, it sometimes deals with social and political themes. Good day, ladies."

Nor would I go so far as to grab them by the scruff of their necks and frog-march them out the door, but the urge to do so would probably make itself felt.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:38 PM

When I hear songs I don't like at a show, I don't demand my money back. I just leave. I don't expect the whole rest of the world to make me happy all the time, and I accept that life occassionally does not go the way I would most want it to and a show sometimes does not meet my expectations.

For instance, I've paid for a couple of movies that I walked out of. I did not go to the wicket and demand my money back, though, I simply left. Period.

It strikes me as a bit pompous and self-centered to go demanding one's money back because some piece of entertainment turned out to be not to one's taste....kind of childish, in fact.

It's simply an attempt to prove someone else "wrong" for the satisfaction of one's own ego. They'd have loved it if the tone of the political comments had similarly attacked someone or something they were against...so it wasn't the hatefullness or the attitude that bothered them as far as I can see, just the opinion.

Well, some people have different opinions from you. That's life. If you don't like the show, leave.

You will know better next time.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

"Ayup. Based on nearly 50 years of empirical observation (assuming I've been observing folkies since I became one in the beginning of the 60s.) Not "defining" people, though. Just stating what I've noticed. Note the "...for the most part..." "

"Liberal" (except where folk music itself is concerned), I would agree with; "knee-jerk", in my 45 years of experience, I would, for the most part, emphatically reject.

The problem with sweeping statement is that they don't take into account nuances.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Ever sat in an audience while some eejit ridicules your religious or political beliefs?
I have.
Pretty difficult to get out of without betraying your own personal beliefs.
In the interest of fairness to all, why not hire an act which chooses to poke fun at Obama?
The customers were dissatisfied.
Apologize and move on regardless of the fact that I've just discovered that I'm going to be a Granda!
Whooooeeeeee!



Ahem!
Sorry.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

I think it depends on the ratio of songs to prattle. If there were endless diatribes and very little music, I would certainly want my money back if it were advertised as folk music. I would not expect folk music to only be political music. Not one bit. I would expect to hear songs about milkmaids and shipwrecks and horse wrangling perhaps. Which all could have political overtones....I hate people yacking at me to tell the truth. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:12 PM

It depends how much you want to 'make nice'. My gut instinct is that you probably don't WANT these people back. I also think you'd win in small claims court because you supplied what you said you would (it was for a 'donation' anyway) and they didn't like it. It wasn't inferior, it was simply not to their taste.

It's like someone ordering the 'special of the day' at a restaurant, then complaining that it contains garlic. They could have asked somebody before ordering, if they had known what the special was going to be before they got there, they could have looked up a recipe. They ordered it and took their chances, and they'll still have to pay.

It probably can be proven that these musicians don't make a secret of the political content of their shows.
You can probably testify that the women made reservations and donated money without asking about possible political content.
They bought a pig in a poke. If they do take it to court, I think you'll win and they're going to walk out looking a little less than bright. I also wouldn't think it would affect your reputation... not in any negative sense anyway.

If you want them to come back, you can refund the money and make nice. I can't see why you'd want them back.

Personally, I can deal with some politics, more if the political thrust agrees with mine. I walk out when I feel I'm being preached at, in ANY direction. If find myself not enjoying listening to musicians performing their typical act and I could have known about this beforehand, I would not later advertise my lack of clue by going to court for $20.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

In spite of all the good points that people have made, I would still give the women back their $40 just to keep them from bad mouthing your club -- and to give you cover in case they still do.

By the way, I meant to write Terry, not Toni, since Magpie is Terry Leonino and Greg Artzner. As people have already said, their music is often poitical, but it is never hateful. And it is always beautifully done, both vocally and instrumentally. If you have never heard of them, you should at least check out their website at www.magpiemusic.com/.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

So these ladies objected to hearing political songs at a folk event!
What were they expecting, hunting songs, whaling songs, murder ballads, songs of mysogeny, rape, arson, disasters, family enmity, incest, bawdry, etc.? You put out warnings about politics you gotta include this lot as well.

I'm with the majority here. Let the judge have a chuckle and show up these over-sensitive farts for what they are.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

It might be fun to re-tell this story before concerts in the future. Warn folks that they can't expect a refund if they - gasp - hear an idea in a song that they don't like. Forewarned is forearmed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

Isn't it up to the band if they want to refund, since, as you say, the collection was made for them not for you? What does the band say? Have you asked them yet?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Maryrrf
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

There is really no right or wrong answer on this one, and there are good arguments on either side. Once at our concert series we had a duo that was booked for traditional (we advertise ourselves as presenting only traditional folk music and make it clear to performers what we are looking for) but towards the end they included a very preachy, very clumsy rap style protest song that I didn't like at all and didn't feel was appropriate for the venue. And basically I agreed with their politics - but the song itself was just too 'in your face' - so much so that it put me off. A couple of young kids who think they know it all - "they've seen the mountaintop" and are enlightening all of the rest of us...that type of thing. It didn't go over well. Nobody asked for their money back though, and for the most part they got traditional music at the concert.

I think what I would do is reply to the email, copying Magpie, explaining that the suggested donation goes 100% to the band, and it is up to them whether or not they want to send a refund. Let Magpie respond as they see fit.

The women do sound like idiots !

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Zen
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

I expressed my views earlier in the thread... knowing Magpie and their music and how they express themselves... which some posters clearly don't.

Woody Guthrie must be laughing (or crying) in his grave at some of the arguments put forward as to why these two fools should get their money back.

What were they expecting, hunting songs, whaling songs, murder ballads, songs of mysogeny, rape, arson, disasters, family enmity, incest, bawdry, etc.? You put out warnings about politics you gotta include this lot as well.

Steve Gardham puts it well given the subject matter of most folk songs. Hell, we won't be able to sing anything soon at this rate.


Zen

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Suffet
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Greetings:

Did the 1965 Newport Folk Festival give refunds to all the fans who came to hear Bob Dylan the folk singer and got Bob Dylan the rock & roller? I'm afraid not! You pays yer money an' you takes yer chances. That's the rule. Always was and always will be.

Now if the performers failed to perform, that's another matter. A long time ago, my wife and I went to hear Dave Van Ronk at a club in New York where there was a $5 per person cover charge in addition to a minimum you had to spend on food or drinks. DVR was apparently not feeling well, and he looked like death warmed over. He did one song, excused himself to go to the john, came back and did only two more songs, and then packed it in for the night. We asked for a refund, and the club gave us back our $10 cover, but we still turned up paying for the two overpriced drinks.

From what Sol tells us, Magpie delivered what they said they would. If those ladies had a complaint, they should have taken it up with the performers during the break.

End of story. Case closed.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Here's something to think about.

Suppose it was not a complaint about the music or the politics. If one of these woman became ill, would you have given them a refund?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

This may seem a paradox but two of my passions are folk music and stock car racing. I am no right wing redneck though as I am a long time socialist who spent years as a labour leader.
jaqui said "Give 'em the money back and tell them that they are no longer welcome to your house." and I agree with the first part, but I would offer them a chance to return.
A few years ago I was at a race at Langley Speedway in Virginia. The race was rained out before the start of the main event. The ticket clearly stated "No cash refund; rain date admission only."
However, I was there visiting family and was to return to Canada before the raindate, so that was of no use to me. I explained to a lady at the box office that I could not return. She said that the track owner was in the office in back and she would ask him about a refund. He came out and was most generous in refunding my money although he had every legal right not to do so. I have returned to that track many times since and my admission total over the years has returned his refund tenfold. If his goodwill had not been there I probably have never gone back. Goodwill is more important in the long run.
As many of you Catters know I am not shy about expressing my views about right wing arseholes like Bush or his Canadian clone Harper. For the most part people on this forum express similar views but we are "preaching to the converted." If we really want to get a message through to others we have to make them think objectivly and to do so first we have to make them listen to our viewpoint. If they feel insulted they will close their mind and any hope of conversion will be lost. I would offer them first a "raindate" free future admission to an event of their choosing. If they refused I would give them a refund with a smile and still invite them back. What may be gained with kindness will often exceed the value of a small admission price.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

Dude, they are sick already.

I'm going to forego the 100 for this, I fear (way too slow) but I also wish that people from the USA who happen to have politics somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun would look up the socio-economic meaning of the word "liberal".

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

Yo! got that 100 anyway!!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

I wouldn't apologize or refund money..

It's hard telling why the ladies got a bee in their nethers and it's for them to deal with..not the host.

What I would do is send a nice, friendly note (mentioning that I represent myself--not speaking for the band) and a couple tickets..marked "disgruntled patron comp" so whomever is at the door can know to keep an eye out in case disgruntlement is a favorite hobby of whomever uses the tickets.
If the tickets aren't used, the gesture has been made. Who knows, one of the ladies might like to come back without a cranky sidekick.

If you're going to eat $40, it seems sensible to do it on your own terms rather than as response/reward to bratty behavior.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

Well Sol?
You told the story, asked a question and so far, nothing more from you.
Seems to me that there are a few different viewpoints here.
Some say "Tough luck, ladies"
others "Keep the customer satisfied"
and then there's some kind of "Liberal" debate going on that has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand.
So maybe you could step in and just explain why you refused to give these two particular ladies their own donations back at this particular show.
You did know who you were hiring, right?
You knew that they were Anti Bush, right?
You warned everyone, right?
They gave a donation and changed their minds.
Beats me why you chose to respond the way you did.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

> "In the middle of the first set, when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up and approached me asking for their money back"

This does not suggest to me that Sol knew beforehand they were anti-Bush.

> "The 2 ladies walked out but I refused to refund their money for 2 reasons..."
suggests to me that Sol has already explained why. What's the need to step in and explain all over again?

I think Melissa's idea is brilliant.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

"What may be gained with kindness will often exceed the value of a small admission price. "

Well put Sandy. The title of this thread is misleading - Sol described a "political fallout" but the question he asked really has nothing to do with politics - it is a question of how you run your business.

I'm reminded of a story about the late Dave Van Ronk. Dave was appearing on Oscar Brand's radio show.   Oscar was playing a piece sung by Burl Ives. Dave told Oscar he should not be playing Ives because of what he did during the McCarthy era. Dave felt that Ives should not be played on a folk radio show.   Oscar simply told Dave - "those of us on the left do not resort to blacklisting".

The reason I mention that story is because if we truly learn the definition of "liberal" as Richard suggests, we need to put it to use on both sides of the policital spectrum.   While I would be upset at someone leaving because they did not agree with a view expressed on the "stage", I would hope that my response falls in line with the way I want the "business" to be run.   Are the policies consistent?   Can I afford the increased attention from local authorities should this get to small claims court, or an angry letter to the editor in a local paper?

I was not there, but I would guess that those two biddies completely missed the points that Magpie makes on stage. If they could not be made to understand that, it is their loss. I would just consider the future opportunities for other artists - you want to make sure that stage is there so that others views as well as artistic expression have an opportunity to be shared.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM

I kind of suspect that Magpie would have no truck with pandering to the pair of Palins.

It's sort of "Goodnight, and may your God go with you"

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:10 PM

I agree in theory with pdq. But in reality, I am so used to enjoying the music (and company) of those who have a different political opinion than I, that I'm just sort of numb to the political rants of entertainers. Maybe it should have mattered more to me.

If I'd have been pissed off about anything at the concert, it might have had to do with the comparative amount of time spent between playing music and political rants. After all, I came for the music.

Shut up and play already.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

There is one thing one must always bear in mind when one plays a song that attacks some political or social viewpoint: it will upset certain people.

This sometimes comes as a startling surprise to the performer, since one is usually cruising along in one's own accustomed groove and expecting the audience to relate to it...but the rule in life is dead simple: if you openly attack something, you are going to get someone's back up when you do, so be prepared for a counterattack.

I was quite surprised, for instance, one time when I played a song that has a whole lot of different social comment in it, but I made some off-the-cuff satirical comments linking General Norman Schwarzkopf to one of the verses (a critical one). So this guy who'd been listening to a lot of my stuff during the evening and liking it came over afterward quite annoyed and said that he had served personally under General Schwarzkopf and considered him to be a great man.

I said, "Really? Okay, well, tell me about it." So we talked for a bit and he told me about some of his experiences fighting in the Gulf War. In other words, I gave him a chance to tell me his side of the story, and I showed interest in what he had to say. When he was done, I said, "Well, I can't argue with your personal experiences. You've known the man, and I haven't, so I'm sorry that my comments upset you."

And that, basically was the end of it. It could have been a nasty situation if I'd decided to fight with him about it and try to prove him "wrong", but I didn't, because what use would it serve? Everyone's got their own viewpoint on things, it arises directly out of their own experience, and they usually have plenty of what are good reasons (from their point of view) for them to feel the way they do. I am willing to meet people halfway when it comes to that.

And I mostly avoid singing material that directly attacks someone else who is living in my society...though I do sing about common problems we are all facing.

Let's face it. When you sing those kind of "attack" songs you are singing to the choir. Sometimes whoever is out there listening is not part of the choir. If so, you will have added a little more bad feeling to someone else's day, and I'm not so sure that's a very useful thing to do.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:54 PM

Ron et al-

"Blacklisting"?

I'm not sure how that practice has anything to do with Sol coordinating a house concert.

His guests made a choice to leave the concert but demanded their money back because the performers didn't meet their criteria of what should be sung. In my opinion they have no claim for a refund. Sol is entirely within his rights to invite whatever performers he wants to his house concerts, even Burl Ives (although Ives is not operational currently).

Are you suggesting that any house concert host should affirmatively invite the full spectrum of political aligned singers, from left to right, Democratic to Republican, Green Party to Red Party, John Birch Society to John (Jack) Reed Club? If so I disagree with you.

However, I do agree with Oscar Brand that Burl Ives should be broadcast on a folk music radio show, even though Ives did help blacklist many other fine folk music performers. He was a fine singer and an inspiration to many. And Oscar Brand was familiar with what Ives had done long before he was confronted by Dave Van Ronk.

As a further aside, In 1959, Dick Ellington and Dave Van Ronk wrote and self-published THE BOSS'S SONGBOOK, the subtitle of which was "Songs to Stifle the Flames of Discontent." It was supposed to be a humorous collection, consciously modeled on the IWW Little Red Songbook. Some on the left were not amused.

The question of what house concerts one as a guest should consider going to is an entirely different question, and it is a matter of personal taste and experience. Refunds should not have any role in that consideration, in my opinion, unless the performers are unable to make their gig.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

Charley - I took Ron's comment about 'blacklisting' to be directed at your comment that you might not attend a concert by a certain person whose political views were anathema to you, rather than concerning Sol's situation ... The 'blacklist' idea being a bit of an extrapolation ...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:14 PM

""Blacklisting"?

I'm not sure how that practice has anything to do with Sol coordinating a house concert."

Charlie, either I did not explain myself correctly or you were not paying attention. You took this on a completely wrong tangent and I suggest you re-read the comments I made after I related the story. This has nothing to do with comparing it to a blacklist.

My comment was directed at the idea of "liberal" that has been thrown about here. More people are expressing outrage that someone would show a display disagreeing with a performer whose politics 99% of us agree with.

Would you give someone their money back if they became ill or had another reason to leave? Is your policy consistent - or is the decision based on disagreement with their political stance? The point is being even handed, and if you follow through with your policy for all cases, you have no issues.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:22 PM

(Okay, so I wasn't really paying attention either ... !)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:42 PM

You were closer meself! :)   

I thought I was fairly clear before I mentioned that story. The basis of this entire thread is not about a "political fallout" - Sol is asking for his opinion on how it was handled.

My mention of that story showed how Oscar Brand displayed an even handed approach to a request that effected his "business" - a radio show.

Sol had a request, and I do believe he also employed the same even handed approach in what was good for his "business" - a concert series.

Again, my point is to everyone that felt it is an easy decision. Are you consistent?   Would you treat other requests for refunds with the same standard.

That becomes closer to what the true definition of "liberal" is all about. It is beyond politics.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM

Wow - I guess this has nearly run it's course before I got here but this is a subject that interests me.

First of all SOL, I agree with what seems to be the majority here; that you certainly do not have to return their money. You would be reasonable to do so, if you chose - but perfectly within your rights not to and only you know what's best.

I have had people walk out of my shows over things I said - or tell me they thought what I said or sang about was highly offensive;

One group of three left a concert in Phoenix when I sang about a band of Confederate soldiers. The song was in no way offensive. It was not a South Will Rise Again song or anything - but I guess these folks don't believe Confederates could ever be heroes.

I had a couple of folks in Mississippi get up and walk out of a show when I sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic. They later explained to me the song was really a hateful song aimed at crushing the South after the Civil War. I didn't really get it, but at least they weren't mad at me; they just figured I didn't know.

I had a woman in Massachusetts tell me the song LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE was the most offensive thing she'd heard in all her life. The song pokes fun at the beer guzzling redneck who tells the story about how he doesn't think Ozwald was the assassin because Lee was his neighbor when he was a kid, and Lee was nice to him. It's a silly song - but not an offensive song.

And I had man write to the president of the Austin Celtic Festival complaining that I was extremely racist and insensitive because I told the story about someone who sailed the Atlantic in his nine foot sail boat. He told the TV reporter, "I left Portland Maine a Scotsman and I arrived in Falmouth England a Mexican because I lived on canned Chili for 76 days."

In none of these instances did it even occur to me that I was saying or doing anything offensive - and I am certain that in none of these instances should I have given offense to someone who really understood what I saying ... but sometimes people take offense. It makes me wonder how many times I may have inadvertently offended someone and don't know about it. I think this only makes me more careful to be true to saying what I mean as clearly as possible.

I don't preach, as a performer. I know some folks are really good at the political performing thing and I do respect it - but my interest in performing is at the lower levels; the human levels. True these are the places or the levels from which our political opinions spring - and I am sure you would catch the underpinnings of my political opinions from my shows - but that is not the point.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM

Oh sorry - I didn't explain why my 'people walking out on me' was germane to this discussion.

I liken my responses to each of these situations I list above to yours SOL. I wondered "should I attempt damage repair" whether or not I agree with the offended party? Or should I let it go? I have to say I've done both. Most of the time I've said "I am sorry to have offended, it was not my intention." And I was earnest when I said this, even though I believed they should not have been offended.

But one of these times I determined the person was truly unreasonable and not genuine in their alleged "offense" - so I declined to comment at all.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GregMagpie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:00 AM

Well, this is all so fascinating.
Greg Artzner of Magpie here, writing for both myself and my partner Terry. I'm reading these comments to her before we post them. As the artists in question, we appreciate all of the comments. We have thoroughly enjoyed reading the various points of view, both in favor of refund and opposed to it, supportive of political statements in folk music and against them. We also appreciate the comments regarding the core of the issue for Sol, which is: "how do you deal with such a situation?" Many excellent points made here on both sides of every issue.
   First, since most of you weren't there, I'd like to let you all know what the 2 women were responding to. In her email to Sol one of the two women characterized our performance as "hateful, sarcastic, political mudslinging" and "hateful slander." The songs that they actually heard that apparently riled them up were nothing of the kind, and the proof is that the entire evening was video recorded. They were a couple of songs that deal with war. The first was one we wrote entitled "Where Have They All Gone?" which asks serious questions about the impact of the betrayal of all of us by political "leaders." It's based on the premise that unlike during the Vietnam war, the casualties and costs of the war in Iraq are well-hidden from us by design of the administration in collusion with submissive media. We followed that song with Phil Ochs' classic, "Is There Anybody Here?" introducing it with comments about the fact that the song was partly responsible for the stand I took against the Vietnam war as a conscientious objector. These songs are strong indeed, but "hateful, sarcastic, political mudslinging" and "hateful slander" they are absolutely not. Nor were our introductory remarks. If there was any hate expressed is was hatred of war and betrayal, certainly not of any person or group. The remaining songs in the set, including the ones before we "got political" were songs dealing with a spectrum of the human experience, including one song that pays tribute to the sockeye salmon which we preceded with a host of fish jokes! The disgruntled woman said we engaged in "hateful slander." Slander is malicious falsehood aimed at injury of another. I am afraid the only person engaged in slander here is her.
Terry and I truly appreciate the voices of support here from people who have heard us and know our music. Indeed it is true, our motivation has always been to be thoughtful as well as provocative and entertaining in support of the big causes: peace, justice, freedom, equality, environmental responsibility. They are issues that transcend politics, transcend political party. We certainly are proud to call ourselves progressives, but that is because we are committed to progress, not to any particular political ideology. We would never engage in "hate speech," but at the same time we won't cower from calling things as we see them, based upon the best information we have at our disposal. We are always willing to discuss controversial issues with members of our audiences who disagree. We have done it many times over the years. We only wish these women had stayed around long enough that we could have spoken with them during the intermission.
   As far as the issue of refund is concerned, I completely concur with the idea of non-refund for any type of performance. If I walked out of a performance mid way through the first set, which I would NOT do under similar circumstances, I would never expect a refund, no matter what my reasons for wanting to leave might be. I think these women were extremely rude to storm out of an intimate concert as they did, interrupting Sol's enjoyment of the program he had worked to present, to demand their money back from him. Terry and I have not yet decided whether we will refund the money. After all, it's already been spent. We put it into our fuel tank, and it's well on it's way to the coffers of the oil magnates, Cheney, et al. Seriously, we might just send her a check because frankly we don't want her money. We also would prefer to take the pressure off of Sol and the venue and diffuse the whole issue of small claims and ill publicity. But before we send her her money, we will attempt to engage her in a thoughtful email exchange regarding this whole affair.
There have been so many comments made that we would love to address directly, but too many to do so. Thank you all for helping us to find perspective on all the issues involved. We will keep your thoughts in mind.
   peace,
   Greg & Terry

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: astro
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:32 AM

Since the money has been sent along with the performers, how about leaving it up to them....obviously, the poor sods have not been out much and have yet to learn that what they find out of the house may be not on Fox....

Astro....

(hardly any sense on humor on the right is there....)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:47 AM

This whole discussion has been fascinating to read and ponder upon- and it's a question that I have considered myself. There probably is no definitive answer. It wouldn't occur to me to ask for my money back, no matter how violently I disagreed with the message. I might be disgruntled that I had wasted the money or that I had inadvertently supported the offensive cause but I think I would figure that by word of mouth I could negate its effect. :)

However, Greg appearing in the thread and giving his view wraps it up very well. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:08 AM

Whether something is "offensive" or not is strictly a matter of individual perception.

Be that as it may, I am not impressed by people who storm out of some concert and make a big deal about asking for their money back. I think it's a form of grandstanding, and it's a form of emotional blackmail. They're just trying to get their pound of flesh and prove how morally superior they are to whoever they're angry at. Some people like to grandstand in that fashion, but I'm not well impressed by it when they do. I think it's obnoxious.

If you don't like a performance, just leave. What the heck? Get on with the rest of your life. You can't control what other people choose to do in a musical performance and you shouldn't expect to.

The sooner you let go of something that upset you, the sooner that particular monkey is off your back. Those women appear determined to carry that monkey for as long as they possibly can. Litigation lawyers LOVE people who can't dump the monkey off their back...cos without such people those lawyers would soon be out of a large amount of work, wouldn't they?

What is a (litigation) lawyer's dream? People who cannot and WILL not let go...or forget...or forgive.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:57 AM

I am reminded of the Hobgoblin Brewery advertising slogan:

"What's the matter Lager boy, afraid you might taste something?"

If you bought a pint of beer and decided halfway down you didn't like the taste, would the barman give you your money back? I suspect not.

A concert is rather like a pint of beer - it can be the same beer (performers) but in different venues it will have a different flavour (content or character)... if you don't like the beer in one pub, either don't go back to that pub or try different beer.

They heard something they didn't like... perhaps they were afraid they might be made to think.

LTS

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:10 AM

Well, well.
I had been looking at this from a strictly business point of view.
vis. A customer gets upset and asks for their money back. What would I do? I've been quite clear as have about 50% of the people here that the most practical solution would be to refund and apologize. That's simply good business practice.
But now we have another element to the debate.
One of the players has decided to offer their twopence worth and I don't quite know what to make of that.
My mind hasn't changed at all about refunds, that's a no brainer nor do I think Sol would set this up as some kind of publicity for these guys although his total absence after starting this thread is a mystery to me.
What really has me curious about these entertainers has a lot more to do with what I don't see.
Compassion, I suppose. Empathy. The ability to look at your fellow human being and imagine what it must be like from their point of view.
Important attributes for any entertainer.
So here's a thing.
I am no fan of George Bush. That's fairly well known around here. As a matter of fact, I can't stand the guy but with 3.000 American soldiers dead I can't see any way on God's green earth that I would go to America and try to make a living singing anti Bush or ant war songs. For one, that would be earning a living from the war and I couldn't bring myself to do that but more importantly, sooner or later you are going to find yourself singing to a couple of grieving mothers.
And when that happens you'll be lucky if all they want is their money back

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM

At the end of the day Jim you have to decide whether your principles are more important than the money.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:19 AM

I'm an entertainer.
I'd like to save the world without hurting anyone's feelings.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM

A lovely thought Jim, but like Arlo says - "you wanna end war and stuff you gotta sing loud!"

LTS

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

I've only had two people walk out of a performance. I sang a song called Big Ellie Mae. Learned it from Gordon Menzies in Scotland. It's about a golf pro who was trying to teach a woman who was, shall we say,
top heavy? when he said, .."I've only seen two that could swing like yours do, and they were on a Camel I saw in the zoo" They left. Now, if they had listened to the rest of it, they would have heard,.." this pointed remark at the poor girl's physique made Ellie lash out in a great fit of pique, her blow caught the pro in his most tender spot, now he's got two just as big as she's got.."

The world is full of malcontents with very thin skins. Let them bugger off, who cares?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

Refusing to attend a concert based on the voting record of the performer (when his political views are never a part of the act) is blatant blacklisting.I wish Pete Seeger would take a look at this thread and comment.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

I think it's a personal choice, Mary. One person does not a black list make. I'd rather have unhappy people NOT attend. They're disruptive.

It's good to hear from you Greg, but I hope you make sure what you believe is good for Sol is what Sol wants.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

I think I recognize one of those house concert singers mentioned above. Thanks for the kind comments, friends!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:04 AM

Great to hear Greg's take on what actually happened. I still wonder how and why those two women found their way into an event for which they clearly had no empathy or understanding.

Also nice to hear from Jed. Every example he provided from his experience was certainly one where no one should have taken offense, but someone did and he seems to have reponded appropriately.

One question that's driving me nuts: whose song is "Lee Harvey Was Friend of Mine"? I've heard it and gotten a good laugh, but not recently; I know I should remember the artist, but I don't...

Subject: Lyr Add: LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
(Bennison/Cotton)

I was born in Dallas in 1952,
Lee Harvey moved across the street on Bentley Avenue,
He used to throw the ball to me when I was just a kid,
They say he shot the president---I don't think he did.

Cho: And Lee Harvey was a friend of mine,
He used to take me fishing all the time,
He used to throw the ball to me when I was just a kid,
They say he shot the president but I don't think he did.

I've seen them pictures of him with the family and a gun,
Shadows were pointin' every-which-a-way;
'Twas only just for fun,
Someone faked those photos; that's not the way it is,
They say he shot the president; I don't think he did.

I seen it on the TV when Lee Harvey got gunned down,
Murdered by Jack Ruby---the biggest sleaze in town,
He stuck that gun into his ribs;
Says, "Here's lookin' at you, kid,
Ruby killed Lee Harvey---TV proved he did!!

as sung by T.Texas Edwards and the Sickoids
Found this song on a red vinyl, 7-inch, 331/3 rpm record. Written by
"Bennison/Cotton"--Bennisongs/Ben-Jay Music(BMI). As released on
SFTRI 55---Sympathy For The Record Industry record company---4901
Virginia Ave.---Long Beach, CA. 90805

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:17 AM

So the feeling is then that it was political?
Sounds to me that the ladies were right.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

Whether the performance was political or controversial in any way, these two women came to someone's private home, listened only briefly, and then made a scene in the middle of the first set, demanding their money back. I would have firmly told them "No refunds, sorry, you're welcome to leave" and shown them the door. Regardless of their ideology, rude people like that are not welcome. If they had been reasonable and waited until the intermission to discuss their sensitivities with the performers, they might have warranted different treatment, and they might have even garnered some sympathy. Bah, humbug...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

Folk song is often political. Often it comes from a position on the left, sometimes from the right.

If I go to a folk performance, I know I can expect to hear political views expressed, either within the songs or by the artists between the songs (this is particularly likely when the political temperature is raised , and the US is of course in the run up to an election). They may or may not be views I share, but that needn't prevent me from enjoying the music. For example, I don't share Dick Gaughan's politics, but I greatly admire his music and I won't let my disagreement with some of what he says interfere with that.

The only reasons for asking for your money back, IMO, are that the performance was not what was advertised or the standard of performance didn't live up to your reasonable expectations. If you simply don't like it, whether on political or musical grounds, then too bad.

I've noticed that Americans take great pride in their constitutional right to free speech, but some seem to think it applies only to themselves and those who express views they agree with.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: mg
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

That is sort of what I was thinking. WHat if they were Gold Star mothers. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

What's a Gold Star Mother?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

http://www.goldstarmoms.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Star_Mothers

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

A Gold Star Mother is one whose child was killed while serving in the U.S. armed forces.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

Got it!
Well that's pretty well been my thinking from the start.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Magpie have also made their political stance known from the start. Heat and kitchens come to mind.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Only comes to mind if you've actually heard of them.
I hadn't until now.
So they got their free publicity.
They've even had their say.
Was a great opportunity for them to put their best feet forward and I think they did that.

I'll be moving on now.

Don't be offended.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: billhudson
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

My two cents…… It's a funny thing when people just want to sing like a record, no opinion, no thought just like what I call noise candy. Shut up and sing the song some say, but being human and myself having a mike in front of me, well it just comes out. If there was someone out there that wanted their money back because of something I would say, I have to pay for gas to get here and why not wait a minute and sit back and enjoy the show. But it sounds to me they did not do their homework.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

> Only comes to mind if you've actually heard of them

Those two women went to see them, which means they at least knew the name and could have easily got info, which is readily available.

They are mature adults, and as such are responsibile for what they choose to expose themselves to. Performers should not be expected to take a financial loss (or censor their material) because someone who has voluntarily come to listen might disagree and get offended.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Fortunato
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

Sol,
    In my opinion your decision was correct.
    Indeed, Greg and Terry's music carries on a critical tradition of social and political commentary in folksong. It is their right (and ours) here in the USA to use their art to raise the conciousness of their audience according to their beliefs. If the audience choses to retreat from that expression they may do so.
    I believe that Magpie's music is all the more timely and important in these times, for the bad news is so excruciatingly loud and unrelenting that society may turn away from sheer exhaustion. Magpie and we must continue to raise the cry of peace and justice and freedom, or we may all abrogate our responsibilities out of fatigue and lethargy.

Carry on Greg and Terry and Sol. I'm with you.
Chance Shiver

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

My reaction would be to dislike the performer for lecturing me. Unless I agreed with the views expressed. If I felt strongly enough I would say something to organiser or performer.

If the ladies did not hear the whole concert and presumed the performers were not ballanced in the second half - then they would have to prove that, and accept they did not assess it fully. And if they interrupted the flow of the concert in any way you may have a counter-claim.

But I ain't no expert on legal matters and certainly not in another country.

Are the regulars to your concerts any help in providing suggestions or letters of support?

I did it once for Maglan (Princess Dinizulu) when a landlord tried all measure of tricks (on me as well) and she had to go to a small claims court when he instigated proceedings. I (and many of us) wrote to the judge. She won. She was collecting for charity.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

"They are mature adults, and as such are responsibile for what they choose to expose themselves to."

A sign of a healthy concert series or venue is that the audience will come out and take a chance on artists they are not familiar with. IF the series or venue has a good history, the patron will have an idea of what to expect.   However, the person purchasing the ticket has the ultimate responsibility to know what they are seeing.

In the U.S. at least, I think anyone who goes to a concert that is labeled as "folk" should have some expectation that the possibility exists of political content being raised.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

If the ladies did not hear the whole concert and presumed the performers were not ballanced in the second half.....

I am not sure where the idea that one should provide balance comes from. Utah Phillips never provided balance, nor would he have been expected to. When our beloved friend Jean Ritchie sings of the destroying of mountain tops for mining, should we expect her to take the side of the rapers of the land in the second half? When I sing the songs of the destruction of the working class, and the abuse of workers, should I be expected to sing songs glorifying capitalists and the boss in the second half? Should an Irish Nationalist sings songs in the second set glorifying the British empire?

Balance isn't required, but integrity and honesty about one's views are. The performer's only obligation is to deliver their music, whether topical or for entertainment value, in a professional manner. It is about the music, and the music is usually about an opinion or an honest human emotion. It is on the audience to choose who they see, and it is certainly their right to not see them again.

Nice job, Sol. When I finally get out there to play the Borderline, you may count on an honest performance from me, delivered as well as I can deliver it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

"My reaction would be to dislike the performer for lecturing me."

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't believe the performers were taken to task for "lecturing," but rather for the lyrical content of their songs. Tough luck if someone didn't like it.

******************************************

SINS: thanks for the lyrics and composer/recording-artists names for "Lee Harvey..."; however, I didn't recognize either "Bennison/Cotton" or "T.Texas Edwards and the Sickoids."

Upoon further consideration, I realized that I had heard this amusing number from another wacky group of Texans, the Asylum Street Spankers.

I wonder how those two old birds would have reacted to a Spankers show. If the political stuff didn't chase them home first, I'm sure they would be absolutely horrified by Christina Mars' rendition of "Shave 'Em Dry."

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

Whether the performance was political or controversial in any way, these two women came to someone's private home, listened only briefly, and then made a scene in the middle of the first set, demanding their money back. I would have firmly told them "No refunds, sorry, you're welcome to leave" and shown them the door. Regardless of their ideology, rude people like that are not welcome. If they had been reasonable and waited until the intermission to discuss their sensitivities with the performers, they might have warranted different treatment, and they might have even garnered some sympathy. Bah, humbug...

Too true Barbara.

I put forward my view, further down in this thread, on the basis that these persons showed no manners whatsoever in making their objections known - they approached the organiser whilst the concert was underway, thus spoiling his enjoyment and, most likely, that of the people nearest to him. Now, I consider that to be a totally selfish and ignorant act and, for that reason, would make it clear that they were no longer welcome in my home.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM

'when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up' - quote from the original post

How this this metamorphosize into the perjorative
'those two old birds'?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

My ex wife and I took a trip to St. Maartin, and among other things, we took a bus tour around the island. One of the stops was a nude beach. As we were walking down to the beach with our group, another group was coming up off the beach. One of the women in that group was raving about the nasty things she saw, and assuring everyone within earshot that she didn't engage in such behavior, and hated porn too! After they all cleared off, our driver said,. "I wonder what she expected to see on a nude beach"?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:55 PM

OK folks. I thank everyone for the feedback. I think that this was one of the most informative and well thought out threads on Mudcat.

Some ask why I did not return to this thread sooner. It is because I wanted to hear YOUR opinions this matter which I value very much.
At one point the posts were coming in faster than I could read them so I could not have responded sooner even if I wanted to.

When you have an audience of 32 people in your living room and only 2 decide to make a spectacle of themselves, I think that you are doing something right. Among those who totally enjoyed the show and heartily applauded the performers were some folks whom I know to be diehard Republicans and supporters of our present policy in Iraq. In fact one of them was given an award as the GOP volunteer of the year for the entire state of NJ and to hear her heartily singing along with Greg & Terry to the chorus of "Haul Them All Off To Jail" was indeed a sight to behold. At the end of the performance Magpie was given a standing ovation and were brought back out to do an encore.

The 2 ladies that walked out were first timers who had picked up my flyer at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival. They are not regulars and I do not expect to ever see them again. I was sitting up front, less than 5 feet from the performers when they walked up to me in the middle of a song and asked for their money back. They lacked any modicum of common decency whatsoever.

As far as the resolution of the matter goes, Greg & Terry graciously took the matter out of my hands and will be sending these ladies a refund, not because they deserved it but because they felt bad for the aggravation that I was going through as a result of this incident. Greg & Terry are truly great human beings as well as fantastic performers. They will always be welcome back at the Borderline and we are planning to rebook them again at a future date down the road.

As for me, I will never tell a performer who appears at my venue what they can or can not play & sing. I will definitely not back down when faced with one or two mal-contents who want to spoil it for everyone else.

I am having Christine Lavin for my next show on November 23rd and you know that nobody is going to tell Christine what she can or can not sing. If she wants to sing "The Liar Sleeps Tonight" she has my full blessings to do so. By then we will already know who our next President will be and tempers will not be so hot, unless this election also ends up as a 5 to 4 Supreme Court decision.

I thank all those who participated in this thread for the education that you have given me.

SOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:05 PM

Sounds to me like you got your political message out then.
They were right.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:05 AM

Jed,
I'm reminded of my old friend who was a Latino fireman in Chicago. He and his wife named their first born, a son, Jose. The next child, also a son, they named Hose B.

I told that joke before I sang Woody's "Deportees" once----and 6 people walked out. But six more soon filled their seats. Such is life. There is no better way to polarize an audience, and figure out who is who.

Terry and Greg are wonderful singers. I bet it's been 25 years since I last ran into them. It's wonderful to "hear their voices" in this thread. My favorite of theirs has always been the song that I always called simply "The Diggers."

All the best to you two---and everyone else to boot.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

"The world is full of malcontents with very thin skins. Let them bugger off, who cares?"
Bingo!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM

send them the money back.

Make a press release.

'Republicans storm out of folk concert'

E-mail it round everywhere, along with a picture of the band. rell tem you're dong it.

Get a quote from them, quote from the letter, you put in a quote - something about the spirit of woody guthrie lives on in tese guys.

its an election story - it will fly - you will get a lot of publicity for you concerts. No such thing as bad publicity!

Okay that's my idea, but then I've been a hustler a long time..

best wishes

al

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM

e-mail the youtube of these guys to Sarah Palin, try and get a quote - would Sarah have walked?

The papers are sick of trying to guess what panties she wears - she is SO last week! she will thank you for the break - you'll be on her Xmas card list!

The papers and TV stations(don't forget to e-mail them!)are hungry for stuff like this. I can smell the blood in the water - go for it!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

Ballance is not a given.

But in a court of law, lack of it has to be proven.

And for that the evidence has to be collected, from whoever was there.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Magpie should send a copy of this thread with the refund check. Maybe the two women will learn something.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

I doubt it Barbara - IMO anyone ignorant enough to cause that sort of disruption has no chance of learning anything different. I hope that they have been put off folk for good!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

There are some who will be offended simply hearing a view different from their own. There are obviously some who will be offended simply discovering a person has a different view from theirs, even if the person doesn't perform any political material.

Hopefully, they will steer clear of the venue or at least leave graciously.

The rudeness probably is more of a 'this day and age' thing. People are used to TVs and stereos and loud live music that they can and must shout over and those performers are not able to hear them.

I'm looking at the line-up from Falcon Ridge this year, and I figure these women must have had their elbows in their ears or something. Probably just talked through the performances. Not expecting political content in folk music can't possibly be a valid excuse.

I don't like the fact that these tightly-sphinctered wonders got their money back, but I really respect Magpie for being better than they had to be. Maybe this is just another form of pacifism and the two women will think about common human decency.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

Sol-

Given that your experience triggered this discussion, I'm pleased that you posted your reaction. I was also pleased to hear from Magpie to gain the performers' perspective, and I'm impressed but not surprised that they are endeavoring to arrange a refund for the offended (and offensive) two.

There also are some lessons to be learned about what "blacklisting" is or isn't. Mick, Ron, and Jeri seem to have nailed that one right. "Blacklisting" is negatively characterizing performers, discriminating against them on the basis of political criteria, and encouraging those who would consider booking them not to. "Blacklisting" is not something that the audience or potential audience members do; action from them might better be described as a "boycott," refraining from having any dealing with said performer or performers.

My family is intimately familiar with the meaning and impact of "blacklisting" given the experience that Richard Dyer-Bennet underwent in the 1950's, in part because Burl Ives identified him at a public hearing as a Communist sympathizer. Dyer-Bennet continued to perform (although at a much reduced level) and teach but never achieved the commercial success that he might have been expected to have achieved.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

It was neither a blacklist or a boycott, it was a simple act of protest.   If it were a boycott, the idea would be that the women protest until there was a change made in the performers and then they would go back. The idea of the grape or lettuce boycott was not to say we will never eat those items again, just that we will not support until changes are made.

Again, my use of the term "blacklisting" earlier in this discussion had nothing to do with this particular incident with Magpie - I was attempting to share a story that happened to involve blacklisting, but that was not the point of comparison.

I'm glad it was resolved. Neither Magpie or Sol are giving in to pressure or admitting any guilt - they have none. The women were wrong in their reasoning when they described it as "hateful", but the eventual resolution is a business decision that has long range plans and will allow performers like Magpie to continue have a stage where they can share their music and opinion.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM

Why were two people with a mental age of eight at a folk concert in the first place?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

Emma B: You wrote:

"'when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up' - quote from the original post

How this this metamorphosize into the perjorative
'those two old birds'? "

Well, your position seems to be very much in the minority among those posted here, but that should not impact its potential relevance. Since I'm the person whose choice of words you question, I feel constrained to answer.

As I read the phrase "as soon as the music started to turn political," it is clear that the two women interrupted the show and walked up to Sol while the performers were singing. That alone would seem to earn them a perjorative reference.

And, as far as my phraseology "those two old birds" is concerned, I think that it is only very mildly perjorative. Believe me, I could have written a lot worse, and almost did! (My first draft featured a different word beginning with "b.")

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

well, *grin" I see it was resolved 'almost' as I suggested..

"I'd have offered to pass their names to Magpie....and I 'think', that if I were in Greg & Terry's position, I'd have sent them back half of it, just to make a point..."

Greg & Terry are even more generous than me!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: $ongWriter
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

Hello, just found this site..it's my first post. I would have given them their money back just to save face for the club. People who are pissed will tell at least 10 people about their experience and with you not there to defend your side guess which side gets told. Personally I don't look to entertainers for their political views. The Eagles are a great example, I've always loved their music up until this last CD. It is the worst piece of trash that I've ever paid good money for. Where's Hotel California or Tequila Sunrise. Bruce Springsteen and the Dixie Chicks are in the same boat. Just shut up and sing...the only time someone should spout their political view as an entertainer is when they are at a political function such as one of the conventions or a local political rally. Then I think it's fine....just my opinion....

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:56 PM

Perfect statement there, $ongWriter. Now, perhaps this contentious thread can be closed? Just hoping.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I think they were just shoppers and didn't like the product. They should have waited until the song was over though. Unless it was such that they felt they could not stay and condone it. Then they were protestors.g mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

That would be why you all yourself $ongwriter not song writer, I suppose. It is of course the privilege of the amateur but I find such transparent venality rather lacking in artisic integrity.

PDQ, of coure you so wish. You do not want your distasteful fellow travellers exposed.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

Sticking your politics in somebdy else's face is just plain rude. No Class.

Personal attacks are just the same and come from the same people.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM

"Sticking your politics in somebdy else's face is just plain rude. "

And what are you doing with that comment?

Better get back to BS where you belong. Woody and Utah and Ewan are still alive and well in the music threads.

What is it about the phrase, "This machine kills Fascists" that you don't get?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

Rude and abusive people suck.

They are insecure and cannot stand the slightest affront to their beliefs.

I will post when I want and where I want. Call it a protest.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jayto
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

Stick to your guns man. THEY WOULD NOT GET A CENT OUT OF ME!! We still have free speech here you know (at least for the moment). I do not normally get political at my gigs. Not because I don't have strong opinions (Anyone that knows me knows that for a fact) but because I get lost in music. When I enter the musical realm it is all emotion. Some of my favorite artists are very vocal about thier opinions. I respect it even though I don't always agree. When I disagree though I do not expect them to financially compensate me for the internal anger that is sometimes instigated by their opinion. That is basically what happened here. Let them take you to small claims court. That is a battle worth fighting.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM

Pots. Kettles.

"Black, black, black is the color of. . . ."
                               --John Jacob Niles

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

This has surely been a long and instructive thread in many respects---Greg's comments being, to me, the most well thought out and presented. Not to denigrate others.

The fact that they are refunding the money to the patrons is surely a generous act on their part. One, I feel, is totally unnecessary and ill advised but, surely, within their perogative. Sol is the purveyor of this program (aka producer/promoter). Magpie is the artist and this is its living. Sol worries about Small Claims court---won't happen and if it did it would be all to the good.

Still on the business aspect. Think a larger venue. Carnegie Hall or such---I have attended Pete Seeger, Honey in The Rock, etc; there and I saw a few people over the years walk out. One concert especially---a benefit for Angela Davis. No one asked or would have gotten their money back. You purchased a ticket--you got it--period. By the way--the Angela Davis thing. I cannot say that I faulted those folks who left since it was not billed as a benefit for her legal bills.

How about an analogy? The U S Open Tennis matches. You go there for the sport and find some people waving their Serbian flags (parents of one of the players) and it is a prominent thing on TV. Think you will get a refund because they are presenting their political views?

Aside from the business aspect of all this---house concerts vis a vis large venues. That someone has--to use the Yiddish expression--"Chutzpah" to interrupt a performance for a refund is totally unnaceptable. First, I find it hard to put myself in the place of such boors who cannot wait for an intermission to leave in a respectful manner. A larger venue would have had security oust them. That said, it seems to me that the people embarrassed themselves even more and one has to wonder how they could have such "Chutzpah" and still feel any self respect.

As to the point of these two patrons being upset about the political content one has to wonder how it is that they were attendees at Falcon Ridge. Not that the venue is a political hotbed, but, rather, not the kind of place one would expect them to find of interest.

While I do believe that if an event is to be politicized it should so be advertised. On the other hand at a "folk" concert it must be expected that some of the songs will be of some sort of political nature---even traditional ones. Unlike the pap of pop "folk" always had and still does have more to say to us. Especially those of us who will listen and not just nod our heads to Top 40. Or is smash our heads now with the new material---make me old?---Get off my lawn?

As to Magpie. While some artists who I also admire can be "right on" and, perhaps, upset some folks (i.e. Roy Zimmerman, The Foremen, and, yes, Tom Paxton) Magpie has always been subtle and poetic in their musical commentary when it touched topical issues.

It has been my honor and privilige to know them and to respect their musical talents and their humanity.

If, SOL, you need an attorney for the non-event of Small Claims may I recommend the firm that represents me----Cheatum Decievum and Billum

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM

I don't see how this is a free speech issue. I think it is a market issue and I don't think they had to be refunded their money. Free speech says usually you can say it. It doesn't mean anyone has to listen. It also does not mean they have to pay for the privilege. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM

So they found out about the concert at Falcon Ridge? I look at the performer list at Falcon Ridge this year and wonder how any reasonably intelligent person could possibly NOT expect politics at folk music events.

Was this a planned hissy fit?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM

At Falcon Ridge, with many stages and workshops going on at the same time, one can probably pick and choose which events they wish to attend. They were probably lucky enough to catch all the non-controversial performers in the various time slots.

SOL

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

Ah! those old chestnuts.......... Cheatum Decievum and Billum -

successors to Dewie, Cheatham, & Howe (incorporating Harman A. Legg)

I like the idea of sending this whole thread with the money back offer. But I feel the Half-Refund would be more instructive. But add this thread anyway.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

Why not try Wright Hassall Solicitors in Leamington Spa. I hear they can make things difficult for your adversaries!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

Or use our own Mudcat firm:
LANE, FIELDING, PATTERSON,& SWAN
**WAYLAND******TORONTO******BREMEN******OAKLAND**
    Layabouts-At-Large And For Hire

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM

I doubt that Deceivum Cheatum and Billum would approve of that 1/2 price settlement.

They would opt for a copy of the postings here along with a note asking them to do that at a large venue and see how effective they are. Should that work--get all the money back.

Once, of course, they got past the security people --which at a house concert is the host. I doubt he or she packs anything more than a serving tray

Nill Hahn

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

There I go with typos---Nill Hahn---perhaps I am.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM

There are also the fictitious Sue Grabbit & Runne, and the real Argue & Phibbs

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM

We used to have a legal firm around here called Crooker & Worry.

They were closed down for embezzling trust funds, I believe.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

I'd send 'em a check and say "of course, should you choose to cash
this, I reserve the right to put together a song and some stage patter
about two biddies who interrupted our set by stomping out."

They get forty bucks back, which will soon be spent.

You get additions to your material which will last forever.

And if you're REALLY lucky, they'll overhear their "story" at
a Festival at which they came to hear someone else.

The NJ Folk project has a good idea; they charge a certain amount
at the door which goes to the cost of keeping the lights on and paying
the main performer the contracted amount. At the end of the evening,
they put out a bucket for donations, ALL of which go to the main
performer. (The opening act is, unfortunately, left out of this.)

So, in this sort of situation the biddies could have been told "The
ticket price paid for the seats which are yours for the night whether
or not you choose to use them for the whole night. But you don't
have to supplement the amount you paid if you choose not to."

N.B.: I'm *not* by any means endorsing that venue's booking policies
in general or really at all, but that part of the system is good.
Their refusal to comply with AFM contract requirements, however is
highly un-good!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM

"Was this a planned hissy fit?"

Interesting question! Maybe the characters in this story with the real political agenda were not the performers, but the innocent-looking little old ladies...

I thought of those two earlier today, when I spent an hour or so at the temporary Allstate Insurance Claim Center set up in the parking lot of the Lowe's store near my job. I parked, walked over to where people were standing on line, took my place, and a minute or so later a little old lady with a cane arrived and stepped right in front of me.

I didn't even open my mouth before she started in justifying her behavior. (I did have enough time to give her a questioning look.) According to her, I had taken her spot in the queue by "rushing ahead" of her; in other words, as soon as she could see the end of the line, that end-of-the-line position was, in her mind, rightfully hers. The fact that I was approching from a different direction and got there first was seen as an underhanded, cheating move on my part. It was obvious from her mean, accusing tone of voice that she genuinely considered herself to have been wronged.

Of course, I let her take the place in front of me ~ only cost me two or three minutes, in the end. She was at least seventy yeas old, about four and a half feet tall, and hobbling on a sprained ankle. She was certainly worthy of sympathy, but people got less and less willing to extend any to her as she proceeded to complain loudly and incessantly, and to try to push ahead, at every step of the process.

Like most of the folks filing claims today, I was asking only for compensation for evacuation expenses, which were being paid without regard to the normal deductable. (People who had sustained damage to their houses had already, for the most part, begun the insurance-claim process.) I was pretty satisfied with my payment; it did not cover my lost income for a week, but at least it paid for our lodging and gasoline, plus a per-diem-type meal allowance.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

Maybe she was afraid she would die before she got to the front of the line. I had one of those yesterday. I collected a shopping cart that was left in the middle of the parking lot (one with a little car built in for kids). As I walked to the door a woman tried to cut me off but the car was in the way. She was all huffy like I was somehow wrong just for living. Inside I put the cart on the side and got a regular one. She was still huffing at me. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

I think I just have a knee-jerk reaction against anyone who's seen
pushing one of those oversize shopping carts which block the aisles,
turn wide, frequently contain one or two squalling brats, and
generally take up more room in the aisles then necessary by any
stretch of the imagination.

Then again, the do use little kids for their best function---
bumpers.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM

Grow up.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM

Folks, I posted to this thread twice. Both are gone now. Nothing I said was inflammatory or even strident or argumentative in any way. I only want to say what great singers Terri and Greg are---and how my favorite song of all of theirs is the one concerning "The Diggers"

There, I said it again.

But what black hole was I lost in?

Art

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:48 PM

That last post of mine was not directed at Greg B in particular - we cross-posted ... Perhaps I should apologize; I seem to have been raised with different values than some, at least in regard to elderly - I mean, old biddies.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:05 PM

Art, and others, disappearing posts are not uncommon, but they are almost NEVER the result of censorship.

I have it happen now & then, too.. I try to always LOOK to see if the thread I posted to goes to the top...if not, I hit 'back' in my browser. Usually, your post is still there like you typed it. There can be a problem with cache updates or something..so.... go to your post, copy it...then hit 'reload' in your browser..NOT 'refresh' in Mudcat...go to the thread again and paste your post back in. This time it WILL take.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

Bill D:

Thanks for the instructions. I've managed to repost most times that my original effort didn't "take" ~ I always check, and I do experience this problem mayby 5-10% of the time.

But I have to make several tries by trial-and-error each time, and then when I finally succeed, I don't remember exactly what I did differently and so hadn't yet learned exactly what works and what doesn't.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SharonA
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

Refreshing this thread because I'd never read the latter half of it, after I posted, and missed the response by Greg of Magpie and the details of the incident posted by Rabbi Sol. Wow, I too am impressed that Magpie issued a refund to the two women, especially since the women had stood up and made a scene during the performance of a song, some 5 feet away from the performers, at a house concert where they would certainly have been obstructing the view of other audience members and interrupting others' enjoyment of the performance. (No common decency, as Sol said.)

I'm even more impressed that apparently Magpie kept on singing their song while the women were creating their scene. Consummate professionals!!!

I also want to relate what I did at a local house concert when I was displeased with the performance: I'd gone to hear a performer whose name escapes me, but who was billed as having an act in which he could make up a song on the spot about anything suggested to him by the audience. Neither the house concert hosts' publicity nor the singer's website mentioned that he did this by parodying popular songs. I hate parodies. I especially hate poorly-done parodies, and that's what this guy was performing. After listening to several of these, I was feeling increasingly annoyed that I'd paid my money to do so and that the guy's songs had been misrepresented as original music.

My solution? When the guy asked the audience once again to tell him what they were thinking so that he could make up a song about it, and when no one else responded, I piped up and said, "I hate parodies." Everyone had a good laugh at that, and the guy responded, "You're at the wrongggg concert!" I said, "I'm afraid I am!" More laughter followed, and then the guy probed a bit to find out more about me, and sang his Sharon Hates Parodies song-on-the-spot! So, both he and I turned a negative into a positive by working my "protest" into the act! I felt a little better afterward about parting with my 15 dollars -- I had been entertained after all. Again, I give credit to the performer for his professionalism.

Sharon

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,stallion
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 03:37 AM

Good thread to bring up again, I remember doing a floor spot at York university folk club in 1972, hardly a hotspot of trouble, the main act were an "Irish" band (none had discernable irish accents) and sang a lot of Irish rebel songs, I decided to sing some recruiting songs as a bit of a balance, didn't go down well, mainly orchestrated by the pseudo irish band. Being brought up a catholic and having been tought by 90% Irish teachers and being immersed in the Clancy brothers songs for many years I was well aquainted if not word perfect on their songs and i wasn't making a political statement with mine just singing different songs. I think this reminds me of the time I got in the wrong queue at the day clinic, I was going in to give a blood sample and I did think it rather odd that everyone else in the queue were in for vasectomys, anyway, by the time I had finished telling them my friends vasectomy stories the queue had dropped from 22 to 6, and one guy who stayed only stayed because I had stayed! I got in the right queue and he was dragged into theatre screaming and kicking. point is they were the wrong people in the wrong place and were a tad rude which reflects badly on them. money back, I don't think so , caveat emptor