BS: Middle East: Solutions

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:28 AM

You hang out with terrorists, you should be real familiar with the clauses in your life insurance.

I think there is more than one way to go here. Each strike on terrorists reinforces the side which perceives the terrorists as effective. But each 'successful' strike on terrorists reduces their effectiveness.

The extreme difference in frame of reference here, between packed venues of admirers of Hamas and their leaders, and those who seek a negotiated settlement, WHICHEVER SIDE THEY ARE ON, I think is the real war.

When Meir Kahane was assassinated in Israel, I don't recall packed halls of Israelis proclaiming the loss of a martyr and vowing bloody vengeance.

The safe and accurate prediction: More of same.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:21 PM

Some of this sounds to me like saying Eichmann shouldn't have been dealt with because he was kidnapped from the house on Garibaldi street so he could be brought to trial in Israel. Mt God, why is it only the Israelis who should play 'fair'?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:07 PM

Fair?

How about just not acting in a way that will produce exactly the opposite result from the one they say they want?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

How about just not acting in a way that will produce exactly the opposite result from the one they say they want?

Kind of like the Palestinian terrorists who know that every time they murder Israelis, more Palestinians than that are likely to be killed in the reprisals that they know will come from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

Your "temporarilies" sounds very optimistic to me, C-watch. Whistling in the wind. There is no reason on earth to think that the killing of an old blind paraplegic in a wheelchair could in any way weaken an organisation like Hamas. His importance was as a symbol, and his power as a symbol has been magnified now.

Absolutely the last thing you wish to do, if you want to kill a movement is to kill some charismatic leader in a way that makes him appear a martyr. You'd really think after all these years the penny would have dropped.

Hamas is a movement that depends on supporters, and all the indications are that this killing will lead to a surge of support among people who have previously been disengaged or suspicious - and not just in Palestine. I have a horrible feeling that it is also going to make it much much easier for Al Qaeda to recruit.

"the day in which I will die as a shahid [martyr] will be the happiest day of my life." (Al-Quds, July 26, 1998) I suppose Israel has made him happy. No joke, C-watch, that's probably true. He made a point of travelling then same route to and from the mosque, and he knew that Israel had targetted him before. He knew that his death would strengthen Hamas. If he saw the missile coming he undoubtedly did die happy.

From the point of view of Sharon it may well be a success, assuming, as seems reasonable, that he is not concerned to get rid of terrorism, but to use it as a way of furthering his aims. But for ordinary Israelis, and potentially for all of the rest of us, this was a disastrous act. "It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake" as the saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:28 PM

By the above logic, all around him should have died happy, knowing they were accompanying a self-proclaimed martyr to glory.

That kind of logic is a closed circuit, much as human aspirations which seek to reinforce themselves via self-fulfilling prophecies.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM

There is no reason on earth to think that the killing of an old blind paraplegic in a wheelchair could in any way weaken an organisation like Hamas.

Yassin was a paraplegic since age 12. It's evident that being wheelchair-bound never hampered his ability to orchestrate terrorism. He founded Hamas in 1987 and proved perfectly capable of building the organization to its current strength from a sitting position.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:41 PM

Kind of like the Palestinian terrorists who know that every time they murder Israelis, more Palestinians than that are likely to be killed in the reprisals that they know will come from Israel.

There's no cause and effect there whatsoever. Israel continues to kill Palestinians even when the Palestinians are conducting unilateral cease-fires. Palestinians know that they will be killed and their houses demolished no matter what they do. And they are right. And by behaving in this way, Israel removes any incentive the Palestinians might have for not conducting reprisals of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:47 PM

And how does being dead do anything to reduce his symbolic power? He's far more dangerous now than he ever was when he was alive.

Where does this fantasy come from that killing an individual who is some kind of leader is going to weaken or destroy a movement or organisation?

I believe when Hitler heard that Roosevelt had died, there was great rejoicing, because he thought it might make some difference to the American war effort.

It doesn't work like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM

All the same things could be said about killing Bin Laden. He's an old man with kidney disease who probably needs (or will soon need) dialysis and his eyes are probably failing; he probably won't be the mastermind of too many more attacks. By killing him, the US will create a martyr, get more people to join Al Qaeda, etc, etc.

But don't tell me for a minute that this is the REASON Bush wants to kill him. Bush is acting out of a desire for revenge, and a desire to show strength. This is the same thing the Israelis are trying to do. To claim they have bizarre ulterior motives of INCREASING violence against their own civilians in order to perpetuate war is just wild conspiracy theory.

And by the way, I don't agree with Sharon's action, and don't necessarily agree with Bush's actions against Bin Laden (I'll have to see them first). I am generally pretty liberal. But to demonize the right (in any country) by saying they WANT their own civilians to be killed in order to fulfill a larger political agenda goes pretty far, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:05 PM

There's no cause and effect there whatsoever. Israel continues to kill Palestinians even when the Palestinians are conducting unilateral cease-fires. Palestinians know that they will be killed and their houses demolished no matter what they do.

CarolC,

That is false propagandizing. There have been no "unilateral cease-fires" by the Palestinians. On the rare occasions that the Palestinian Authority has agreed to, or called for, a cease-fire, they've been shattered by either Yassin's Hamas or Arafat's own Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade.

It takes at least two sides to have a conflict. When I look back at what you've written about this conflict on this forum, it is painfully obvious that you place 100% of the responsibility on one side and one side only. Although I'm pro-Israeli, I know it's not that simple and that the Palestinians do have legitimate demands and that a negotiated settlement is ultimately inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:07 PM

All the same things could be said about killing Bin Laden.

I agree witht his completely. Bush should not be trying to kill bin Laden. bin Laden should be captured and brought to trial in front of an international court.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM

No, in this case, GUEST, C-watch, it is what you are saying that is "false propagandizing". There have been unilateral cease-fires on the part of the Palestinians that were shattered when the Israeli government conducted "targeted killings" of Palestinians leaders. In the last of these (prior to the killing of Yassin), the target of the assaination survived, but his small child was killed. It was after that killing that the Palestinians ended their own, self imposed cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:28 PM

Mcgrath is right .Sharon believes that the only way the State of Isreal can survive in the long term,is to escalate the conflict to the extent that America is forced to move against both the Palistinians and finally the whole of Islam.
Although I understand the crime that has been committed against the Palistinians,and I would hope for a two state settlement,I fear that even if Sharon is a monster, His analyis may well be correct...

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

So, do we now 'justify' violence? Because if it's gonna be wrong, then it has to be wrong for everyone, NO excuses. No buts.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:49 PM

Yes Brucie we all hate violence, but most States cynically use violence to further their agendas.
How many times has America tried to murder Fidel?.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:50 PM

No, brucie. I don't think we should justify any violence. The Palestinians have been calling for, asking for, and even begging for international monitors and peacekeepers to be placed in the Occupied Territories. I think this request shoud be granted, and the Palestinians should receive the protection of the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:51 PM

Bingo. Now, we got lift off.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM

Seems to me that an awful lot of people do justify violence, provided it's from the side they identify with.

I don't believe that in general political leaders, on either side, do these kind of things to make themselves feel good, even if in some cases it does make them feel good. They operate on the basis of calculating what the results will be, both on their own side and on the other side.

It seems pretty obvious to me that one effect of this assassination will be to strengthen Hamas, and to strengthen the kind of groups who are associated with the Al Qaida franchise. Another set of effects is going to be upon the way Israelis, and those who support Israel, feel towards Sharon and his government.

Obviously there's a limit on speculation as to how the effects are going to balance out, and also on how Sharon and his team calculate it is going to work out.

My instinct is that the upsurge in violence and the increase in the strength of Al Hamas and its friends that can be anticipated is seen as a desirable result by Sharon, as a calculated sacrifice for a greater gain.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and it's seen as undesirable, but worthwhile when balanced against some perceived domestic political advantage. Very likely we will never know. But I don't think there's anything particularly bizarre about this kind of notion - it's an elementary chess strategy to sacrifice pieces for a reason. After all, this happens all the time in the case of organisations deploying suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:22 PM

The Palestinians have been calling for, asking for, and even begging for international monitors and peacekeepers to be placed in the Occupied Territories.

What is left out of that statement is that the Palestinian Authority has been asking for peacekeepers to be deployed if Israel follows through on Sharon's plan to withdraw Israeli settlements and forces from Gaza. It doesn't take much to figure out that protection from Israel is secondary to protection of the Palestinian Authority from the greater threat of Hamas.

Read about it from Al Jazeerah's info site. Hardly a pro-Israeli source.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

There seems to be a problem with that link to Al Jazeera.

Try this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

And with Hamas greatly strengthened now by this assassination... That, I think, is one of the main reasons it happened.

No Palestine Authority which has any real authority, and there's no negotiating partner. And when you don't want to negiotiate, because you think it's not in your interest, that is just what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,mgarvey
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

Where are the suggestions? Well, I have some...
1) give right or return to people whose former villages are now abandoned..I think there are quite a few.
2)   Have extensive vocational education for Palestinians. Have those who wish to become experts in mobile rescue operations...this can be done even from the camps...if there is an earthquake or natural disaster mobilize them to help with medical and construction help.
3) Find some employment that the world can offer them in cramped quarters..one thing that comes to me is optomotry..or making eyeglasses, dentures etc.
4) US and former colonies of British Empire offer massive immigration for millions of carefully screened people to get them out of camps.
5) Somehow turn around thinking so they can live somewhere else and still have Palestine as a homeland..like Mother Ireland etc.
6)   Repair of housing that has been bombed etc.
7) Trips out of the camps..excursions to other areas for peaceful vacations, work projects, help with harvests here and there..to help counteract the overcrowding etc....especially for children and young adults.
8)   More worldwide interaction..again much for children and young adults..they keep asking "why does the world hate us." (See Children International Site for messages from the children).
9)   Ways for them to continue their traditional arts (needlework for the women) and crafts.
10) Medical facilities in place so they do not have to cross checkpoints.
11) Ways for them to grow food in their occupied lands..
12) More respect in general for their history and needs..with simultaneous zero tolerance for terrorism.
13) Better control of what they are teaching kids in schools paid for by U.N. etc...stick to non-propoganda.
14) Ways to get the garbage and sanitation issues resolved.

That is all for now. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:22 PM

What is left out of that statement is that the Palestinian Authority has been asking for peacekeepers to be deployed if Israel follows through on Sharon's plan to withdraw Israeli settlements and forces from Gaza.

The Palestinians have been asking for years for peacekeepers to be deployed... long before this "plan" of Sharon's to pull out of Gaza became part of the equation. So your use of the term "left out of that statement" is nothing but hyperbole.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:42 PM

Somehow turn around thinking so they can live somewhere else and still have Palestine as a homeland..like Mother Ireland etc

That's happenimngh in principle already, actually - there are Palestinians in a diaspora all over the world, including the USA. Like Irish emigrants they retain their love of the mother country, but have no plans to uproot themselves and return home. However, unlike Irish emigramts, if home is in Israel itself, they don't have that option. Nor, in real terms, do they have it, if their home is in Gaza or the West Bank.

I think it is very likely that in the context of a peaceful settlement, either a two state one, or a one-state one for that matter, most Palestinians would very likely live outside the Holy Land, in the same way that most Jews do, and playing very similar role in the societies they lived in.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,She who saw Chomsky on Mass. Ave.
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM

CarolC's demand for peacekeepers is premature. The prerequisite to peacekeepers is peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:10 PM

So, how about peacemakers?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:03 AM

Or protectors or monitors. I bet any of these would be preferable to the Palestinians than the current situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:22 AM

Peace? Ahhhh, that elusive element can not be reached until there is a chizzeled in stone agreement that provides Isreal with a declaration of it's right to survive at the exact same time providing for a Palestian state.

Ain't rocket science...

There aren't any other options here short of nukin' all the Palestinians...

You pick............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:11 AM

There's Bobert with his "nuking the Palestinians" fixation again. When you bring that up you remind me of the beloved but weird uncle at the family gathering, Bobert. Like him, I know you don't mean it!

Actually, your "other" solution, of a treaty guaranteeing Israel's rights AND establishing a Palestinian State, is what I hope will happen eventually too.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:56 AM

UN Peacekeepers/Monitors have been deployed in that area on and off since 1956. They have proved to be fairly marginal and ineffective.

UN has never, ever, had a "Peacemaker" role. Those advocating such a role should have a look at the UN Charter which defines the bounds of what UN "Blue" helmets can and cannot do - it is limited to establishing a "peace line", interposing it's (UN) troops between the parties in conflict to physically keep them apart until talks start and a negotiated settlement can be reached. They can only come into such a situation if invited, they cannot impose their presence.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:52 AM

But, as kendall asked way back, what does "Israel's right to survive" actually mean? If, in the course of time, people defined as Jews were no longer in a majority, would that mean the country had ceased to exist? If there had been no flight of refugees in 1948 that state of affairs would very likely exist today, even within the boundaries of Israel.

..............................

Peacekeeping is difficult and dangerous, whether it is done by outsiders who have been shipped in to do so, or by people recruited locally. So is maintaining an army of occupation.

There aren't any risk-free options. Whatever happens there are going to be people who suffer. Anyone who undertakes a role as a peacemaker or a monitor knows that there is a possibility that they will be killed, and when that happens it does not mean that what they were doing was a mistake and a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:05 AM

It's always amusing to see this Bobert character mentioning nukes.

Bobert, an American, the citizen of the only country in the world to ever use nukes on human beings.

Not once has Bobert's country used nukes on human beings. Bobert's country has done it twice.

And in the years since Bobert's country became the first and only country in the world to use nukes on human beings, Bobert's country has amassed an arsenal of nukes greater than that of all the rest of the world combined.

As long as Bobert's own country maintains and expands their arsenal of nukes, nobody in Israel has anything to learn from any American, escpecially one named Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:20 AM

It's always amusing to see the tireless pontificationg of CarolC.

CarolC, another American, a citizen of the most imperialistic occupying force of the contemporary world.

Israel's occupation can be argued on the basis of direct defense and terrorist threats.

CarolC's country, though, commits war and occupation, and kills 10 times more innocent civilians in a year than Israel has in 37 years, purely in the name of oil and to avenge a slight to CarolC's president's daddy.

As long as CarolC's own country is occupying Iraq and any other country, nobody in Israel has anything to learn from any American, escpecially one named CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:28 AM

It's also always amusing to read the endless moralizing of McGrath of Harlow.

McGrath of Harlow, a citizen of the country whose imperialistic empire is responsible for the mess that is today's Middle East.

McGrath of Harlow, a citizen of the country that is America's main accomplice in a war and occupation that has killed 10 times more innocent civilians in a year than Israel has in 37 years.

As long as McGarth of Harlow's own country continiues to behave as it does, nobody in Israel has anything to learn from any Brit, escpecially one named McGrath of Harlow.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

And GUEST lives where?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:15 AM

GUEST is on a roll!

Well, Kevin, I would guess that he does not live in Great Britain, the U. S., and certainly not West Virginia!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:30 AM

CarolC, another American, a citizen of the most imperialistic occupying force of the contemporary world.

You're absulotely dead-on correct there.

Israel's occupation can be argued on the basis of direct defense and terrorist threats.

No it can't. It's creating those "threats" itself with it's own behavior, just as the US is creating the very "threats" it purports to be fighting against with its own behavior.

CarolC's country, though, commits war and occupation, and kills 10 times more innocent civilians in a year than Israel has in 37 years, purely in the name of oil and to avenge a slight to CarolC's president's daddy.

Yes. And I condemn the actions of my country in this respect. And my country is also responsible for the many hundreds of innocent Palestinians and the several hundreds of innocent Israelis killed in recent years, by virtue of having paid for the weapons that make all of this possible.

As long as CarolC's own country is occupying Iraq and any other country, nobody in Israel has anything to learn from any American, escpecially one named CarolC.

On the contrary. They can, if they want, learn that it is not always in one's best interest to follow the leaders of one's country like a bunch of sheep. Sometimes our leaders are WRONG. I know the leaders of my country are, and so are the leaders of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:53 AM

Well, is it time yet to whitewash the Palestinians? Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM

Everyone is an example.
Either bad or good.
Wisdom is knowing which is which.
Intelligence is choosing to emulate the good.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:04 AM

How many Zionists does it take to screw a lightbulb?

Zionists don't screw lightbulbs, they screw Palestineans.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:55 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 23 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

"And with Hamas greatly strengthened now by this assassination... That, I think, is one of the main reasons it happened."

I believe you could be right there Kevin. The emergence of Hamas as the organisation speaking for the Palestinian people would do two things:

1. Get rid of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority, which has never had any authority, or at least has never exercised it for fear of losing what support it has. Arafat's motives as leader of this organisation ran more towards financial gain - any solution cuts off his own opportunities to rob the Palestinian people.

2. It injects a bit of reality into the "Peace Process". On the one side you will have the Israeli's and on the other side you will have the Palestinian organisation whose sole reported aim is the total destruction of the State of Israel.

The Israeli's have shown time and time again that they are fully prepared to negotiate. The Palestinian Authority has flirted with the idea but have proved as constant in their intent as a wind-sock, shackled to the likes of the Al-Aqsa Brigade, Hamas and Hezbollah, whose position is stated time and time again as non-negotiable.

At last the Palestinian side of the arguement will be shown clearly to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:47 PM

For the second time in a week, Arafat's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade strapped a bomb onto a child and tried to blow him up at an Israeli chekpoint. This time a mentally retarded boy.

The family of the teenager said he was gullible and easily manipulated.

"He doesn't know anything, and he has the intelligence of a 12-year-old," said his brother, Hosni.

In the newspaper interview, Abdo said he wanted to reach paradise, which he was taught in school was the reward for suicide bombers.

"A river of honey, a river of wine and 72 virgins. Since I have been studying Quran I know about the sweet life that waits there (in Paradise)," the newspaper quoted the boy as saying.

Here's the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:23 PM

I'm quite able to imagine that there are people in the business of terorism who are quite capable of doing that kind of stuff - but I have a nasty feeling that there is something a bit too neat and tidy about that story, with the photos and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

Well gol danged, GUEST... That was purdy danged rude on yer part... Hey, why ya' associatin' me with the nuking of Japan. I weren't even born yet so I have as good an alibi as one can come up with.

But, with that said, I think it was wrong to drop a nuclear bomb on Japan. And the second one was beyond wrong. It was dispicable and as immoral as anything that has ever been done....

All that needed top be done was tocommunicate to the Japanese that the US would be conducting a "test" somewhere off its coast line without divulging where exactly it would occur. This would have demonstrated the US's power and forced the same results, sans the massive collaterial damage...

As fir the Middle East? I'msticken with the plan I've put forth so very many times. The Saudi Porposal (Mitchell proposal).

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:04 PM

Everyone seems to be getting bogged down in trying to find a solution to the "Palistine problem". what we should realise is that the Israeli, Palistinian conflict is only the sharp end of an even bigger struggle between Islam and Western capitalism,and the people, as always, are being used as pawns.
To my mind there will never be a "solution", as there are too many vested interests willing to escalate the violence.
Israel may be the theatre today,but the shows' coming to a venue near YOU someday soon ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

Up till now what's been happening in Israel isn't really about that, it's about two bunches of people who've been pushed their homes trying to find some way of living together in a small patch of land. Compoicated by considerations of electoral politics in the USA.

This assassination has probably pushed it a lot closer to being subsumed in the wider conflict akenaton refers to; I think this is one of the main reasons it happened.

But I'd disagree with the formula "struggle between Islam and Western capitalism"; there are two struggles going on in the world today. One is a struggle by predatory capitalism to assimilate just about every other form of activity (a bit like the Borg in Star Trek), and the other is a bid by a cult within Islam to take advantage of this situation to achieve a dominant position.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:33 PM

Yo, Ake, I'm not ready to throw in the towel quite yet. The Palestianians aren't like some backwoods hillbilly tribe. They understand capatilism purdy well. Like I say, there is hope there if the US would get behind someone else's framework.... But, no, if the US can't fix it then it can't be fixed! What a crock!

And the beat goes on, and on........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:57 AM

akenaton's, "even bigger struggle between Islam and Western capitalism" is a gross over-simplification, in which he compares apples to oranges.

Islam is a religion, capitalism is a system of economics, neither are political parties and neither can "run" a country.

I can think of many "Islamic" countries that totally embrace "western capitalism" without any problems and thrive doing so.

That a small minority of Islamic fundamentalists have a problem with western capitalism I can see, because the benefits the latter brings tends to undermine the power to control of the fundamentalist leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:49 AM

One issue that nobody has adressed is time.    I can assure you that this is of monumental concern in Israel.   The arab population in Israel is growing at a far higher rate than the Jewish population.   There are projections that the arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel in the next 10/15/25 years depending on who you ask.   What happens then?   Does Israel become South Africa where the minority rule the majority?   This is a major issue that must be addressed.   The status quo cannot be maintained as it is with terrorism and retaliation.   time is running our for Israel.

In dealing with Palestineans right to have a homeland you have to ask the question- Is it a country or a people.   If so please asnwer these questions:

What is their currency?   What year did they become a country?   What is their constitution?   What is their progression of leadership? What is their election process? Where does their currency compare on the world market? Are they recognized by the UN or other countries? Do they have an embassy or ambassadors?   Do they have any formal treaties or alliances?   I could go on.

My contention is that the Palestinians are far closer to a terrorist organization than they are to a country.   Therefore negotiation is not an option.