BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?

Subject: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 08:24 AM

That is a pretty alarming thread title, but I wonder if there is not a real danger of another such threat arising.
This week, on German TV, I saw a horrifying report about the rise of openly fascist thugs terrorising immigrants and non ethnic Russians in Russia. The main response of the Russian government has been to pass a law, prohibiting non Russians from participating in business or at markets. The police and authorities increasingly stand by when blatantly racist attacks take place. They tacitly support the thugs.
There have been fascist groups and fascist pogroms in other countries all over Europe. However, disgusting as they are, they do not pose the threat, which we are currently witnessing in Russia. The imperfect democracies are basically politically stable, have co-operative foreign policies and deliver a relatively high standard of living.
To my eyes, modern Russia looks like being the most similar modern state to Germany in the thirties. There is high inflation and unemployment. There is widespread political apathy. There is no really effective state authority, which is based on the rule of law. Am I the only one who fears that another Nazi state could arise - this time in Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

I'm not sure that the Russian Mafia would permit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:44 AM

If they weren't bankrolling it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:47 AM

Ain't no money in it. In the long run it'd be all outgo and no income.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 11:58 AM

I think you are mistaken. The old Mother Courage motto, "War is good for business", holds true as ever. The Nazi economy was essentially like a fire. Of course, it eventually consumed everything, which came its way. The trick was to throw a bit of oil on the fire and then stand back and run off with your loot before you lost everything. That is what the businessmen did very successfully. IG Farben (now Bayer) did not go broke in the war!

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:02 PM

Alanabit,

I am equally worried that it could occur just as easilly in the US.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 12:36 PM

Obviously you know the US better than I do Frank. Tyranny and injustice comes in many forms. From what I know of your country, I believe it is less endemically racist than many other countries. What frightens me about the US, is more the power of the unelected industrial moguls, who exert a huge amount of real power. While I do not underestimate the potential for abuse of power, I can't see anything close to Nazism taking hold there.
Russia looks very different at the moment. It is quite respectable to be overtly racist there. The authorities effectively enable racist attacks and have appeased the thugs with racist laws. That is very similar to the Nürnbergesetze of the Third Reich. Neo Nazis openly boast in front of television cameras of their plans to beat and persecute ethnic minorities. Investigative journalists are executed on the streets and inconvenient opposition politicians can find themselves in danger of imprisonment, if not of their lives. That may not fit everyone's definition of fascism, but it comes uncomfortably close to mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 01:54 PM

Which minorities are they aiming their attacks upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:05 PM

I think you're quite right, alanabit. Racism is balkan countries is rampant and you can include Lituania, Estonnia, Romania and Spain as countries who have never addressed the issue. There is a definite social heirarchy based on a perception of some groups of people being superior to others. Discrimination serves to maintain the status quo. Gypsys are on the bottom rung of the ladder but there are many groups in between Gypsys and the ruling minorities.

At least in the U.S. the subject is out in the open, attempts have been made to address the issue and it is seen as political incorrect by most. In the countries mentioned above, the social heirarchy is considered normal based on a false notion of superiority. It will only take a major economic hardship for the general population to blame the easily identified lower classes and turn on them with violence. The anger is just boiling beneath the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

Two men jailed for race-hate brawl in north Russia
18:50 | 27/ 03/ 2007
   


PETROZAVODSK, March 27 (RIA Novosti) - A court in northern Russia has sentenced two men to three and a half years and eight months in prison for a brawl in September 2006, which triggered race-hate violence in the region.

Sergei Mozgalev and Yury Pliyev, sentenced for beating three restaurant employees, will serve their prison terms in a high-security prison.

Kondopoga, in the Republic of Karelia, experienced a wave of racial violence in September last year after two local Russian residents were killed and nine others injured in a restaurant brawl with Chechens August 30.

The incident sparked racially motivated violence in the community, and a wave of nationalist protests elsewhere in the country. A total of 109 people were detained in the city on suspicion of involvement in pogroms and arson attacks, and 25 rioters were arrested. Seventeen criminal cases were opened following the incident.

Lawyers for the defendants, who partially admitted their guilt, said they will not appeal the sentence.

from the www

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:14 PM

I would agree about the strong undercurrent of racism in the Balkans and much of Eastern Europe.

It's a different form of fascism that threatens in the USA...not one built so much around racism, but rather built around aggressive and irresponsible militarism, expansion of police powers and illegal surveillance of the public, curtailing of civil rights, justification of foreign aggression, torture of political prisoners...that sort of thing. That's also fascism. You don't have to have a replay of the racist policies that led to the Holocaust in order to breed fascism. Fascism does not require racism, it simply requires the criminal misuse of governmental authority on a national and international scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:18 PM

Fascism/totlaitarianism, nazism are political philosophies that take hold when people can be manipulated into believing that someone else is responsible for the conditions they live under. We saw that in the American south. Poor whites blamed poor blacks, and all the while no one wondered who was pulling the strings or who had all the cash. It is ever thus.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 02:37 PM

Yes, Peace, but the "someone" who is supposedly to blame (the scapegoat) can also be located in another country. Or in several other countries. It does not have to be a minority within one's own population who is used as the scapegoat for violence.

As far as I'm concerned, fascism is simply the gross misuse of governmental authority in a very aggressive way...and the overcentralization of power in unscrupulous hands. It also goes hand in hand with a lot of drum-beating patriotism and dire warnings of a threat to the nation...either by internal OR external forces.

I consider Stalin, for example, to have been a fascist, in truth, even though he was called a Communist and was engaged in fighting the primary offical fascist powers of the time. Fascists CAN get into disagreements and wars with other fascists...and they frequently do. ;-)

I consider Mao to have been a fascist. I consider any extreme dictator to be a fascist, to all intents and purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 03:59 PM

I agree with both of you.
What strikes me, are the parallels between the crude, street thuggery of the modern day fascists in Russia and the ways in which the authorities appease the aggressors. Such bruality was enshrined in law in the Third Reich. I fear that the Russia of 2007 is moving closer to a Nazi dictatorship than any other European country has been since 1945. I also can't see anything happening at the moment, which is likely to reverse this trend.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:08 PM

We are entering an era of rogue states. There is no central authority and no way to enforce law. We have large organizations that have become very powerful: various Mafias (which I know doesn't exist); Medellin Cartel; terrorist organizations; various governmental organizatiuons that operate outside the law; multi-nationals and oil cartels. IMO, the problem is we've had no Judge Roy Bean. We are watching civilization slip away--or rather, we are watching it be stolen from our hands while we hide behind weak legal systems that have been subjected to bribery, graft and corruption. We have watched people in positions of power and some of those we've elected steal millions and millions of dollars and we then proceed to treat them as 'white-collar' offenders. Those pieces of shit steal from the poor and lend themselves to the starvation of millions around this world. Do I know what the answer is? No. But I don't think it's gonna be found in a court room, because the judges are too fuckin' easy to buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 04:20 PM

Y'all might want some light reading.

Of interest is the archives. Give them a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:19 PM

There is a rising tide of religious extremism in the US by the Dominionist idea of a Nationalist Christianity. This is on a relatively small but active state. The Dominionists do not want Jewish or any other religion to reflect our country. This is what I would characterize as Christo-fascism. Remember please too about what happened to Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming, a young gay man who was brutalized by this Dominionist kind of thinking. Also, Fred Phelps who obstructed funerals in the US of gay servicepeople and pickets gay pride events as well. You don't think this is fascist?

There are enclaves of these people who are being shielded by the lack of reporting in the US press. I refer you to Chris Hedges and Michele Goldberg's account of this phenomenon.

To say that it doesn't exist is naive.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 05:47 PM

I agree, Peace. We are indeed entering an era of rogue states. It basically began when the Cold War ended, because without a relatively equal balance of power (checks and balances) in the world to keep things moderately stable things soon go totally haywire. It's the Wild West out there right now.

I remember Leonard Cohen saying in an interview when the Berlin Wall came down, "Everyone is celebrating right now, but they have no idea what's coming. It's going to be absolutely terrible what happens." He was not saying it because he was a fan of communism, he was saying it because he was farseeing enough to realize what would soon happen in various parts of Europe and the world in general, once the Soviets were gone. He was dead right. Look at what happened in Yugoslavia for just one spectacular example. And look at what has been happening in the Middle East.

This sort of thing often happens after the collapse of a great empire, because a huge power vacuum is created and a lot of ruthless, opportunistic people dare to do what they did not dare to do previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 07:25 PM

The crude and bigoted bullies you describe are obviously there in the US, Frank. They are also causing untold misery for their victims. Indeed it is naive to ignore them. I still have enough faith in the US however, to believe that they are a long way from becoming powerful enough to make any major inroads into your constitutionally guaranteed rights.
Russia is a whole different kettle of fish. You have economic meltdown for the masses. Racism is endemic. The largest threat to civil rights is the decline of any confidence in the state itself. That is a very dangerous cocktail. I agree with Peace that the failure of the system to bring its major criminals to book undermines law and order itself in the long run. It certainly happens in the US. It is true in Great Britain, a country in which major gun runners (if they are exposed at all - and they frequently have official secrecy to protect them) are virtually immune from prosecution and liable to minimum penalties even if convicted. In Germany, a former local political party chairman, who stole millions from the city of Berlin, has just been given a suspended sentence. That is all bad enough, but I still fear that Russia has reached a whole different level of breakdown of law. The usual "remedy" applied in these situations is either a military coup or a fascist dictator. I would say this is getting uncomfortably close in Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM

I think that everyone is frightened of the free-for-all, no national borders, anything goes, anyone- can- come- and- live- in- my- country- and- anyone- who- objects- will- be- labelled- a- racist- and- a- fascist mentality that proliferates at the present time. There must be twenty or thirty countries wherein this is the status quo, and nobody dare say a word against it. So all the things that frighten us all-----Racial dilution , loss of identity, the supression of patriotism , the loss of freedom of speech, a fear of overcrowding,an undermining of the labour market by cheaper foreign labour, civil unrest, inter-racial conflict, riots, dilution and even cynical manipulation of our religious beliefs ,and a refusal by governments to take those beliefs seriously, whilst openly pandering to the religious beliefs of immigrant minorities-------- I / we only have to raise one word of protest about it, and we"re / I"m a " Fascist " - That really hurts !! Are we English patriots, with a long and noble history of racial and religious tolerance ( like the Dutch ) , to be placed in the same category as Mussolini and Hitler ?? How sad !! Most of us condemn and abhorr the emergence of neo-Nazism and Fascism in Germany and Russia , and dare I say it, the USA, but please, before you express your outrage and indignation, try to see and understand WHY people are starting to feel and to react in that regrettable manner. A lot of nations are currently beset by problems that are not going to be solved by the simple labelling or categorisation of whole populations as Fascists, Nazis, Commies, Bolshies,Bigots, Racists,Isolationists, Protectionists, Zealots, Die-Hards, Red-necks, Good Old Boys, or what the hell else. However repugnant it might be, what the people of Russia think , is up to the people of Russia, and what the people of Germany think is up to the people of Germany, and so on . Unless, of course, you would be quite happy and agreeable to the idea of the Russians and the Germans telling you, whoever and wherever you are, what to feel ,and think, and say ??? Now THAT"S Fascism !!! Sorry, boys and girls, but the Real World is the Real World, and who, and how, are we, to change that ?? Is that not, whilst understandable, somewhat arrogant ?? Herr H . and Signor M., plus perhaps Tovarisch S., have tried that ( and failed !! ).( Luckily ).

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:17 PM

Racial dilution ???

I'm not afraid of that. Speak for yourself.

Why does it frighten you, bubblyrat?

...pandering to the religious beliefs of immigrant minorities ???

Most people call that tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM

It seems that this subject is being debated in many quarters these days.

In Quebec it is referred to as "reasonable accomodation" and there is much discussion going on as to how far a society should go in modifying it's values and cultural traditions in order to accomodate immigrants' traditions and religious beliefs.

It is a hot and contentious issue but at least it is being discussed in the public forum and will hopefully lead to a general consensus on the question and peace in the valley.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Fascist War in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:42 PM

Bubblyrat: "the loss of freedom of speech". That is one of my concerns too. Tajiks, Chechens and Azrbajanis may no longer declare, "Potatoes for sale," at a Russian market, even though they have lived there all there lives. Are you not just a little concerned at that loss of freedom of speech too?