BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America

Subject: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:56 PM

Naomi Wolf talks about the ten stops governments use to close down open democracies. She compares the steps that have been used historically when regimes in the past have succeeded in closing down open democracies, with things that are happening today in this country...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:57 PM

Correction: "ten steps"

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM

Currently reading her book.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:25 AM

You might also be interested in another Naomi.

http://www.naomiklein.org/main

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:29 AM

Definitely, dianavan. I started this thread about her a few days ago...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=105528

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:33 AM

Thanks Carole for the thread & the link, very interesting, very scary & very true.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:10 PM

Another step has been taken & completed. See this thread about our new constitution

We ar getting closer all the time.

So that's why I keep getting pulled out of line at the airport & searched & the rest of the folks I've travelled with don't.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:14 PM

Sounds like you're on "the list", Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

Truely, I'm surprized that I still posses a passport & it's time to renew it. Wonder if I'll be eligible for a new one or is the long time line at the passport offices really just a backlog that it's susposed to look like? "Restrict flight access"!?

I've always wanted to have emergency access to a sail boat, not just because I love the water but I've always felt the need, since the 60's, to have a back door to be able to exit through if & when this nation followed Germany of the 30's & 40's. It seems to me that, that time is now closer at hand than ever before.

I used to think that because I was a survivor of the 60's that I was "wired" to be suspicius & paranoid of this government. My feelings on that are now being validated, I was never wrong & I knew it too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM

If you get your boat, Barry, will you come and pick me up on your way to wherever you're going when the shit hits the fan? I've got family in Canada. LOL

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:41 PM

Canada will be glad to have you, Carol, and so will your friends here. What worries me is that the New World Order may spill across the border at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM

I think it's already beginning to. Recently, I was reading some rhetoric from some of the members of Mr. Harper's party that sounded unsettlingly similar to the rhetoric of our Neocons here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:18 PM

Yes. However, Mr Harper is dealing with a rather different cultural situation up here. The population here has different expectations from mainstream America, and only about 1/3 of the Canadian electorate traditionally supports what might be termed the "conservative" agenda. Canadian prime ministers must bear that in mind, lest they lose a vote of confidence in Parliament and be forced to call an election. That can happen at any time...not just at a set interval of every 4 years.

If the USA had such a system in place, Mr Bush would probably have been voted out some time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:51 PM

Dare I remind anyone that three or four years ago, I posted a list by a Dr. Lawrence Brill entitled "The 14 Defining Characteristic of Fascism," which said essentially what Naomi Wolf is saying in her lecture and book, and I was summarily set upon (or is that "sat upon?") by a horde of conservatives and liberals alike, all gradations thereof, who heaped curses and abuse upon me, smote me about the head and shoulders, and accused Dr. Brill of being a charlatan and me of being ridiculously extreme to give the list any credence and to ever post such a thing.

Vindication is indeed sweet. All of your apologies are accepted.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:22 PM

LH, do you feel that Canadians are immune to being terrorized by their government the way we have been here in the US? In other words, can you see a possibility that Mr. Harper's government could use the threat of a terrorist attack to get people to see things his way, as happened with a majority of people here in the US for a while?

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM

Yes, Don, you were entirely correct if that's what you said at the time. I have been saying myself for years now that there is a neo-fascist takeover happening in America at the topmost level of government, and I think that's been quite clear to many people outside America, but it has been less clear to many people in America, because it is just so unthinkable to people brought up to believe they live in "the land of the free". They think it can't happen in America. It can. It can happen anywhere. You can still have your elections. You can still have your shopping malls and your Nintendo games and all your entertainment shows...but under what is, in fact, an elected dictatorship that perpetuates itself. It can happen with either party (Dems or Reps) in power, provided simply that both parties are corrupted at the highest level, which I suspect they are.

Carol - No, I don't necessarily think Canadians are immune to being terrorized by their government in that fashion. It could certainly happen, but only if some extreme crisis arose within our borders...or was arranged. Such things can be arranged by those with the will to do it.

I'm not sure whether or not Mr Harper is possessed of such a will.

The innate unwillingness of our public (and many of our legislators) to accept such government action would be stronger here than in the USA, I think, because this is basically a more moderate society that does not take too readily to initiating or adopting violent measures. We don't tend to think in those terms.

Ultimately, though, yes it can happen here too. As I said above, it can happen anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:13 PM

You won't get an apology from me, Don, because I never disagreed with that premise, not when you posted it, nor when the other half dozen people posted it either. I do think, however, that Naomi's approach is less prone to being attacked. Because by phrasing it in the way she does, that these are the steps governments use in closing down an open society, her argument doesn't depend on everyone agreeing with the definition of facism that she uses.


I sure hope it doesn't happen to your country, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:29 PM

Me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:52 AM

Right. Naomi Wolf is much clearer and more explicit regarding the current manifestations than Brill was. No apology necessary, Carol.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:08 AM

Thanks Don, I wasn't going to apologize for greeing with you anyway.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Naomi Wolf - The End of America
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:19 PM

I heard Naomi talking about this foundation. I think it's worth taking a look at and seeing what they're about. She said that they've gotten some of the candidates to sign the pledge (don't know if they'll honor their signature, though)...

http://www.americanfreedomagenda.org/

http://www.americanfreedomagenda.org/About/freedompledge.htm