BS: Quiz - Early Ballads

Subject: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:23 AM

may turn out to be more like a Treasure Hunt than a quiz really, but I'm interested in what we can do with this.

In 1554, the London Guild of Stationers began keeping records. These were, to start with, mainly to do with the costs of maintenance and the income derived from presenting aprrentices and the associated feasts etc. However, in July 1558 (and following their incorporation as the Stationers Company) they began keeping records of the ballads they licensed (the charge was 4d each for a year's license).

The first entry was "To william Pekerynge a ballett called a rise and wake iiijd". However, the next 31 were a job lot for which only 10s was charged (it should have been 10s4d) "To master John Wallye and Mistress Toye these balletts following that ys to saye ..."

Here is the list:

1. Women be beste whan they be at Reste
2. A maid that wolde mary with a servynge man
3. I will have a widow yf ever I marye
4. Whan Ragynge love
5. The Daye of the lord ys at hande
6. Who lyve so merye and make suche sporte / As they yat be of the pooreste sorte
7. a ballett of THOMALYN
8. betwene a Ryche farmer and his Doughter
9. An Epytaph upon the Deathe of kynge EDWARDE ye SEXTE
10. a ballett of the talk betwene ij maydes
11. a ballett of good wives
12. The m[o]urninge of EDWARDE Duke of BUCKYNGHAM
13. a ballett of the lover and of the byrde
14. Tomorrow shalbe my fathers wake
15. a ballett of a man that wolde be unmaryed agayne
of the ryche man and poore LAZARUS
16. a ballett of the ABC of a preste called HEUGH STORMY &c.
17. a ballytt of [?] made by NYCHOLASSE BALTROPPE
18. The aged mans ABC
19. a ballett of wakefylde and agrene
20a ballett of a mylner
21 a ballett of God send me a wyffe that will Do as I saye
22/23. a ballett of I will no more go to the ploughe with another new ballett annexed to the same
24. a ballett of admonysshion to leave swerynge
a ballett for my solas
25. a ballett In winters Juste Retorne
26. a ballett yf ever I mary I will mary a mayde
27. a ballett then and in those Dayes then I say then / knaves that be now will become honest men
28. a ballett yt was a man in age truly
29. a ballett Rose ys frome my garden gonne
30/31. ij ballettes yf Care may Cause men crye and The sorrowes that Doth increase

Your mission - should you accept it - is to identify which of these ballads can definitely be matched to ballads available now, which definitely can't and which (most) might or might not be still around. In the 3rd category, total speculation is welcome and silly answers will be awarded bonus points.

This is intended as a bit of a laugh really, but anyone coming in with truly accurate information will be duly feted!

Go for it(?)

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: MMario
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:43 AM

# 7 would be Tam Lin, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Giac
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:55 AM

15. - Divers and Lazarus?

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Giac
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 09:58 AM

13. Love Henry?

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 10:03 AM

Well, for my 2 points I'd say that we're never likely to know what Nos 17 and 23 are!

I'm inclined to agree with both MMario and Giac about the identification of Nos 7 and 15. Dives and Lazarus is generally assumed to be first recorded here, so about 8/10 confidence. I'd be interested to know how soon afterwards versions of Tam Lin appear in print ... my Forum Search is timing out, so unless it appears in a thread title (which it probably does) I won't be able to look.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

None survived on ballad sheets. Two, from their first lines, were evidently expansions of songs in Totel's Miscellany. Two are known from manuscript copies (ZN3380 and ZN3297 in the broadside ballad index at www.erols.com/olsonw). No others are known. J. P. Collier used a few of these titles for his forgeries. "Thomalin" is probably that now called "Brian O'Lynn", not "Tam Lin", as we have evidence for it from the 16th century.

Only one ballad sheet issued by Wallys and Toye is extant, ZN3475 in the broadside ballad index, and it isn't one of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM

Thanks Bruce. Knew we could rely on you. Which ones are Collier's?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:02 PM

By the way, neither of the two references Bruce gave are actually in my list. They are as follows (from his Broadside Ballad Index).

Aryse and wak, for Cristis sake/ ZN3380| [no title]/ ASM 52 [Entd. 1557/8. ZB93|. Rollins, Notes, first ballad entry in Stationers' Register]

The man is blest, That lyves in rest/ ZN3297| A Ballet/ [no tune indication]/ CV 18 [Entd. 1557/8, Dec. 4, 1559. ZB3006|, ZB3007|]

The first is the Pekerynge ballade quoted before the list starts. The nearest we have to the second is No. 1, but I'd be loth to identify "Women be beste" with "Man is blest" (though one may be a parody of the other, perhaps).

The Wallye and Toye ballad which Bruce quotes above is in fact No. 2 in the list. It is (from Bruce's Broadside Ballad Index)

Now prudentlie to pondre prouerbes of olde/ ZN3475| A new merry balad of a maid that wold mary wyth a seruvng man/ Tune: none, poem?/ [by] Thomas Emley/ Lemon Catalog: Ihon Wallye and mistress Toye [CLB 53]

I'm not absolutely certain that Bruce's identification of Thomalyn with Brian O'Lynn is any more likely than Tam Lin ... but I'm willing to be persuaded. I know Bruce has a lot of information about J. P. Collier, so watch this space when he gets back to us.

For the rest, speculation is well worth the risk!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 12:23 PM

No. 6 is, I think, "The Sand Seller" (or "The Sand Wife"/"Will You Buy Any Sand") There are probably other names, but it is a song of "...the poor woman who selleth the sand...".

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 01:08 PM

IanC, thanks for the correction for ZN3475. The broadside ballad index has been updated to include it.

There is a file containing titles of most of Coller's forgeries, and where they were published, on my website. There is another manuscript which apparently contains a few of Collier's forgeries, that I haven't seen, and I don't know where it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM

Re. no.6: the song Walrus mentions appeared as number 18, Who liueth so merry, in Thomas Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, some 50 years after the original song (which may have been more or less the same; we can't really tell) was licensed.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 02:03 PM

No. 19. Wakefylde and agrene. Just possibly a form of The Pinder of Wakefield, which had the burden, In Wakefield all on a green. See Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

The jolly pinder of Wakefield Printed between 1658 and 1664 for F. Coles, T. Vere, and W. Glberson [sic], London. Wood 402(42)

The jolly pinder of Wakefield: with Robin Hood, Scarlet, and Iohn Printed between 1674 and 1679 for F. Coles, T. Vere, J. Wright, and J. Clarke [London]. Wood 401(61)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 03:09 PM

It's important to note here that what they were calling Ballets and what we call Ballads are not necessarily the same thing. So, "Who Liveth so Merry" is not a ballad in our sense, and to be looking for ballads that match up with these titles may be fruitless. Ballett often just meant "broadside" and so these could be poems, prayers, political tracts in verse, etc.

BTW, Barry and Robin Dransfield actually did a recording of "Who Liveth So merry" on one of their early LPS. It's worth hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 05:54 PM

Rollins says in his 'Analytical Index', of #2829, "a ballad of Wakeyflde and agrene", that it might be an early issue of "The Jolly Pinder of Wakefield" (AI 1308, entered in 1675). But the latter ballad is about the pinder, and not about "Wakefylde and a green", and there's no evidence connecting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:02 PM

When raging love, In winter's just return, and If care does cause man cry, are first lines of poems in Tottel's Miscellany.

Nerd, the situation is even worse than you note, because in the 16th century many pieces with ballad/ballet in their titles weren't meant to be sung. They were poems.

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 02 - 06:28 PM

Sorry Nerd, I didn't read your note carefully. Tune directions on broadside ballads are rare before the 1570s, and when there is one it's usually "Row well you marriners".

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 05:02 AM

Thanks to all! Things seem to be progressing nicely, though I won't attempt a summary at the moment(!)

Nerd's point about Ballets/Ballad is pertinent, though we shouldn't forget that - before they were "gentrified" by people like Child - ballads were simply regarded as those songs printed on broadsides. Anyway, that suggests we can discard Nos 18 and possibly 16 as they are ABCs (though old ABCs are sometimes sung - see "Anthony Rowley").

I'm interested in No 15 - could it really be "I wish I was single again"? [;-)]

I'm also interested in the "death ballads" (Nos 9 and 12).

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 05:22 AM

Ian: I had the same thought about No 15. It seems to be suggesting "I wish I were single" but then goes on to mention the rich man & the poor man. This does not have to be Dives & Lazarus, it may refer to the different state of a single man.
"When I was single my pockets would jingle,
I wish I were single again"
Obviously equating being single with having more pocket money

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM

Nigel

Seems to be a typo there ... those are 2 ballads!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:01 AM

Odd - the facsimile version of the register I used (in the British Library) said there were 31 ballads. I misnumbered 2 (call them 15a and 24a) which makes 33. Presumably the 31 in the register ignored the two pairs of ballads in the list, whereas I just cocked up with the numbering.

BTW, I looked up the background of the two "death" ballads. Edward VI died of Tuberculosis (consumption) on 6th July 1553, aged 15. Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, was executed for treason by Henry VIII in 1521 (apparently he got in the way of Wolsey's ambitions).

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 05:47 AM

OK, here's a summary so far:

1. Women be beste whan they be at Reste
Nothing really, though Bruce has notes on an early ballad called "The man is blest, That lyves in rest".


2. A maid that wolde mary with a servynge man
Bruce has notes on a copy of this as originally published, catalogued in Carol R. Livingston's 'British Broadside Ballads of the Sixteenth Century', 1991. Words to follow if it's in an accessibl;e collection!


3. I will have a widow yf ever I marye
Nothing on this as yet.


4. Whan Ragynge love

Words are in Tottel's "Miscellany" (Richard Tottel's "Songs and Sonnets", 1557).


5. The Daye of the lord ys at hande
Nothing. Possibly a religious tract.


6. Who lyve so merye and make suche sporte / As they yat be of the pooreste sorte
The words in Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia are most probably for this. Walrus has suggested that it might be identified with "The Sand Seller".


7. a ballett of THOMALYN
Suspected that this could be Tam Lin, though Bruce thinks it might be Brian O'Lynn.


8. betwene a Ryche farmer and his Doughter
9. An Epytaph upon the Deathe of kynge EDWARDE ye SEXTE
10. a ballett of the talk betwene ij maydes
11. a ballett of good wives
12. The m[o]urninge of EDWARDE Duke of BUCKYNGHAM
Nothing on these as yet.


13. a ballett of the lover and of the byrde
Giac has suggested "Love Henry". How about "The Maid and The Magpie" ;-)


14. Tomorrow shalbe my fathers wake
Nothing on this as yet.


15. a ballett of a man that wolde be unmaryed agayne
Suggested "I Wis I was Single Again".


15a of the ryche man and poore LAZARUS
Generally regarded as being "Dives and Lazarus".


16. a ballett of the ABC of a preste called HEUGH STORMY &c.
Nothing on this as yet. An ABC.


17. a ballytt of [?] made by NYCHOLASSE BALTROPPE
No chance!


18. The aged mans ABC
Nothing on this as yet. An ABC


19. a ballett of wakefylde and agrene
Probably not "The Pinder of Wakefield".


20. a ballett of a mylner
21. a ballett of God send me a wyffe that will Do as I saye
22. a ballett of I will no more go to the ploughe
Nothing on these as yet.


23. another new ballett annexed to the above
No chance!


24. a ballett of admonysshion to leave swerynge
24a a ballett for my solas
Nothing on these as yet.


25. a ballett In winters Juste Retorne
In Tottel's "Miscellany" - see above.


26. a ballett yf ever I mary I will mary a mayde
27. a ballett then and in those Dayes then I say then / knaves that be now will become honest men
28. a ballett yt was a man in age truly
29. a ballett Rose ys frome my garden gonne
Nothing on these as yet.


30. yf Care may Cause men crye
In Tottel's "Miscellany" - see above.


31. The sorrowes that Doth increase
Nothing on this as yet.


Has anyone come across any information about the 2 "death" ballads (9 and 12)? 9 must have been quite popular, as it was re-licensed to someone else the next year (or a different version was licensed). Could 12 have been the original of "Six Dukes Went a'Fishing"? ;-^

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 07:43 AM

Edward duke of Buckingham isn't one of the various dukes who have been proposed as "original" subjects of Six Dukes. I'd tend to vote with Bruce on Thomalyn (Tam o' the Linn, Bryan O'Lynn, etc).

Subject: RE: BS: Quiz - Early Ballads
From: IanC
Date: 04 Oct 02 - 09:28 AM

Just trying the "tongue in cheek" symbol, Malcolm. The history don't fit anyway.

Which of the songs about Millers is anyone going to speculate on for No. 20, by the way?

:-)

PS the auto linebreak feature's a bit too enthusiastic! it even adds line breaks to tags which appear on their own line!!!