Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT

Subject: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: GUEST,Matthew Groves
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

It's time for a fantasy battle of the folk bands.

Peter, Paul & Mary vs. The Kingston Trio.


I say PETER, PAUL & MARY by far.

What say you?

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: GUEST,Tinker in Chicago
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:00 PM

Well, let's see.
PP&M...three members. KT...eleven. Two-thirds of the current group are ex-Limeliters anyway.
PP&M...two versatile songwriters. KT...one, and he hasn't done a significant song for decades.
PP&M...consistent product. KT...everything from old trad to Beatles to the ghastly "Something Else" album.
PP&M...honoring the old songs while still giving us new ones. KT...the same old same old (how many times can they record "Tom Dooley" anyway?).
PP&M...deeply committed to many social causes. KT...deeply committed to claiming trad songs for themselves so they can get the royalties.

And would you care to compare Bob Shane's ego with Peter's humility?

I gotta tell you, I've enjoyed both groups, seen both in concert, met members of both groups, learned songs from both groups. But you're comparing the Beatles to the Monkees and, while both groups entertained, the Beatles were innovative artists and the Monkees were corporate employees.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM

The Dubliners, or what a stupid thread.

eric

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:10 PM

I used to love the KT. today's group is just the authorized tribute band. I can't stand someone taking bows for someone else's work.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:10 PM

Chad Mitchell Trio.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 12:07 AM

They could sing well, but they could not play anything. The original KT were fairly good musicians.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:20 AM

Hmmmm. Don't think I'd accuse Peter Yarrow of humility.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Steve-o
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

Yeah, Tinker.....sadly misguided critique on all counts. Just for one, PP&M were fabricated by Albert Grossman, just as the Monkees were fabricated. There would not even have been a PP&M if not for the KT and its groundbreaking work.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:08 PM

KT: very influential
PP&M: very dreadful

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:29 PM

Hey, Peter, Paul and Mary don't hold a candle to our KT.... She takes 'um out in 43 seconds of the first round...

Registered KT admirin' fan...

...and proud of it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 09:52 PM

I much prefer the KT (as originally constituted).

PPM should, however, be given credit for pointing out to the public at large that Mr. Dylan wrote some pretty good stuff, as long as someone else sang it.

Peter (not Yarrow)

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: breezy
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:14 AM

Cockersdale and Coope Boyes and Simpson knock spots off the lot and dont need instruments

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:35 AM

Not to mention The Copper Family, The Watersons, The Wilson Family, no need to go on.

eric

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:11 PM

For me it isn't versus, it's "and".

My parents' record collection had vinyl long-playing albums
by both groups -- the original Kingston Trio, I hasten to add.

So I grew up listening to both.
And they both were my introduction to many traditional songs.
Peter Paul & Mary's first album ran a gamut:
Pete Seeger, Rev. Gary Davis, several gospel songs,
and yes, a few pop tunes thrown in.

The Kingston Trio album had Hawaiian/Tongan chants on it,
a Scottish folk song,
the English folk song The Keeper,
Carrier Pigeon which sounds like some kind of calypso.
They, too, introduced me to many things.
I am indebted to them all/both.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 06:39 PM

We grew up loving them both but since I've been wearing long pants I've much preferred listening to PPM. Some of KT's stuff now sounds a bit gimmicky (and some of it is still great).

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 08:18 PM

This is hardly my area of expertise, and I'm not sure why this thread has been revived, but there are things to consider. As some have pointed out, KT did some pretty strange stuff -- but PP&M were pretty weird at the end, too, ("The Great Mandala"? That's not folk; that's -- I dunno, psychosis?)

The flip side is, the KT wasn't really a "folk" group; they were just a "commercial" group that did folk songs. PP&M, as others have pointed out, were a created group, not one that arose naturally.

But if one compares them musically, it's pretty much no contest. Hasn't anyone read Milt Okun's recollections? Okun was music director/arranger/creative consultant for a bunch of people (Chad Mitchell Trio; PP&M; anybody ever hear of the Shaw Brothers? And he recorded with Ellen Steckert.)

Since the Chad Mitchell Trio was mentioned, it's worth noting that he had almost no work to do with them. He brought in a song; they heard it and harmonized it themselves, because they could sing.

PP&M couldn't. Okun had to work out their parts and sing them in their ears, repeatedly, until they got it. Mary Travers couldn't even stay on pitch!

Instrumentally, all three of the original KT were competent, and Dave Guard was more than that. Peter Yarrow was a fairly good guitarist, Noel Stookey an adequate-but-no-more rhythm guitarist, and Mary Travers was a singer who couldn't even stay on pitch.

What people like is a matter of taste, but in terms of building blocks, the original KT had a lot more going for it. I think all that was good about PP&M came from Milt Okun (which might explain why the reunion was less successful; when they reunited, they had a different arranger).

Oh... and you might want to look up why PP&M was broken up. I use that word advisedly. It wasn't voluntary.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Pappy Fiddle
Date: 01 Dec 24 - 09:54 PM

I think it's an exercise in futility to debate which musicians are better, but we can have some fun. I asked
ChatGPT the following:

==============
The Monkees were a band created by a corporation. The Kingston Trio was a singing trio. Were they created by a corporation?

ChatGPT:

The Kingston Trio were not created by a corporation in the same way as The Monkees. The Kingston Trio was formed in 1957 by Dave Guard, Bob Shane, and Nick Reynolds, who were college students with an interest in folk music. They gained popularity through their performances and recordings, and their success led to their being signed by a record label. Unlike The Monkees, who were specifically created for a TV show and assembled by a production company, The Kingston Trio was an organic formation of musicians who were signed to a label due to their existing popularity and musical talent.
==============

I leave it to the reader to ask about the others.

ChatGPT and other AIs do not understand stuff. They just collect and organize text that they are fed, using rules that they develop in response to numerical rewards. So it's basically a summary of what 50 million monkees are saying.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 08:48 AM

KT, for the simple reason that they inspired Brian Wilson. I wooed my first gf singing I Get Around (I bet you do, she laughed)

KT, IMO, was created, (CBS, Life), and probably for political reasons, (got the whole country singing about hanging! weird).

As far as that other trio goes, sure they were created but can you blame a guy for making a few clams on the latest thing and bringing a little joy into the world in the process?

BTW, I read that The Beach Boys have an unreleased version of Raspberries and Strawberries

And why, Robert asks, a trait of the Irish is teaching and sometimes the 7th graders have to help out the 3rd graders. Here's an apple madam ( - :

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 08:57 AM

Pappy Fiddle wrote-

The Kingston Trio was an organic formation of musicians who were signed to a label due to their existing popularity and musical talent.
======

For me the only measure of an artist is wether or not I want to listen to them. Considering origins is an academic exercise that adds nothing to my enjoyment of the music. Just my opinion, I can see why others might be interested in that stuff.

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Dec 24 - 09:19 AM

For a moment, I thought this was a thread about PP Arnold, Madonna, and KT Tuntstall.
;-))

Subject: RE: Battle of the Folk Bands: PP&M vs. KT
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 03 Dec 24 - 06:31 AM

FGS pistols at dawn?