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BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
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Subject: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse) From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM From the previous thread (click):
Posted By: Jim Carroll 28-Nov-09 - 01:34 PM Thread Name: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse) Subject: BS: Suffer The Little Children.... The events in Ireland over the last few days seem to have passed the rest of the world by (or maybe they hasve been filed under the category 'The love that dare not speak its name'). Following on from the Ryan report on child abuse, the Govenment has just released the results of the Murphy Enquiry into abuse in the Diocease of Dublin. The report states that not only have clerics been raping and sexually and physically abusing children placed in their care routinely and on a huge scale for over thirty years, but their crimes have been systematically and deliberately covered up by the heirarchy of the church over the periods of office of 4 archbishops. Priests observed to be a risk to children have been moved on to other parishes to 'carry on the work of god' and their crimes have been spiritually excused from being a sin by the inventing of the state of 'mental reservations' for the perpetrators. Complaints of abuse have been ignored by government authorities and by the the police, who quite often reported them back to the diocese. Reports of abuse sent to The Vatican were ignored under the excuse that they should have been submitted "via the correct diplomatic channels". Surely it's about time that these criminals and their accomplices were prosecuted for their crimes. And isn't it about time that the church - any church - be barred from holding any position of authority other than that of giving religious guidance to those who wish to receive it. Jim Carroll I received the following from a friend in Ireland: The current bishop of Limerick, who was heavily criticised in the recent Dublin child abuse report for his actions as an auxiliary bishop in Dublin, has gone to Rome to offer his resignation. It is likely there will be more. I'm still puzzled by all this - and I think a lot of very active Catholics (including priests and nuns) are puzzled by all the deceit in the upper ranks. These cover-ups seemed to have happened even in dioceses where the bishops were pretty good guys. I keep trying to think up theories - here's one I thought of tonight: in all the dioceses where I've been involved in the Catholic Church, the least-likable priests are the ones who get the jobs "downtown" in the bishop's office. Some are downright creepy. They get those jobs because they aren't suited for parish work, and then the few normal people "downtown" leave because they can't stand working with the creepy ones. So, in most places I've seen, the priests in the parishes hate the people in the bishops' offices - and many of those creepy functionaries become auxiliary bishops and sometimes even heads of dioceses. They get promoted out of parish work because they can't hack it in day-to-day contact with real human beings. My Irish friend also said it appears the current Archbishop (Martin) is acting as the Pope's enforcer on this one. I get the impression that Pope Benedict has sent out several new bishops of unquestioned integrity, starting with O'Malley in Boston, to set things straight in dioceses where things have been sick for a long time. I didn't like John Paul II (and my Irish-born pastor agrees with me), and I get a lot of flak from Catholics who saw him as saintly, but I think he appointed a lot of oppressive bishops who made this problem far worse than it should have been. I think Benedict is taking the problem seriously. So, let's carry on, and see if we can keep the personal squabbles out of this thread. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 07 Dec 09 - 01:38 PM It is probably worth noting that Dónal Murray, the bishop of Limerick, in his response to the publication of the Murphy report stated he, in his own mind, had done nothing wrong and saw no reason to tender his resignation. A campaign of support mounted by priests and lay people from his diocese was mounted immediately. It soon became clear though that he would be the one to bear the brunt of the reaction to the report, scapegoat was used by some commentators(not correctly I would think, his actions in the handling of one case were described in the report as 'inexcusable'). It would be sad though if his head was the only one to roll, out of all responsible for the cover ups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM Joe, it's not just the upper ranks. It permeates right through all levels of the hierarchy here. Those upper ranks are simply the visible echelon who possess the power to cover things up, perpetrate the spin, re-locate the offenders. Etc. That whole "rank" question is a side-road. This or that Bishop of Wherever is not the vital issue, and if only his head rolls, it will let a lot of others off the chopping block. The rot goes way deeper - and it's not rooted in being Irish, or being Catholic, but in good old (or bad old) human nature. To excuse one sector while faulting the other is to utterly miss the point. It's about a forceful network linking arms and looking after its own when the need arises. With all this focus on Bishops (I mean their focus, Joe, not yours), the "S" word that comes to my mind is not scapegoat but smokescreen. You wrote in a previous post: During my tour of Ireland several years ago, I was struck by the severity of Irish Catholicism. We American Catholics are generally a pretty happy bunch (and not prone to blind obedience), but the Catholic Church seemed dour and dreary and rigid in Ireland. I have to admit that it did not seem like a healthy or joyful atmosphere. "Authority" and "obedience" were terms that seemed to fit well into the Irish Catholic Church. It comes down to one thing. TOO MUCH POWER. And it did what power is famously said to do. It's easy not to be "prone to blind obedience" when you have some choices. Not so easy when you're under a virtual dictatorship with nowhere to go, or enough money. That's how it was here for most of the 20th century, until things loosened up economically and socially in the middle 90s. In America you have several mainstream religions, and many alternative ones, influencing the national consciousness, and simply by their numbers these serve to balance each other out and give variety to people's thinking, because from the start not everyone believes the same things. A friend from California tells me her class at school (in the mid 1950s) had a healthy mix of Jewish kids, Protestants kids of every stripe, Catholic kids, plus a Buddhist and a Hindu (who were accepted by the others perfectly well). This HAS to make a difference to the way human minds develop, which in turn affects how societies develop. Here, until very recently, the overwhelming majority of the population has been Catholic. And white. Those few who weren't Catholic and white were Protestant and white, or Jewish and white. And the Church had a stranglehold not only on people's spiritual life but also their children's education; because for much of the 20th century the impoverished State could not afford to compete with the Church (even if it had wanted to, which it didn't) in the field of learning. Throughout childhood our young were emotionally blackmailed with guilt and damnation and You'll-Go-to-Hell-If... for some of the simplest, most natural desires and pleasures. From an early age they were trained to think and do as they're told to think and do, or else. Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man. No kidding. Because there WAS no other significant religious authority in Ireland, it meant the Church had the field all to itself, plus an unconscionable amount of power over people's minds in non-spiritual matters as well (not to mention financial resources beyond the reach of the ordinary parishioner). The populace was cowed into having large families they couldn't hope to support or house (with women's bodies and spirits worn out before middle age) to keep up the numbers of the obeying flock; or travelling any distance and terrain to get to Mass because to miss it was a mortal sin, right up there with murder. A friend's parents walked to church (few people could afford cars then) a 16-mile round trip, in rural Donegal, in winter. He tells me that what he remembers is not the doctrinal teaching, but the exhaustion on his mother's and father's faces. There also was not at that time the constitutional separation between Church and State that there always should be, where the two keep each other in check rather than colluding in a too-mighty alliance. With the government and religion in close co-operation, there was quite simply nothing else on the horizon that had any force to act effectively. Without power, you cannot challenge. You can only suffer the consequences of displeasing the tyrant. MichaelR made a good point, which I heartily agree with, and so do many people here: LET THE CLERGY MARRY and allow them a healthy and permitted outlet for their sexual energies. Those energies are not going to go away if you try to stifle them, they just become warped and twisted. Which is precisely what happened. No one had sufficient strength to go against the organisation, so it simply closed ranks and moved the offenders to do it again in pastures new. Guest from Sanity replied to MichaelR (in part): michaelr: "I'd like someone in this discussion to address the point I made a while ago: celibacy is at the root of the problem . . ." Okay, I'll address it. 1. If you're horney you can always jerk off! 2. If you find a cute nun, you can do it discreetly,, which some do. 3. If you can't find a cute nun, and want to keep it discrete, and in the church, find an ugly one. 4. If you go without the clergy garb, you can find someone in a bar. 5. You can commit adultery with a parishioner. 6. All of the above, are a cure for celibacy. 7. You can find another priest or young boy, and do homosexual things with them. But apart from No. 1 (and for some, this includes No. 1), the above all mean that you have to break some vow or rule or taboo, therefore you are doing Wrong as well as having to live a lie. Those are not healthy choices. If a vow can be tossed aside whenever convenient, what value has it? If it has no value, why bother with it at all? You don't want the most powerful players in your community - the clergy - to be tormented by guilt-inducing hormonal drives, because those will find an outlet, one way or the other, and be kept hidden ever after in soul-rotting deceit. And they're the ones who swing the weight in society, not you. Thank God (literally) that times are better now, our children freer. Nos. 2-5 can also leave some very real consequences in their wake, such as illegitimate children - who until recently were sentenced to a horrible and hellish life. (The Magdalen Laundries and industrial schools need a chapter of their own in this shameful story.) The evil of child-rape exists in every society. But here it grew monstrous, nourished by secrecy; and if some viable alternatives or rights of protest been available to the general citizenry, I believe it would not have been so widespread, or so locked in hypocrisy. It boiled down to - as it always does - Because We Can. Jim's post does not exaggerate. And I fully echo his closing sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM The same problems have been found in the United States and Canada as well. Adding to Caitlin rua's list- Hire a willing female caretaker or cook-housekeeper. I remember that there were a number of jokes about this. When I was in high school in Santa Fe, which is the seat of an archdiocese, there were a group of Belgian young men there, priests in training. Some would jump the fence at night and join us, both Catholic and Protestant (or heathen) at our immature revels. Many gallons of the cheap (at that time) Gallo red wine, and the occasional 'bad' girl, were consumed. Very little of the latter, however, but much boastful talk. I agree, for normally sexed humans, celibacy is not natural. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM I'd like to thank Joe for restarting this discussion and offer my apologies for my part in its previous downfall, which I promise was not intended. Joe - these Bishops of whom you speak - is it possible that some of them may have been abusers and promoted from the priesthood as a way of preventing them? Could this have had a knock-on effect at higher levels over the years? Interesting points about celibacy above, and I can see how it could easily be a contributory factor indirectly, but these particular priests were far from celibate - indeed noticeably less so than many of us who aren't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM A lot of them aren't. (Often it's an ordinary affair with an adult woman, who is at least in a stronger position than a helpless child.) I probably should have used a different word, because I didn't mean that they are celibate, but that it's a requirement - a demand I believe many people simply can't live up to, nor should have to. If sex were allowed to be a natural accepted part of a priest's life there would be far less perversion, far less shame and far less hypocrisy than has been the case. (Please note: by "perversion" I mean an adult imposing him/herself on a child REGARDLESS of the combination of genders.) But the celibacy thing is only part of the issue, and not the main part at that. The real driving engine behind it is the power and control the Church had over Irish society until recently. Power, with no checks and balances, corrupts. And it did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 07 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM I agree with you. As I said in the other thread: too much power in the hands of the wrong people for the wrong reasons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:22 PM "too much power in the hands of the wrong people for the wrong reasons." Absolutely. The problem of trying to lay the blame at door of one particular Pope, or Archbishop, or priest, is that it has been going on for so long. I don't know if the Ryan Report restricted itself to any particular time frame, but those who saw the film 'Song For A Raggy Boy' based on Patrick Galvin's autobiographical trilogy, will know that similar events were taking place at least as far back as the end of the 1930s, and almost certainly further back than that. The physical brutality that took place in these institutions has hardly been touched on, though there have been several heart-rending personal accounts in the letter pages of the Irish Times. A local singer friend here, now in her mid-eighties, was beaten so severely around the head by a priest when she was in her teens that her eardrum burst and she permanently lost the use of that ear. Her crime - she attended a house dance. Unbelieveably, the church objected to these dances - which took place in people's homes and in the open air at specially designated crossroads - on the grounds that men and women attending such events unsupervised would be open to 'temptations of the flesh'. All of these events can be traced directly to an abuse of power and have nothing to do with sexuality. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM Were those the same crossroads that they buried unmarried mothers and suicides at? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:45 PM The one thing I do question most vigourously about abuse in churches by priests/ministers, is why it is judged by the respective churches. It's a criminal matter and belongs in courts of law. THEN let it can be judged by the churches involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:50 PM Jim, I'm not sure you caught what I was trying to say - the bishop's offices (chancery) in many Catholic dioceses I've encountered, are staffed with creepy priests who aren't the type who can make it in parish life. Parishes are largely isolated from one another, especially in dioceses where the chancery is corrupt. So it is possible for parish priests not to know what is going on in other parishes. But yes, I can see that many diocesan chancery offices are repressive places where secrets may be jealously guarded - with even the bishop unaware of much of what's going on. Yeah, celibacy is a burden for a lot of my priest friends, and I suppose many have been romantically tied to someone of the same or another sex at one time or another - but most parish priests I know deal with celibacy pretty well most of the time. I don't believe they spend their lives resenting celibacy or scheming to break their vows, even if they slip now and then. If they're halfway decent priests, they're compassionate, generous people who are able to make friends - and their lay friends do a lot to help them get through life on an even keel. They tend to stay away from priests and others from the "repressive" parishes. Some parishes are healthy, and some are not. Healthy priests tend to do their best to stay away from unhealthy parishes - it's a matter of survival. I don't know if there's a good psychological profile of a priest who molests or abuses children. I would think it would be the creepy, swishy ones - but I have been surprised to learn that many of the priests I knew who were accused of molestation, were people who seemed to me to be quite normal in high school and college. They weren't the creepy ones who ended up in administrative positions. The one I knew best was Jim Tully, a seminary classmate of mine who was ordained a priest with the Xavierian Missionary Fathers. Jim was a popular, upbeat, talented, fun-loving guy who had a lot of friends. I see that the victim who has pursued Tully most vehemently, was 21 at the time Tully (age 40) allegedly molested him - Tully was eventually convicted of disorderly conduct. There were two other reported victims - I gather they were college students. It appears my friend did something wrong, but it also appears that the victims weren't children. The anti-abuse organizations are working hard against Jim Tully because he is still functioning as a priest, albeit apparently in administrative positions. But I haven't seen good information about what he did that was horrendous or that involved children. Another of my classmates (I won't tell his name) is no longer functioning as a priest - but that's all it says about him at http://www.bishop-accountability.org/. I recently got back in contact with him through the Internet. All I know is that he's gay and HIV-positive, but no evidence he's a child molester. I think I knew about a dozen of the priests listed on the child molester database of bishop-accountability.org. I checked the stories of all of them as far as I could. Some, like Jim Tully, were borderline cases - there was evidence of sexual misconduct, but the complainant was legally an adult at the time of the incident. Others sounded pretty bad. I've known hundreds of priests in my life, and about a dozen showed up on the database of offenders. Of those dozen, only one struck me as being a potential problem - and he's one of those where there was no report other than the statement that he was no longer allowed to function. So, it's a puzzlement. There are no easy answers. But I do think that my insights on diocesan chanceries are valid - some are places where coverups could very easily happen. And from what I hear, the chancery of the Archdiocese of Dublin, like the one in Boston, was like that. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:05 PM 999, in most cases in most dioceses, credible reports of offenses are reported to law enforcement authorities. But what's a credible report? In my previous parish, the church was vandalized - someone had spray-painted child molestation allegations against a priest on the church walls. The crime of vandalism was reported, but not the child molestation. Should it have been? There was an anonymous post at Mudcat a few years ago that alleged that I was a child molester because I was a Catholic - should I have been reported to law enforcement authorities? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:17 PM Joe, I read your post, and have to re-iterate, that there are a "few bad apples in the bunch", Unfortunately they give the rest of the barrel a bad name. What really is unfair, is that, unthinking impulsive people, forget, or disregard, all the good things the Catholic Church has done, and is still doing. Yes, they have had a checkered past, in some places in history, but, to all those ready to jump on them, and fault the whole of the church, because of sexual misconduct, by a few, and the cover-ups that follow, if you are really that concerned, then add your support, to those who wish to clean up their ranks, and correct the wrongs that have been done, without pointing a condemning finger, at the rest of them, who are trying to correct things for the betterment. Ironic, how the same voices, who condemn the whole of the church, for pedophilia, forget the churches stance on abortions, homosexuality, divorce, and broken families! They forget the excellent school systems they have, the hospitals, orphanages, and charitable work performed by very dedicated people. Mother Theresa, the icon of selfless devotion to the poor and needy, was also Catholic. So, to all those, who are so quick on the draw, to categorize the whole of the Catholic Church, as 'toleraters' of priests who are homosexual pedophiles, let's look at the whole picture, as Joe pointed out! Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Dec 09 - 10:19 PM We cross posted. While I was typing my last post, and broke for dinner, Joe posted his other two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:31 AM Caitlín "Were those the same crossroads that they buried unmarried mothers and suicides at?" Not forgetting the children who died unbaptised and were denied a burial place in sanctified ground. More later - getting over the article in the I.T. today which descrbibes the investigation of a priest by the church authorities who judged him to be innocent. Hew was later found to have abused 20 girls. One of his practices was to insert a crucifix into the vagina and anus of his victim!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 08 Dec 09 - 06:40 AM 999, you need to remember that here, at that time, no court judge would have acted against the Church. There are major differences between the Ireland of those years and America; also between Irish Catholicism and American Catholicism, largely because of the differences in those societies. I wish people would take more account of that fact. The populace here did not in practice have the same basic citizens' rights, whatever it did or didn't say in the law books. We were until very recently a MONO-culture, something the US has never been. A large percentage of the total population lived in rural isolation, in a rigidly enclosed society where things were simply not talked about, even when "everyone knew". I think you may not appreciate the strength of this invisible governing: you could pretty much expect censure from your neighbours if you complained to them. You cannot imagine this sort of fear-ruled conformity unless you've lived it or at least seen it first hand. In any case the political government was not separated from the Church in the ways that it should have been, so they neither protected nor helped the victims. Yes, Sanity, of course they were bad apples. But the problem is that it was not simply "a few". They proliferated because such crimes were too easy to get away with, with no outside authority to answer to. And, of course, what constitutes child molesting? It's a phrase that has become devalued because it can mean anything now. And I hate that people throw it around like a Frisbee, aiming it at innocent Catholics like Joe for simply daring to raise perfectly fair questions, in a spirit of genuinely wanting to understand. The crimes being spoken of here - and recalled by survivors - are the physical perpetration of sexual acts on those younger and weaker. People who have not done, or facilitated, this are not child molesters. You can read the stories of the survivors. That is, those who haven't committed suicide in despair, which many have. The statistics are appalling. There are of course a huge number of honest and dedicated priests (the nuns are pretty much gone, ditto the Christian Brothers) and for their suffering because of this sordid saga, my heart aches. But IT HAPPENED. And for too long was swept under the carpet or given only cosmetic attention. Because not everyone was guilty doesn't mean that it was only a few. There was too much power, held by too many, for too long, for it to be only a few. We're never really going to know the true numbers. No, Sanity, we didn't "forget the churches stance on abortions, homosexuality, divorce, and broken families". They have very clear rulings on these things. But where is all this decisive clarity when it concerns one of their own, a rapist among their ranks? All they did for punishment was move him to another area, so he could do it again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM It is an insult to the victims of clerical abuse to write it off as "a few bad apples" - it was a culture of abuse which permeated the church from the highest to the lowest over generations, carried out and/or hidden by the church as a whole - not forgetting the state's role in all this. Many of the present day clergy have recognised this in their scramble for forgiveness. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Dec 09 - 01:53 PM I have a number of friends who are Irish-born priests and nuns. They have lived in the Sacramento area since they were in their early to mid-twenties. They are now between the ages of 60 and 80. The nuns did not go home until the late 1960s or early 1970s, but most go back to Ireland every year or two now. I've asked several about growing up Catholic in Ireland, and they give me the impression it was not so universally dire as Jim says. They do not deny the problems, but I get the impression that most of my friends had a good experience of the Catholic Church in Ireland during their childhood. Mind you, these are people who have been priests and nuns all their lives, so you would think they would think well of the Church or would have left it by now. And most of my priest and nun friends are liberals who are not afraid to question the Catholic Church when there's a need for it. I did know one Irish-born priest of French ancestry Father Tony Gurnell who was more critical. Tony was born in County Cork in 1929, was ordained in 1964, and died in Sacramento in 2007. He was a brilliant man, and quite a student of history. He came from a family that was associated with the IRA, and Tony was not quiet about the harm he thought the British brought to Ireland. Tony claimed it was the British who brought the heresy of Jansenism to Ireland, bringing severity and harshness to an Irish Catholicism that had once been far gentler. Tony said that once the British decided they could not defeat the Catholic Church in Ireland, they build the biggest Catholic seminary in the world in Ireland, and staffed it with Jansenist-influenced French priests. Jansenists were similar to Calvinists in some of their thinking, emphasizing predestination and the depravity of human nature. Tony said this seminary produced thousands of priests over the years, a significant percentage of the priest of Ireland - and these priests brought the harsh severity of their education to all of Ireland. Tony lived his whole life with passion; but during his last years, he seemed to be driven by a desire to bring a sense of joy to Catholic communities, wherever he was. Tony was very critical of the Catholic Church in Ireland, and I think he studied the situation there much more closely than the other Irish priests and nuns I know. I wish Fr. Tony were alive to join in this discussion. I'm sure he'd have interesting insights. I bought Tony's almost-new Honda Civic from his estate, and I think of him almost every time I drive the car. He was a brilliant, joyful, gentle man. His father and grandfather were famous stained-glass artisans, and the family was known in Ireland because of their artistry. So, while I cannot deny what Jim says about the Irish Catholic Church, I also have good, honest priest and nun friends who had a positive experience growing up Catholic in Ireland. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 08 Dec 09 - 02:05 PM There's a strong class element in all of this Joe (as has been pointed out in the earlier thread as well as the newspaper reports). Priests and nuns were mostly drawn from middle-class families and the abuse was perpetrated on working-class children. I think this goes somewhat towards explaining why your friends have good experiences of life growing up in RC Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smedley Date: 08 Dec 09 - 02:23 PM GfS - the appalling child abuse inflicted was against girls as well as boys, so calling it 'homosexual paedophilia' is not the whole story. It is, however, consistent with your obsessive anti-homosexual prejudice that seeps across a range of threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 03:41 PM If the British built the biggest Catholic seminary in the world in Ireland as an anti-Catholic strategy, where is it, and why did the Catholic church either let them do it or not notice? I'm afraid that sounds like nonsense to me. Admittedly the British are far from stainless regarding Ireland, but when it comes down to who has oppressed the Irish more, I think the Catholic church is the clear winner. This abuse has obviously been going on for generations and is based on power and opportunity more than sexuality. More sadism than sex, and it should perhaps be remembered that sadism was named after a Catholic. We know not all Catholics are 'bad', that's obvious, but Catholicism is by definition all it does and everyone it encompasses. The cycle of child abuse has to be broken somehow, and the only sure way to do that is to remove the opportunity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 08 Dec 09 - 03:58 PM Kids weren't abused because of any theological philosophy, they were abused because of biological drives that were not properly monitored or kept in check, by those who had the means to carry it out. Citing the British as being responsible when they were no longer even here also smacks a bit of projecting the blame. I find this line of reasoning unconvincing. By the way, I see that Fr. Gurnell was originally from St. Joseph's Drive, Montenotte, Cork city. That's very near where I used to live, and I went up and down St. Joseph's Drive all the time, to play music with a friend who lived (and still lives) right at the head of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:36 PM Smeds:"GfS - the appalling child abuse inflicted was against girls as well as boys, so calling it 'homosexual paedophilia' is not the whole story...." True, However, the stats are far far more with priests, and boys. Sex with a child = paedophilia Sex with same gender = homosexuality You figure it out. Don't let your 'personal' bias get in the way of calling it like it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM I think the majority of the abuse was bisexual, and that it was child abuse, not paedophilia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,999 Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:19 PM I agree with you, Joe. An allegation is not proof. However, when the truth is established, why is the church--not just Catholic, but also Anglican, Baptist, etc--allowed to shelter the abusers from criminal prosecution? Allowed is the wrong word, but as far as I can see there just ain't too many men of the cloth doing time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:32 PM The ONLY things that ALL the abusers have in common is that they are ALL Christians, ALL clergymen and ALL CATHOLICS. What are we to make of that? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:37 PM It quack, waddles, and looks uncannily duck-like.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:40 PM Jim Carroll:"The ONLY things that ALL the abusers have in common is that they are ALL Christians, ALL clergymen and ALL CATHOLICS. What are we to make of that? Jim Carroll" That's right, Blame all Christians! This stupidity, and infantile logic speaks itself! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Alice Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:51 PM I've worked with people who have been abused in new religious groups, cults, established churches, whatever you want to call them, and as I posted before, abuse of power is an issue in any group that does not have checks and balances and where those in power exert control over what people believe about eternity. This is nothing new and nothing limited to Christian or Catholic churches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 09:30 PM "That's right, Blame all Christians! This stupidity, and infantile logic speaks itself!" I couldn't agree more, but with respect, I'm certain that isn't what Jim meant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 09 - 09:55 PM Smokey, I certainly hope not!...but on here, you just might ever know, for sure! Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:06 PM I'd misunderstood you - sorry.. It's very late here Smokeystan.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 08 Dec 09 - 10:09 PM It's very late here IN Smokeystan.. I give up.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Dec 09 - 11:06 PM Smokey, yes, its very late, and hopefully not too late. My Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smedley Date: 09 Dec 09 - 02:04 AM GfS - Jim spoke the whole truth (the abusers are all Catholics). You major on partial truth (most of the abusers abuse boys, but many abuse girls). This is not me speaking from bias, it is me observing and identifying hypocrisy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:01 AM "I'm certain that isn't what Jim meant." It certainly isn't what I meant and our 'Sanitising' friend knows it - only it doesn't suit his role as apologist for the abuse that took place to admit it. The sooner we get away from trying to pin this on homosexual behaviour, or 'a few bad apples' (or even the thousands that there actually were), or bad clegymen and neglectful (even co-operative) heirarchy, and examine it from the point of view it is now being examined here in Ireland, the quicker we'll understand what has taken place and how. Throughout the 20th century the Catholic church got itself (or was placed) into a position where it influenced virtually every aspect of day-to-day Irish life - the home, marriage, birth, death, the food, and when it was to be eaten, the education of children, the music....... and relevant to what has happened here, what went on in the Irish bedroom. If any good has come from this horrendous affair, it is that the stranglehold has now been broken and will never again be re-applied. If you want to know about the abuse that went on, read the Ryan Report, or any decent condensed version of it, or the accounts of what happened at Ferns and Letterfrack - and brace yourselves for a long overdue report on the Magdelene Laundries. If you want to know how, and to what extent it was covered up, read the Murphy Report. Interesting insight into this in The Irish Times the day before yesterday. A priest was found to be a child abuser by his superiors, and was moved on to several parishes, until his behaviour got out of hand and was sent to a mission in Brazil. He was found to have made his home above a créche in Sao Paulo - now doesn't that give 'care in the community' a whole fresh meaning? The question yet unanswered is WHAT HAPPENS NOW? From a legal point of view the law has to deal with the abusers and their accomplices as they would any other serious and dangerous criminals. From a spiritual point of view, if it is to survive, the church has to deal with the abusers and their accomplices immediately (judging by an incident in the US, thanks to Vatican intervention, a priest found abusing can be defrocked - a bishop found to have been an abuser cannot). From a civil point of view, the church must never again be allowed the malignant influence it once had and abused - and it must never again be given access to the bodies and minds of children. Ireland was described in an article a few days ago as "A Catholic country, but not necessarily a Christian one" - there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that this is the case. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:59 PM From RTÉ NEWS Wednesday, 9th December 2009 20:30 BISHOPS 'HUMBLY' APOLOGISE FOR ABUSE The Irish Bishops' Conference has issued an apology to all those who were abused by priests. At the end of the first day of the bishops' winter conference a statement was issued saying: 'We, as bishops, apologise to all those who were abused by priests as children, their families and to all people who feel rightly outraged and let down by the failure of moral leadership and accountability that emerges from the Report'. They went on to say that they are deeply shocked by the 'scale and depravity of abuse' described in the Report. From THE IRISH TIMES Wednesday, December 9, 2009 20:09 "We are shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the Archdiocese of Dublin and recognise that this indicates a culture that was widespread in the church," the bishops said in a statement. "The avoidance of scandal, the preservation of the reputations of individuals and of the Church, took precedence over the safety and welfare of children. This should never have happened and must never be allowed to happen again. We humbly ask for forgiveness." "We, as bishops, apologise to all those who were abused by priests as children, their families and to all people who feel rightly outraged and let down by the failure of moral leadership and accountability that emerges from the report," the statement said. Responding to what they said were the "many concerns" raised about the use of a practice known as 'mental reservation' by clergy to avoid telling the truth, the bishops said: "We wish to categorically state that it has no place in covering up evil. Charity, truthfulness, integrity and transparency must be the hallmark of all our communications." From BBC NEWS Wednesday, 9 December 2009 20:47 Irish bishops have asked to be forgiven for the "failure of moral leadership" identified by a report into clerical child abuse in Dublin archdiocese. The Murphy report found that church authorities had covered up child abuse. Also known as the "Commission of Investigation Report into the Archdiocese of Dublin", the Murphy report stated that Catholic leaders had prioritised the preservation of the church's reputation above the welfare and safety of the children in their care. They also said that they were "shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin". The bishops added that they recognised the report's findings indicated a culture of cover-up was "widespread" in the church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:18 PM The one Eleanor Shanley sings (same title, different song) packs even more punch: Magdalen Laundry Johnny Mulhern & Con Cop For seventeen years I've been Scrubbing this washboard Ever since the fellas started in after me My mother poor soul didn't know what to do The Canon said "Child there's a place for you" Now I'm serving my time at the Magdalen Laundry I'm towing the line at the Magdalen Laundry There's girls from the country Girls from the town Their bony white elbows going up and down The reverend mother as she glides through the place A tight little smile on the side of her face She's running the show at the Magdalen Laundry She's got nowhere to go but the Magdalen Laundry Oh Lord won't you let me Don't you let me Won't you let me wash away the stain Oh Lord won't you let me wash away the stain I'm washing altar linen and cassocks and stoles I'm scrubbing long johns for these holy joes We know where they've been when They're not saving souls What the red wine split what the Smooth hand poured We're squeezing it out at the Magdalen Laundry We're scrubbing it out at the Magdalen Laundry Oh Lord won't you let me Don't you let me Won't you let me wash away the stain Oh Lord won't you let me wash away the stain Sunday afternoon when the Lord's at rest It's off to the prom, watch the waves roll by We're chewing on our toffees hear The seagulls squawk "There go the maggies" hear the children talk Through our faces they stare at The Magdalen Laundry In our eyes see the glare of the Magdalen Laundry Oh Lord won't you let me Don't you let me Won't you let me wash away the stain Oh Lord won't you let me wash away the stain |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM The reason I sound like I'm talking to myself is that there was an unidentified Guest post and they're not allowed. Just to provide some continuity, he or she cited the Joni Mitchell song "Magdalen Laundry" as sung by Christy Moore and put up a You Tube link. I found it (third hit if you type "Magdalene Laundry" in the search box). But I got side-tracked by the one above it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbPyvF9fnhg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM Anybody care to guess when that place shut down? http://silverstealth.fotopic.net/c1509609.html Late 1996 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: mg Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:33 PM I will say again that it is not just bad priests and worse bishops. It is the whole culture..not just Ireland but certainly there and its offshoots in US and elsewhere. Someone raised those priests. Someone repressed them beyond repair in early childhood and adolescence. Not only the Christian Brothers. Saintly mothers, themselves repressed etc. And they did it because most of them, I bet every last one of them, thought that is what God wanted. For all I know, and I am of that same culture, more or less (with added Baptist repression) it is what God wanted. It is hard to break off with what God wanted and say this is evil, or this does not make sense, or this hurts people..not when it gets to the child abuse but in the repression that leads up to it..mixed in with the overworking of Catholic fathers, the overreproductio of Catholic mothers..the whole birth control thing. It is all related. Can't we Catholics think for ourselves. no. Not really. Try it sometime. I had to shut my brain down early on and so did most of them. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM "the church must never again be allowed the malignant influence it once had and abused - and it must never again be given access to the bodies and minds of children." (JC) Globally and without exception. I could not agree more. I do have some sympathy for the genuine innocents in the Catholic church, assuming they exist, but that is impossible to determine and I don't think it is right to take a risk of that magnitude with children. I find it very hard to see how anyone with a conscience could continue to support such an institution. "We humbly ask for forgiveness." Some sins are just too big to be forgiven. One priest alone admitted abusing 100 children; I can't even think of an appropriate punishment. Forgiveness my arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:59 PM Mg: From three re-readings, I found it hard to decipher your meaning. Here goes: "It is the whole culture" [where] "someone repressed those priests"..."because..[they] thought that is what God wanted".."It is hard to break off with what God wanted" "but [the] overworking of Catholic Fathers & overproduction of Catholic Mothers & the Birth Control thing [is all related]" So, are you saying that Irish Priests abuse/d children because they *believed* God wanted it? Bacause I'm not sure what relationship that has to "overworked fathers" & "overproducing mothers" or "birth control" etc. Honestly I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I'd love to see equivalent statistics from celibate Buddhist Monks regards Child Abuse though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Lox Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM Any system that lacks accountability is a bad one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Penny S. Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM Just a reminder - along with all the other groups who enable (whether deliberately or not) and then do not allow abuse to be dealt with appropriately (there have been members of non-Christian religions whose leaders have abused) - there was a children's home run by Protestants in the North where worse than individuals abusing went on, wasn't there? And I gather there were analogies to the Magdalen Laundries in Britain, as well. It wasn't just Ireland. When the film about the laundries came out, there was a footnote somewhere, that the buildings had been converted into old people's homes, and there, both the old inmates and the nuns were looked after together. I wondered about those nuns, and how genuine their vocations had been, and how they looked on the girls who had known, however briefly, what they had been denied. There was a terrible poison at work in those places. And when you look back at what the original Celtic form of Christianity had been like, and how those men and women had gone out to spread the Gospel - they would not have been able to return the faith to Europe if they had been peddling one so lacking in joy. And it is not for those of us not touched by the evil to forgive or withhold forgiveness. What an appalling mess. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 09 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM And it is not for those of us not touched by the evil to forgive or withhold forgiveness. Point taken Penny, but are we not all touched by it to some degree, as humans? I rather resent being made to feel ashamed of my species. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: caitlin rua Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:24 PM >When the film about the laundries came out, there was a footnote somewhere, that the buildings had been converted into old people's homes, and there, both the old inmates and the nuns were looked after together. What a lovely thought. The site of the above Cork laundry is being turned into a luxury development of 200 homes. They're keeping the little graveyard, though. >It is expected that the average price of a two-bedroom apartment at the scheme will be €450,000. Any of 'em going to be used for social housing schemes, do you think? Somebody made 20 million out of that bit of real estate. - - - Redevelopment of The Good Shepherd, Convent, Cork 200 new homes The long-awaited redevelopment of Cork's Good Shepherd Convent, a former Magdalene laundry, has been given the go-ahead by An Bord Pleanála. Over 200 high-end residential units will be built on the elevated eight-acre site which is beside Cork City Gaol in the Sunday's Well area of the city... In 2005 Cork-based developers Frinailla Ltd purchased the site for €20 million. Going against the recommendation of its own inspector, An Bord Pleanála has now granted permission for a large residential scheme, which will see apartments provided in the three listed buildings and further apartments, duplexes and townhouses built on the site. Apartments will range in size from 51-148sq m (550-1,600sq ft) and townhouses will be around 186sq m (2,000sq ft). It is expected that the average price of a two-bedroom apartment at the scheme will be €450,000. The developer had originally sought to build 274 units but this has been reduced to just over 200 by the local authority and the planning board. A graveyard on the site - where more than 300 nuns are buried as well as an unknown number of women who worked in the laundry - will be retained and opened up to the public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 09 Dec 09 - 09:07 PM Don't know about now, but it was still there the last time Google maps were flapping around, because you can see it, if you know what to search for. Go to Google Maps, type in "Cork City Gaol Ireland", a historic prison which is at least honestly-named. Put it on Satellite View and zoom in on the Gaol (Pin A), which close-up looks like two grey crosses enclosed by an oval. The laundry is just next to it, on the right, a cluster of handsome red-brick edifices, burned out since 2003. (Insurance fire?) Study it and weep. The author Frank O'Connor, whose real name was Michael O'Donovan (and whose boyhood home I also used to live near) took the surname O'Connor, in honour of his mother Minnie O'Connor. She and her crippled sister grew up in Good Shepherd - I can't remember whether they were laundry girls or not, but life was still very hard there. He writes of her in his autobiography, and her sufferings through her life are the equal of anything that Angela McCourt ("Angela's Ashes") went through. To be fair, many of these woes were not the fault of the convent, but Frank is bitterly critical of the whole organisation for what she did endure. It's a very poignant read, in two volumes, which I heartily recommend. Volume I deals with his early years - surprise, surprise - and is called "An Only Child". What it brings home to you is just how hard day-to-day existence was for so many of the Irish if they fell into the wrong social or economic category. (Going to be that way again too, considering what today's budget has done to the welfare and health services.) I used to go to parties right around the corner from Good Shepherd, from when I first moved to Ireland in 1991 throughout the decade, and nearly moved into a nice flat near the foot of it. We don't know we're born, do we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Smokey. Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:03 PM When I was little I thought child abuse was my mother's seemingly unreasonable disapproval of toy guns.. We certainly don't know we're born, and I'm glad she's not here to be disillusioned by all this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2 From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Dec 09 - 01:34 AM Smokey says:
Catholic teaching is strongly opposed to any sort of injustice, including physical and sexual abuse of children. In eight years of Catholic seminary training, I was never taught to condone any sort of abuse. Certain individuals in leadership positions have violated those teachings - does that means that I am bound by conscience to abandon MY religious beliefs and hand over MY church to the transgressors? That's absurd! Send them to prison if they committed crimes, but don't tell me I have to give them my church. I have to say that I have a hard time believing in the helplessness of the poor lay people in the face of the powerful and oppressive laity. If a child is abused or molested, why don't his parents speak out? If Father So-and-So is a bastard, why not treat him like the bastard he is? I've certainly told off a good number of bastard priests in my lifetime - why can't other people have an ounce of courage and do the same? And for God's sake, if your child is molested, report the criminal to the police and take your child to get help - don't wait for some institution to do it for you. Yes, there are bastards in the Catholic Church, and there are child molesters in the Catholic Church and in almost every family and institution and community. Punish the people who committed the crimes, and punish them severely - but don't spread the blame and punishment too broadly, because we all are to blame for the ills of our society. It's time to stop all this blame-laying, punish those who are actually criminals, and find a SOLUTION to the problem. -Joe Offer- |
