BS: Have you changed your religious views?

Subject: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Marion
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:18 PM

For those of you who have changed your religious views in your adult life (whether adopting a religion, leaving a religion, or switching from one religion to another):

What was the most important reason, or the triggering event, that caused you to do so?

There have been some interesting discussions lately about God, religion, and atheism. But when people are arguing about the "First Cause" or "ontological argument" or "Pascal's Wager", it makes me wonder if they actually started believing because they were convinced by these arguments (or stopped believing because they were convinced the arguments were invalid).

My own answer: I used to be a practicing Christian and am now agnostic. The main thing that took me away from Christianity was what I perceived as a lack of social values: from the history of the church (Inquisition, residential schools etc.) to sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia in the Bible. And the main things that kept me in Christianity for as long as they did were aesthetics (liturgy, ceremony, holy days are very appealing to me) and the stories about Jesus in the gospels.

Happy holy week,

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:49 PM

Not really. I am not religious by nature and Catholic by upbringing but only Catholic by genetics on my father's side. I think by nature I would be a fairly good Unitarian or Druid perhaps. I hate the Catholic church's view on birth control and keep saying I would make it the 11th commandment. I hate hate hate the new "music" that has taken over since the Vatican Council. So the liturgy that used to be very nice is now to me just plain wierd and ugly and not resembling anything Catholic at all. So I am obviously a very weak Catholic and don't agree with the basics of how I was trained to believe...but the good news is I try not to eat meat on Friday still...and on GOod Friday, coming this week, if you make the Stations of the Cross you get a plenary indulgence (I do like indulgences). So I have a lot of the paranoia and many of the superstitions and liked at least the old music and traditions but I am basically attending a church that is very odd to me. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:52 PM

I was raised in the Episcopalian Church and accepted the mythology until I was about eight. By the time I was 12 I was pretty certain the world-view embodied in that mythology was pretty flawed and left out much joy, much honest seeing, and much freedom to explore and discover. Since I found these values compelling, I decided to abandon the whole insititution.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:58 PM

My religious views haven't changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM

There's an interesting paragraph in the Bible (in one of the Gospels). The crowds that had been following Jesus had all turned away. They were disappointed. I forget the exact reason why, but perhaps they had expected Jesus to be some kind of political leader and he had said something along the lines of "my kingdom is not of this world" meaning he hadn't come along to be an earthly king, leader of something as small as a political system.
Jesus turned around, a bit sad perhaps that so many had turned away, and asked the 12 apostles (Peter, James, John etc.,) "And will you leave me, too?" Peter answered (for them all) by saying "But, my lord, where shall we go?"
I think that sums up the feeling for many Christians. Once you get a hold of what Jesus is on about, a glimpse of what He's saying, it simply doesn't make sense to go anywhere else anymore. Crazy and all as following Christ may seem at times (in the sense that it often seems to fly in the face of worldly 'wisdom') it makes a lot more sense than the alternatives.

I know about the inquisition etc., and I'm sure the practice and institution would have frowned upon by Christ - after all, he never terrorised anyone into accepting His message, everyone had tgo come of their own free will or it was no good. But bear in mind: the inquisition did use torture etc., it's true, to extract (often very unreliable) confessions but then so did the Civil courts of the time - in fact it was a fairly standard practice across all branches of the judiciary and the inquisition was nothing unusual for its time. We also have new forms of inquisition in our so-called 'modern' world (though to the generations that follow us we may not appear quite so modern as we do to ourselves). The witch hunt has given way to other hunts - a hunt for communists in the 50s, a hunt for terrorists today. Always something to keep the people afraid, stirred up, pliant. And torture is as much in use today by so-called democratic governments as it was back then.

the church is an instituition, and like all institutions it suffers somewhat from the 'us and them' syndrome where it forgets its original mission statement and closes ranks to protect itself from the wider membership and public. But you see similar behaviour in police forces, schools, universities, governments and so on. I hope it's clear I absolutely don't condone the bad behaviour etc., of the church or its organisations. They have overshadowed the good work done by tireless christian charities and church-organisations, often filling the gap in social services given mere lip-service by the elected government.

Like many people, I came to Christ through hitting rock bottom first. Lots of people seem to have the idea that Christians are all saints, holier-than-thou. But Christ said "I came to heal the sick: the healthy don't need a doctor" If I had to sum up what I notice most about trying to follow Christ is that when I am doing it (and I don't always succeed) there is a lightness in my life that's hard to describe - added to an absence of fear. When you really start to life the message of Christ day-to-day (and that's the challenging part) it brings its own reward: you stop being afraid of what tomorrow will bring; you stop being afraid of the direction the world seems to be going; you stop being afraid of the drunk whom looks like trouble coming towards you; in many other ways. You feel you are anchored to something that transcends the worldly things. One thing I notice in today's world is the almost hysterical levels of fear and the violence that stems from it. Generally I know when I am getting away from Christ's message when the fear starts to creep back in!


I hope I have answered your question as best I can. Though I was never an atheist as such (I think) I did 'swing the other way' for a bit, being at best indifferent to religion and spirituality and at worst dabbling in the occult. All I can say is none of the things I hankered after (happiness, love, life, etc.,) ever came to me from either of those two sources, but did through Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM

I actually grew up without being raised "in" any religion. My sisters and I don't know anybody else for whom that's true, so I'd be interested if that were so for anybody here?

We had jewish relatives (but Mom was an atheist), Quaker relatives (but Dad was an atheist who called himself agnostic to be polite), and lived in a West African country (animist and Moslems who didn't veil their women, don't think they circumcized their daughters) that had been colonized by the French (Catholic). So my school did Catholic and Moslem holidays while the school personnel slaughtered goats to their various deities, occasionally visiting jewish and quaker relatives. None of us ever believed in any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:29 PM

If I have to apply a religious label to myself, "Taoist" comes as close as anything. That's where I've been for thirty-five years and I doubt I'll be changing my views any time soon.

I had a brief encounter with Unity Church, a nominally Christian denomination which is sort of a half-way-house for those who really want to embrace more Eastern ideas but can't kick the go-to-church-on-Sunday habit. It didn't hurt me.

My wife's a practicing Tibetan Buddhist and she has tried to get me interested in their practices. While I have a deep afinity for much Buddhist thought I don't care for religious ritual and those Tibetans have enough rituals and chants to make Catholics look like pikers.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bainbo
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

I stopped attending church after a deep examination of what I truly believed. And although I think Jesus was spot on with his message, I realised that, try as I might, deep down I didn't believe that he was, literally, the Son of God, who, literally, rose from the dead - even though I went along every week and recited that I did believe it. I thought this probably disqualified me from calling myself a Christian, so I stopped. It was only later that I found out that a good proportion of folk who go along to church don't believe it either.

Thing is - I miss the fellowship and help you get in staying on the right path. But that doesn't seem a good enough reason to keep going along and saying I believe in something that I don't.

I've never understood all this business with factions and schisms. I've always interpreted Jesus's message as nothing more than: "Look, if we're going to get through this, we've all got to get on and help each other." St Paul's analogy - that we're all like the different parts of one human body- is brilliant; unless we're all working together for the same end, then our collective body - humanity itself - fails.

And maybe, just maybe, that collective consciousness, when it all comes together and works properly, is waht we sometimes like to call "God".

Or maybe I'm talking through our collective arsehole. Who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:42 PM

Bainbo - I think you put it well about simply rattling through prayers. Belief in God and Jesus should never be about blind adherence to empty formulas. Jesus criticised the Pharisees because of their insistence on the observation of every tiny religious rule to the exclusion of having any charity in their hearts. In other words they were bogged down in the rule book and didn't live by the spirit of the religion any more. He also said the 10 commandments could be reduced to 2: "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbour (everyone) as yourself" By following thse two, we could be sure we were doing God's will. I think the first one is important because there's another phrase "be true to yourself" which in my opinion, though it sounds like good advice, is misleading. becuase even the most sincere can eventually lie to themselves, or fool themselves, but you can't fool God.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:59 PM

I wound up an atheist when I was about 13. I just thought a lot about the possibility of a mystical consciousness behind everything and decided it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I studied different religions - read and took courses. I saw that all these people believed in a different version of God, and so I figured they were all right, or none were right. I went with the 'none'. The differences were all things that had to be taught, the religions all had to be taught. If a person can't see a thing unless someone else shows it to them and then tells them what they're seeing, I don't think of it as real. I think the dogma is a social thing.

If a person has a religion, it's his religion because of the area in which he grew up and people around him taught it to him. Some people aren't happy and look for something else, but they frequently look for something that only differs slightly.

Anyway, others came to the 'all or nothing' point if view and probably went the other way. The main change I've gone through as I've grown older is that I'm more tolerant of the very religions and very vocal. They once used to trigger a reaction in me so I couldn't stand talking to them and I couldn't even sing songs from a believer's point of view. That was me being overly sensitive though, and not anything anyone did to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:15 PM

I grew up in a completely non-religious family, never went to church (except for some marriage of a relative once), didn't believe in God or any kind of religion as a boy or an adolescent. I believed in science and was an atheist. The way of being that I was taught as a child was the scientific approach, logic, rationality, normal social morality of my culture, and atheism.

In my 20s I began to gradually investigate a lot of different religious traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, North American Indian spirituality, and a variety of other things like that. Began to see common ground in all of them, and gradually took on a number of general spiritual beliefs...not specifically confined to any one religious tradition.

I now think about spiritual matters every day of my life, have no problems reconciling my spiritual beliefs with science or materiality, and am interested in investigating any new spiritual concepts I might run across. Most of the reading I do is of spiritual books of one kind or another. I belong to no specific religion, but find much of value in many (if not all) of them. My religious and scientific views will probably keep changing and adapting right till the day I die (and hopefully after that as well). We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:15 PM

I was nominally a Methodist when young. We moved too often to get 'attached' to any particular church or attend regularly, but I was going occasionally into my teens. I sort of passively accepted that Christianity was 'it', but early on I had notions of questioning 'authority' in general.
I guess life changed when I found a copy of a paperback book (one of a series) on a slow day when I worked as a grocery checker. It was "The Age of Ideology" and it was my introduction to a formal way of looking at thought, religion, history and examining rather than just swallowing...and the idea fit me. I bought the book, and by the time I was a senior in HS, I knew I wanted to study Philosophy in college.

   For several years I attended a Unitarian church, as several people I respected as 'reasonable' went there. The Unitarians vary from 'almost' fully Christian to plain old 'secular humanists', and this church was near the humanist end of the scale. (I see they are STILL the targets of far-right Christians around there!)

Anyway, as I read more, saw more, went places, and learned how to think, not just how to rationalize, it gradually dawned on me that I could NOT accept religion when there were so many versions, and so many contradictions in each version.....but at the same time, I had no respect for 'militant atheists' whose hobby was making fun of religion.

   I do see why religion is attractive & compelling for some, and I have worked for...ummmm...40 years or so to find a path that defends my right to NOT believe, but also respects those who do, as long as they do not try to impose religion on those who'd rather not have it.

Living in Kansas was quite an education...in many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:07 PM

"Have you changed your religious views?"

No, I can still see the same curches out of the same windows...

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

"I wound up an atheist when I was about 13."

Told him there was a God, did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM

I had an interest in Christianty when I was about 15. Even got confirmed and corresponded at length with the Vicar about the categorical imperative.

When I was 17 I perceived that organised religion was about social political and economic control.

The rituals and the priests have usually been a barrier between me and any spiritual enlightenment, and I have steadily become less inclined to accept that there is any enlightenment to be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM

Have you changed your religious views?

Yes, on an almost daily basis since I was old enough to think about it. Still do. The rest I will share in person, maybe. Mudcat has not been trustworthy as a place to share about it further.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:56 PM

No kidding. You need a thick skin to talk about stuff you really care about when you're on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:05 PM

Yeah, I got tired of being spiritually open and trying to grow a thicker skin at the same time. Now, where's that sarcasm smilie icon?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:07 PM

"Have you changed your religious views?"

Yes, numerous times in the course of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:19 PM

Jeri - what you say is interesting, because I experienced these questions too.

You write " I just thought a lot about the possibility of a mystical consciousness behind everything and decided it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me" I once had a similar idea of what God might be. At varying times I thought God might be the energy that flows through all living things, at another, i thought god might just be our collective consciousness and so on through endless combinations. But one day I realised what 'didn't make sense' about this picture: a God that is merely some form of energy or life force has no personality, anymore than any other form of energy does. You cannot have a relationship with this kind of 'God' anymore than you can with the electricity coming from the socket in your wall. Belief in God is a lot about your personal relationship with him. Once you make this 'breakthrough' God becomes as real as a family relative living in another town or country - though you can't see them, you 'know' they exist ('stop! You're scaring me now!!') Seriously, though, I find it hard to explain in any other way and science isn't able to prove any of this of course (otherwise it wouldn't be 'faith', would it?)

Another interesting point you mentioned was "I saw that all these people believed in a different version of God, and so I figured they were all right, or none were right. I went with the 'none"
That does strike me as odd though - why would you have plumped for 'none'? Perhaps one of them was right? If 7 witnessess give 7 versions of an event, just because the 7 versions are different, does it logically mean they are all wrong? One of them may be correct, but the big question of course is 'which one'? That is the part that's up to each of us to discover ourselves.
Of course it's very confusing when everyone says their 'particular version' is right. But if you then decide they are all equally right or wrong, you end up in the quagmire called 'moral relativism' where nothing is right or wrong. Sounds like a tolerant place to be until someone robs you, or murders someone, then we condemn it...but wait, if there is no right or wrong, why do we condemn it?? The fact that there is a kind of common cause amongst many religions (especially the monotheisms) is noteworthy in itself. We might ask, why is it that all these religions share these values?

Plus, there is another, logical argument against relativism. Realtivism is based on the axiom that "There is no such thing as absolute truth". But that statement is in fact an absolute statement. It is either true or it is not. Therefore, if it is correct, it denies itself: the statement itself cannot be true, being an absolute. If the statement is not true, it must be false. Therefore, it is false to say 'there is no such thing as absolute truth'. Therefore, absolute truth (i.e something which cannot be denied) exists. Kinda makes my head spin, too, but there you have it.

I can understand why some parents teach their children a few facts about several religions or none at all. All the religious wars etc., are a poor advertisement for those who'd like to be religious. But people have killed and died in the name of many 'isms' - capitalism, communism you name it-ism. And if you live a materialistic life, focused on making money and so on (capitalism), this is as much a statement of what you believe worthwhile (obviously) as a person who goes to church every week.

Teaching no religious beliefs - this is a statement in itself too, it tells your kids you think no religious beliefs are worth having. We try and teach our kids the things that we consider to be important to their life and welfare. No parent that I know tells their children nothing about drugs and lets them experiment and decide for themselves. Or if their kids were marrying someone the parents thought to be a scoundrel. Once over 18 of course, parents have much less say in the matter, but they would always make their opinion known.
And if you have religious beliefs, you are most likely be trying to teach them to your kids in the first place.

Teaching all religious beliefs in bare outline - this too is a statement. It tells your kids that all religions are equally valid - and therefore equally invalid. If that's the case, why would anyone bother to follow any particular one? We only follow a religion because we believe it has something more worthwhile to offer that the others don't. If you were offered a free car, you would choose the one with the best features, right? In any case the kids will watch what their parents DO as much as (or more than) what they say. If the parents themselves follow no religion, the kids may well ask themselves "Then why should I?" If the parents follow one religion, once again they will probably teach this one in-depth to their kids and perhaps give a few facts about the others. They are also likely to explain to their kids WHY they follow this particular religion (as much as we explain to kids why we do anything in particular that we think is important - for exmple, I'm sure you've heard parents telling kids why it's wrong to steal etc.,)

BTW, I should add that when I say 'religion' I am not talking about the mere sets of rules and observances that go with each, such as not eating meat, or washing hands and feet before eating, etc., What I'm talking about is of course the core beliefs and teachings - the doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bee
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:37 PM

All of my family are devout church attenders, and they are good people, so I can't blame them for my rapid slide into agnostic atheism, which happened in my twenties, when I was busy discovering the world. I tried going to church, talking with a minister, reading the Bible to understand my thinking, and that was when I discovered how deeply sexism was rooted in Christianity and in most faiths I knew about. Around the same time, I went to school in Europe, still confused. My best friend in Canada was entering a Zen monastery, my best friend in the Netherlands was on the verge of joining a cult, I was losing my religion - my, how we argued and debated, as only twenty-somethings can!

Of course, I have 'grown in agnosticism' since then, and see very little reason to follow any faith - faith itself is incomprehensible, an unreasonable expectation, to me. If I were still a seeking Christian, I would be a follower of doubting Thomas, who needed physical proof and got it.

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that our morality, good and bad, including "Do onto others..." has evolved along with us, from our primate ancestors.

I'm unsure of what people mean when they say 'spirit', or 'spiritual' - the physical body and brain is all I'm certain of, the combined ability of these two is considerable, marvellous enough for me, without tossing an Odin or Zeus or Yahweh in the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:51 PM

Raised Catholic-started question around 12 the reasons why my Church still practised segregation in the south. Little things-like the inquisition-the bad popes-the tenets like transubstantiation,(Could never get around that one) the arrogance of priests. That started my path from the Church. As I grew older-the birth control,divorce,homophobia, the whole "paid for annulment issues"-women being treated as humanitie's fringe element. A hundred other things too.

My epiphany came with Madeline Murray O'Hare-she dared to say the things I'd been thinking. That it's all a fairy tale. The bible, IMO is like Grimms Fairy Tales. People take their oath on the bible & say they believe in it totally! As we know, there are so many dreadful depictions of hate & violence-it cannot be taken literally-yet most Churchgoers do.
The baby must be thrown out with the bathwater. If you buy some of it-you must buy all of it.

I've just been reading about John23rd-he said there was no hell. The new pope has brought hell back. Limbo (was on leave also) is back too. Wish they'd get it straight. Somewhere I seem to recall that a Catholic has an obligation to follow his conscience.I know right from wrong. Works for me!

Many years ago, William F. Buckley said, "If there is a God--He is not a good God." Works for me!
Lastly, I think often of the vatican's vaults-were they opened-they could feed the hungry of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: khandu
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

I am changing my views everyday. It is God working within me both to will and to do His good purpose. I am being molded into the image of Christ.

k

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:03 PM

I'll bring the nails . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:24 PM

I am being molded into the image of Christ.

Does that mean I can get a glow-in-the-dark plastic khandu for the dashboard of my car pretty soon?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:30 PM

now THAT would change my religious views!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:39 PM

I think it would hurt my wrists.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: GUEST,Shakyamuni
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:40 PM

yes

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM

Religion as in any journey has new scenery and people as one passes from group to group. There are new lands and new lessons that share more than they differ.

At 18 before surgury I had to give a religion for the wrist band.
I wrote Humanist. I went on to involve myself in various groups which practiced Judaism, Christianity, Zen, Gurdief, Nichren Sho Shu, Hindu, Hindu off shoots, psychodelic shamaism, Bahai, various psycho social therapy groups, new age cultish channeling programs and other pseudo science BS.
Studying Joseph Campbell's work rounded out my experiences nicely as well. The one group that would not have me as a member or even as an onlooker were the muslims.

In my secular 13 year practice of hypnosis I rarely took on esoteric pursuits but there were a few side trips into de programming, regressions, sports psychology and unusual psycho somatic requests.

After the Gannet newspapers labeled me a maverick who believed that military politics and brainwashing go hand in hand and that new age pseudo science was gobbeldygook wrapped in a tissue of lies for a good cause... I gained the attention of various establishment beaurocracies like the FBI, CIA, DNI, High Priesthood of Jesuits the County police, hospitals and a handful of independent professionals like dentists, writers and artists.

The establisment types wanted one of two things; don't mess with our way of doing things or "would you like a job with us?"
Which in retrospect was the same one thing, don't mess with us.

One constant has been the exclusive religious groups that band together in a brotherhood of a powerfully proclaimed love while specializing in hate.

Also the thing my mom told me as a kid remains unchanged...
"NO matter what the clique, club, religion or nation you belong to, they all want their dues".

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: GUEST,ex-Christian
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:15 AM

I post anonymously for reasons that will become obvious. I was involved in the church and called myself a Christian, a very politically (small 'p') active one, thinking that Christianity was a force for good in the world, helping to defend the helpless, speak up for voiceless, etc., and basically follow Jesus' example of making the world fit for 'God's children'. After a few years it dawned on me that not only does most of the western church not believe in this form of Christianity at all, but much of the church is actually *against* making the world better in the above terms, either by paying lip-service only and no more (sermons and prayers alone don't feed the hungry or release the oppressed), or by focussing exclusively on abstract theological notions about the afterlife, or by actively campaigning for repressive policies against already-repressed groups.

My push completely out of Christianity came in four ways:
1. A TV programme, a debate between atheist scientists and theist Christians. At one point they were debating the basis for moral action. A scientist asked what is added to the moral imperative by putting the word 'God' in the sentence. If something is good or right, or bad and wrong, he said, it's good or bad on its own terms, because of its effects in the world: adding 'God' to the moral imperative adds nothing of any substance to morality. That planted a seed in my mind that was to grow for a few years and finally come to fruition by combining with the other three factors.
2. I was very ill for a few years. I didn't know if I would ever recover. (I did!) At the time I was deeply involved in church work. I was shocked at the volume of church people who acted as if, and some actually stated, that my illness was in some way my own doing due to some religious or moral deficiency on my part. In other words, it was in some way God's doing. (It's worth stating that my illness was not any of those ever associated publicly with morality, such as AIDS.)
3. I worked for a year with a church minister who made my life absolute hell, who was using religion as a cover up and an excuse for his own hang-ups. He was habitually angry due to unresolved inner conflicts, but justified this in social or religious terms.
4. Another church minister, married and in a senior position to me, tried it on with me sexually. I was also married and she knew it. When I resisted her advances she made life in the church *very* difficult for me. I was a then a lot younger than I am now and scared. She spread lies about me dressed up as concern, which resulted in me having to spent more and more time with her to 'sort out my problems', which in practice meant more sexual advances from her. Because of this I told only a few people, outside the church, who helped me through it. She was found out when someone walked in on her having sex with someone else in the church - I wasn't the only one she was trying it on with. I resisted, he didn't. He was also married and his marriage ended as a result. The church did not remove her from the ministry, but just moved her to another part of the country to start again with that history out of view. At that point I knew my faith in the church was dead. Added to the other three cumulative factors, my religious faith died with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:42 AM

WYS, I gave up on the thick skin too. It's like the Zen dude said when asked, "But does the fire not burn?" and responded, "Yes, but the trick is not minding." I just try to let the negative feelings pass through me and not trap them. Thick skins for protection are fine for some, but none of this other stuff can hurt me unless I get upset about it. It's the getting upset that hurts.

Nickhere said, "One of them may be correct." Yes, I believe most people see the nearly infinite number of religions and come to that conclusion. I didn't. I'm not saying there aren't things unexplained, but I'm content to not need explanations, but just notice when those things happen and wonder that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:55 AM

When I was 20, I let Odin into my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:00 AM

I'm a recovering Baptist.
What turned me off all organized religeon was the study of real history.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:33 AM

I've bounced in and out of Christianity for a good part of my life but always ended up being stifled by the rules and regulations and, quite often, the narrow mindedness of those who applied them. I've also found the holier than thou attitude, which exudes from some so called Christians, to be very off putting.

In the last few years I have thought more about my own beliefs and have come to the conclusion that, like other organisations, religions just give people a place to belong and that many people do need to have that anchor. It's just not for me.

I suppose the real turning point was the Jack In The Green festival in Hastings in 2004. I watched a group of pagans putting together their giants for the procession and it just got me thinking about why they were there and doing what they were doing. That, together with the teachings of a friend in quantum physics (what little I understood) and the realisation that the gospels were cobbled together 400 years AD all came together to make me really think about what I believed in.

I've spoken to a few people about my own belief and Kendall tells me that I'm probably somewhere close to being a Universal Unitarian. That's fine by me, so long as nobody wants me to fit into their system or conform to their rules.

For day to day living I try to lead as decent a life as I can, following a lot of the tenets that religions suggest. I know that I have a 'dark side' and try to use it constructively, rather than denying it completely. I don't believe in hell. I do KNOW that if I do something that goes against my own conscience, I will feel very uncomfortable, so I listen to my conscience and try to follow its dictats. I try to find the good in all things (don't always succeed there) and to be aware of the wonderful planet I live on.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:43 AM

The way I understand it to date, religions are social institutions, while spirituality is personal. Religion is external, spiritual internal. Religion is for believing, spirituality is for experiencing. So, the religious views of my formative years evolve and change all the time, as I explore alternate viewa/doctrines, practice different forms(s) of personal spirituality, and make them my own in ways that are meaningful and helpful to me.

I saw that all these people believed in a different version of God, and so I figured they were all right, or none were right. I went with the 'none"

Hmmm. All of them are right in certain respects while falling short in others. And they are all different because they evolved as a function of the needs/desires of very different groups of people, at very different times and places.

Religious traditions/doctines do have something unique and valuable to offer those who are interested and enjoy exploring the "different", even though "different" can be scary, uncomfortable, threatening. Because underneath all those perceived differences, there are certain common golden threads of truth (ie that the purpose of human life is to learn to Love better - ourselves and others - for just one example) Finding those common threads and reflecting upon them is a delight and a privilege, for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

After discovering that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy weren't real, it didn't take me long to become a confimed Atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

WEll, I've discovered through personal experience that Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy do indeed have something very special in common with God.

They're all Me.

(and all You, too)

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:57 AM

I did a picture of Christ on the Easter cross wearing bunny ears and laying a decorated egg. There was no public outcry possibly since its pastel and not milk chocolate

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM

I have investigated different religions. They had one thing in common. They all asked you to submit to a higher power. Usually it was a person that represented that higher power.
The hierarchy of the religious institution starts that way. One person claims insight and others follow (I would submit blindly). The submission to an ultimate higher power seems to be a necessity for many people. It seems that some people require a kind of parental figure all of their lives. I felt that I had to grow up and assume my own responsibility for myself. I found that you didn't have to be religious to lead a moral and ethical life. In fact, much of what we know of morality pre-dates the Judeo-Christian religions.

Now, theological questions don't interest me that much. I don't find them useful except as an index to how people behave in history or culture. Other than that, I see no value to religion. There are many good people who are religionists and I want to get along with them so I usually don't discuss theological questions with them.

I am interested in a truthful quest for knowledge based on evidence and fact.

I find no comfort in believing in a made-up system of religious dogma. I certainly object to having it being interjected into government.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:10 PM

I have a friend who became an atheist upon realizing that his church had a secular insurance policy...


... to protect if against acts of god.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM

I've changed and continue to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:27 PM

That's funny, Mrrzy!

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM

So many interesting posts. I very rarely express my disbelief in a higher power. There is no point to be made & some would be alienated. In listening to a few discussions over the years, I've heard more then a few express their disdain for athiests because "They have no morals." I realize it is said from total ignorance, but it still astonishes me.

A slight aside; a person wrote in to our local paper equating athiesm with Nazi fascism & Russian communism.The rebuttal from an athiest quoted Hitler's "Mein Kampf"

"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as an agent of our creator.By fighting off the Jews I am doing the Lord's work."                              

How many Germans thought they were doing the Lord's work? So the ignorance continues. Sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

Frank...

I have investigated different societies and governments. They all had one thing in common. They all asked you to submit to a higher power (authority). It was always a person or group of people that represented that higher authority.

The hierarchy of any social institution (whether it be school, church, government, business entity, private club, criminal gang, or military forces) is arranged that way. One person claims the highest authority and others follow (I would submit blindly). The submission to an ultimate higher authority seems to be a necessity for many people. It seems that some people require a kind of parental figure all of their lives. I felt that I had to grow up and assume my own responsibility for myself. I found that you didn't have to be a conformist to society's rules and expectations to lead a moral and ethical life. In fact, much of what we know of morality pre-dates the societal structures presently in sway in the world.

Therefore, I submit that they are largely arbitrary...just like religion. My attitude toward them, in fact, is pretty much the same as your attitude toward organized religion.

My wish is to be free of ALL such authority, not just free of it when it claims to represent "God", and I will struggle until my last breath to be free of ALL such authority and to judge for myself what is good and valuable and meaningful in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM

LH,

Looks like we're on the same page. (But not scriptural :))

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:20 PM

"They all asked you to submit to a higher power (authority)."

You have just described the education system all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:28 PM

Right fuckin' on, Peace. I was keenly aware from the day that I entered school that I had been forced into a part-time gulag...against my own free will...and against my own better judgement. I have not changed my opinion about that to this day.

I could have and did educate myself far better outside that stupid authority system. Matter of fact, I was already able to read before I even went to school. I simply endured school and survived until it was finally over. School, like other things, should be voluntary. It should be a choice. If it was, people would like it a whole lot better, and they'd grow up with the sense that they were in command of their own destiny rather than existing at the behest of Big Brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:35 PM

Jeez, anyone else miss Clinton Hammond?

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: jaze
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 07:49 PM

What Mickey191 said. Almost word for word--for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 08:32 PM

Yeah, bobad, I miss Clinton like I would miss a really bad case of hemmorhoids...or a lengthy terminal illness.

You know, I've visited countries (like Mexico, for example) where many children were simply not able to go to school. They had to work every day to support the family. Some of these little kids or teenagers could manage to get to school a couple of days a week, in between working as servants or shoeshines or something like that. They really valued school, because they went on their own volition, and they knew that every bit of learning they got there might help them someday escape the poverty they were born into. It was a whole different world.

It wasn't like that in the North American middle class life I grew up in. There everybody was dutifully trundled off to public school to learn how to conform, be obedient, and consume, whether it suited their nature or not (Some individuals thrived there, others were psychologically crushed by it or their time was totally wasted there...which better descrives the effects it had on me. It was mostly slow hell...boring, oppressive, useless. This was not so when I had a REALLY good teacher, as happened on about 3 occasions...but my main problem was the system itself, and the other kids...the bullies, that is.)

It's better to have a choice where one goes by one's own free will and according to one's own keen desire than to be simply impressed into a mass system against your will. My view of the military is pretty much the same. Obedience is taught by the carrot and the stick...more notably, the stick. I do not admire such a system.