BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:34 AM

Join a proper thread, and you can have you X-thousandth....

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 12:04 PM

Ekin Deligüz, the German Turkish politician I have quoted above with a plea to her fellow Muslim women to put down the veil has meanwhile received several threats of murder from fellow Muslims.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 02:19 PM

Such lovely people!

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 07:19 AM

Who? All Muslims, or just the ones who made the threats? Or all of us on this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 06:24 PM

heres and interesting take on the veil controversy.

Muazzez Ilmiye Cig, a 92-year-old Turkish archaeologist said bluntly that hijab — Islamic head-scarves that hide women's hair — are not Islamic at all, but a 5,000-year-old Middle Eastern tradition.

All she said was that the head-scarf, now a badge of Muslim identity for devout women in Turkey and elsewhere, was actually first worn five thousand years ago by temple priestesses in Sumeria whose job was to initiate young people into sex. They were not prostitutes; only the daughters of the rich and influential got temple jobs.

The Turkish govt then proceeded to charge her with inciting hatred..
story here

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:55 PM

Religious literalists are just funny (looked at from afar) or dangerous (looked at from near). What they compeltely lack is the ability to be tolerant to a challenge of their world views from other world views.

Tell a Christian literalist about creation myths similar to the one in their book but preceeding that book by centuries they may get angry. What among scholars is a routine statement can be life threatening elsewhere.

At neuropsychological congresses, speculations that Mohammed may have been an epileptic are frequent and common, we can only be gald that so far that, among scholars, well known speculation is still not on the antennae of the Muslim literalists. Compared to that speculation, the Danish caricatures are just small fish. I wouldn't enjoy going to congresses under police escort.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:54 AM

Murder suspect fled Britain 'wearing veil'

The Home Office was last night investigating claims that a prime suspect in the murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky fled the UK by disguising himself as a veiled Muslim woman and escaping to Somalia using his sister's passport.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:46 PM

Girl banned from wearing a chastity ring

A teenage girl banned from wearing a chastity ring in class took her case to Britain's High Court on Friday, arguing that her school had violated her religious freedom.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

Wolfgang's Link Didn't Work for Me

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

The only thing more bizarre than some kid wanting to wear a 'chastity ring' is some school authority wanting to stop her ...

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 08:48 AM

She's lost her case (link to GUARDIAN article)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM

This is an interesting thread. As usual I find myself off topic. I keep thinking of the Amish, especially Amish women. (It's off topic, only because with the Amish there is no issue of covering the face.)

However, in some ways I'm right on topic.

* There are people who *are* uncomfortable speaking with Amish women. I have no doubt that such a person would appreciate the effort if the Amish woman were to change her clothes to fit the norm when chatting with that person.

The Amish woman would *not* do that, for several reasons.
1. Her style of clothing is part of who she is.
2. Changing to fit the norm would be unseemly and immodest and disrespectful, not to be considered.
3. It wouldn't occur to her. If someone were to ask her to change, or if that person were to come out of th house with a change of clothing and ask her to wear them while she is on the premises, the Amish woman would be astonished and offended, even though she would be concilatory and nonconfrontational. There is no question but that she would leave as soon as she comfortably could.
4. If that person would attempt to placate her by reassuring her that the proffered clothing is modest and non-revealing and muted in color, it would make no difference. It would not be part of who she is.

Tunesmith says: "Interestingly, when Muslim women - who insist on wearing the veil - visit/emigrate - to Britain, it's amazing how their religious "rules" are "relaxed" to allow them to reveal their faces to passport control, and thereby gain entry to Britain."

That thought, to an Amish woman, would be an insulting one. The *only* female that would consider it would be a girl already in a rebellious mode, one who is in all likelihood not going to be Amish much longer.

I have known an Amish woman who was in her 80s but felt guilty about the fact that she chose not to wear her 'covering' when she was home alone. She laughed about the illogic but acknowledged the feeling.

Scoville is right when she says: "Most religions who do not follow modern Westernized fashion do so partly to separate themselves from the prevailing culture, anyway (this goes for the Amish, Mennonites, etc., as well)."

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:42 PM

Hutterites do something similar in dress and in education. It is law in Alberta that children attend school until they reach the age of 16. Traditionally--for decades, since school attendance has been enforced--Hutterites remove their kids at the age of 15; that is, they are taken out of school on their 15th birthday, regardless of when that is in the school year. The provincial government has nevr to my knowledge challenged that in court. One of those things that's kept 'quiet'.

Subject: RE: BS: Jack Straw and 'The Veil' controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:53 PM

Peace, it was challenged by the US Amish. In the 40s and 50s they pursued in court the right to remove their children from school at 16. They eventually won.

While I was still a kid the Amish started their own schools. I have no idea of what percentage of Amish kids attend Amish schools; I would imagine that in rural areas where there are few Amish the kids would attend public school, as they did when I was a kid.

By the way, I remember I was 9 years old when it first struck me that if we girls all took off our clothes we would all look alike! Precocious I was not.