BS: Afghan War mistake or wise

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Sawzaw
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 12:00 PM

Bobert: "Now when a polician says stuff like "

No drama Obama is supposed to be different from those other politicians.

What is different?

Where is the change?

Where's the beef?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 12:33 PM

OUR LAST 64 YEARS OF PEACE HAVE BEEN HAVE BEEN ENJOYED BECAUSE [of]GOOD OLD UNCLE SAM

You betcha, T-zer:

---------

COPS OF THE WORLD

by Phil Ochs, (c)1966, 1968 Barricade Music, Inc.

Come, get out of the way, boys, quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys, better watch what you say
We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the fort
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

We pick and choose as we please, boys
Pick and choose as we please
You'd better get down on your knees, boys
You'd best get down on your knees
We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
And we don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

Our boots are needing a shine, boy, boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys, Coca-Cola is fine
We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

And dump the REds in a pile, boys, dump the Reds in a pile
You'd better wipe off that smile, boys, better wipe off that smile
We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
And we'll find you a leader that you can elect
Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

And clean the johns with a rag, boys, clean the johns with a rag
If you like, you can use your flag, boys, if you like, you can use your flag
We've got too much money; we're looking for toys
Guns will be guns, and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we've destroyed
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

And please stay off of the grass, boys, please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys, here's a kick in the ass
We'll smash down your doors; we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock
We're the biggest and toughest kids on the block
And we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

And when we've butchered your sons, boys, when we've butchered your sons
Have a stick of our gum, boys, have a stick of our bubblegum
We own half the world, oh say can you see
And the name for our profits is democracy
So like it or not you will have to be free
'Cause we're the cops of the world, boys, we're the cops of the world

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:13 PM

It's interesting that the US is the police dog for the world whereas under it's watch,
there has been the Korean War, the Vietnam War and two even longer wars, Afghanistan,
Iraq and wait, I left out Pakistan. This hardly qualifies this country to be a protector
of peace. As a matter of fact with our present Warmonger-in-Chief, we have a protracted
financial drain on our economy to look forward to with money that could have been used
for constructive ends such as putting our citizens back to work. Instead, war has been the racket that is bolstered by the Military Industrial Complex and a lot of tin-pot generals
who think they can cash in on the war machine.

The old fat white men are sending young men to war. That's the tradition.
Many of the young men are from poverty backgrounds and they fall for the scam.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:17 PM

Well then GregF you ask a couple Germans say born just after the Second World War, one from West Berlin and the other from East Berlin, which was the better - living under US protection or under the Soviets. I know what the answer to that will be, and I guess you do too.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

Lonesome El, Mikey Weinstein has blown the whistle on the Christianization of the military. You can Google him.

McChrystal has made similar noises as Boykin but you won't find that on the mainstream media.

The American military today is saturated with Christianization and the Islam is the target.
That has been well-documented and McChrystal is not immune to this disease.

It needs to be said again that Osama may have taken credit for 911 but it was Zawahiri
from Egypt who planned and executed that attack.

Also, the Taleban is not Al Quaeda. They are two different factions. Al Quaeda for the most part is not in Afghanistan but not just Pakistan either. Recruitment is being done all over the globe because of American occupation of Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Fighting the Taleban will not stop Al Quaeda. The only real solution is to recognize the cultural defects of this Islamic group and to counteract with education, knowledge of the respective cultures involved, and start honest reconstruction in Afghanistan and not
the manipulative goal of possessing land, oil or dominating a foreign culture for business and political advantages. With the track record of allowing museums to be looted in Iraq,
and a billion dollars missing that was to be appropriated for reconstruction, the prognosis for Afghanistan as it is for Iraq looks bleak.

Meanwhile, the Military Industrial Complex, the mercernaries such as Blackwater, Armour Group, Triple Canopy, Halliburton and other private contractors are ripping off U.S. and the U.K.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM

There is less warfare than has ever been .
I read this in new Scientist.
I can not find a NS link, but this discusses the piece.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1018/p01s01-wogi.html

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM

"It needs to be said again that Osama may have taken credit for 911 but it was Zawahiri from Egypt who planned and executed that attack."

The original idea for the 9/11 attack came from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (1996). Osama bin Laden reviewed and refined the plan between 1996 and 1998 when he ordered his Chief of Operations Mohammed ATEF to put the plan into effect. During 1999 the plan ran into problems related to the personnel selected and Osama bin Laden called a halt until that problem was solved. Late 1999 Mohammed ATTA and four others went to Afghanistan from Germany where they were personally selected to lead the hijacking teams by none other than Osama bin Laden himself.

"Also, the Taleban is not Al Quaeda. They are two different factions. Al Quaeda for the most part is not in Afghanistan but not just Pakistan either. Recruitment is being done all over the globe because of American occupation of Afghanistan, and Iraq."

Al-Qaeda is pretty much a spent force, and no recruitment is not going on all over the world because of American occupation of anywhere. The thing that killed Al-Qaeda off were the "Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq" attacks on muslim non-combatants, the comdemnation of those attacks by Zawahiri that went unheeded by Zarqawi, and the admission that "Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq" had been defeated. From that point on recruitment and support for Al-Qaeda dropped through the floor.

"Fighting the Taleban will not stop Al Quaeda."

It will however give a pretty good idea of the price to be paid by any rag-tag bunch who own whatever corner of whatever failed state who are thinking about providing Al-Qaeda with somewhere to call home and set up shop. Personally I wish Al-Qaeda would go back to the Sudan and we could then kill two birds with one stone. There again Somalia would serve the same purpose.

"The only real solution is to recognize the cultural defects of this Islamic group and to counteract with education, knowledge of the respective cultures involved, and start honest reconstruction in Afghanistan and not the manipulative goal of possessing land, oil or dominating a foreign culture for business and political advantages."

And who is going to protect those attempting to start that honest reconstruction? Possessing land? What land? Possessing oil? What oil?

Last time I looked Iraq seemed to be doing rather well.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

The thing that killed Al-Qaeda off were the "Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq" attacks on muslim non-combatants.

So the invasion of Iraq made it possible for Al Qaeda to become active in the country, and the consequence of this was that it behaved in ways that alienated Muslims who would otherwise never have had any contact with it.

Interesting logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:23 PM

Teribus:

Thanks for stoutly defending your views and mustering the data to do so.

I am concerned about the operation in Afghanistan primarily because, as with many wars involving guerillas and thuggees, it is nebulous. It will not end in a capitulation. I sometiems wonder if we will ever again see a war in which one side surrenders in a formal ceremony. But the question remains what the end game will be. If it depends on the standing up of a robust police force and military under Afghan government, it opens the door to another problem, namely whether the roots of insanity have been extirpated enough to prevent the nation from going mad (again) using their newly organized police and military, and shooting themselves in the foot or someone else in the back.

In any case I think the overthrow of the Taleban is a laudable goal simply because of the oppression they bring to bear on society when left to their own devices. Like most people here, I think, I wish there had been no war in Afghanistan. And I wish the causes of the bin Laden attack were more clearly understood and more easily preventable from recurrence.

Unfortunately wishing does not make things so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

""Well then GregF you ask a couple Germans say born just after the Second World War, one from West Berlin and the other from East Berlin, which was the better - living under US protection or under the Soviets. I know what the answer to that will be, and I guess you do too.""

That's a good example of the arrogance of our self appointed world police force.

I had, until recently, a German aunt, who came over to the UK in 1948, and I am here to tell you that what the US military did in West Germany wasn't protection, it was occupation, and they didn't like it one bit more than the East Germans liked the Russian occupation.

Also, don't try to tell me I should be grateful to the USA for their eventual participation in the war in Europe. One thing everybody in this country knows is that the US would have sat back and watched, had the Japs not bombed Pearl Harbour, and forced their entry into the war, and you know what? We would have won, with or without them.

So if it's gratitude you are after, you're out of luck. Why don't you try the South Koreans, or the South Vietnamese? Better yet the Iraqis or the Afghans. They may be feeling grateful, those that are still alive and unwounded.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:10 AM

"don't try to tell me I should be grateful to the USA for their eventual participation in the war in Europe."

What was that little line you threw into one of your posts about doing your research before posting, ah yes this one:

"Seems that you need a little more diligence in researching your responses, mate."

Sixty-four years back takes us to what point in time you prat, my arithmetic produces the year 1945, which would suggest I have been talking about the post-war era, which means that your feelings and opinions about the USA's entry and participation in the Second World War are irrelevant.

As far as the Second World War goes, had Japan not attacked the USA, yes Great Britian, her Empire and her Soviet allies would have eventually defeated the axis powers, but that would have been done at the cost of the loss of the whole of Europe to Soviet enslavement.

Psst your not the only person with German relations and friends and mine, tell a very different story to that of your Aunt, who as you left Germany in 1948, her views would seem to indicate that she rather enjoyed the "glory" years of the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:34 AM

Oh Don as a postscipt, while Great Britain, her Empire and the Soviets may have been able to eventually defeat the Axis powers, having achieved that victory without that little thing called the "Marshall Plan" we would have been stuffed, and while the Soviets may have assisted in defeating Germany I believe that they would have sat back and watched as far as our struggle against Italy and Japan, in the hope that in our further weakened state we would fall to them too.

Have we got a great deal to be thankful to the United States of America?? Bloody right we have - the whole of the free world has.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:19 PM

The last time I looked Iraq was still a bloody mess. The idea that it is doing well is ludicrous.

Those in the military today are not interested in helping the Iraqi people or the Afghan people. They are only interested in furthering their military pseudo-security aims.
In fact, they are undermining any real security the world has from Islamic extremists.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was working with Zawahiri in conjunction with the 911 attacks.
It has not even been successfully confirmed that the hi-jackers were really who the media says they were. There remains a question as to their real identity.

Blackwater and other paid private mercenaries are acting like a "ragtag bunch" in all three
Mid-east countries.

There is no way the Soviets would have enslaved the world. They didn't have the resources. For that matter, even Germany didn't have them as well.
WWII was a geopolitical decision that could have wound down through other ways
then the bombing of Dresden or the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But the political wartime jingoism and propaganda precluded a real solution to the problem rather than the
trumped up "oh-but-we-saved-lives-through-atom-bombs" argument.

As a matter of fact, the US had much to gain through military adventures. It helped bolster their economy at the time. Remember that even FDR didn't consider the plight of the Jews in Germany a priority. The Bank of America financed Hitler in the early days.
The Graf Zeppelin flew across America without protest. One of the reasons that Hitler was financed was that he was seen as a deterrent to the ambitions of the Soviets.

Today, the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan may turn out to rival the "glory of the Third Reich". It has become evident that war is the foreign policy solutions to the world's social problems.

Today, in the US, we have the typical "Wag The Dog" scenario. A wartime president has more clout than a peacetime one. There is no money to be made in peacetime pursuits.

The US military is not in the business of protecting the Iraqi and Afghan people but defending the right to control and govern these countries in accordance to their business dealings and trumped-up "security" concerns. Some of the American people are being played as puppets by fueling their failure to win a victory in Vietnam. As a result, these people support tin-pot generals and puffed-up bullies.

On top of all of this, the US military today is re-inventing the Crusades. Christianity vrs. Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:53 PM

"Today, in the US, we have the typical "Wag The Dog" scenario."

Guess that that is the trouble with you lot, you watch too many movies and you end up actually believing them.

"They are only interested in furthering their military pseudo-security aims."

WTF??? In plain English please, just a load of meaningless babble.

"There is no way the Soviets would have enslaved the world."

Really they didn't too bad a job with most of eastern Europe.

"There is no way the Soviets would have enslaved the world. They didn't have the resources."

So you do not doubt their intent then, your only comment is that they did not have the resources, well Stringsinger they had twice the resources that Germany had in 1940 and the Germans did not seem to have had that much trouble with the task.

Psst Stringsinger more people died in the USA last night in road traffic accidents than were killed in Iraq or in Afghanistan combined. What you lack is perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

It's no movie, T, that Georg W. used 9/11 as a backdrop to every domestic policy his administration forwarded on to Congress and it's no secret that he also used Iraq, until it was apparent to everyone that it was a failed policy decision, to bolster his domestic agenda, as well... Proclaming otherwise is just that... Proclaming...

Strings is entirely correct in throwing in the "Wag the Dog" compariaon... That's the way it went down... No revisionism can change that...

As for the Soviets running Europe... It is very unlikely... They weren't stupid and the reality that Germany didn't have the resources to do it I'm sure was a model that the Soviets would have thought very hard about before putting themselves in a very difficult and vulnerable position... Occupations histroically haven't been all they are cracked up to be...

And the fact that more Americans died in traffic accidents last night than in Afganistan yesterday is a red herring... If you look at the wealth that the US has spent on both of these dumb wars and look at it's domestic needs it is incongruent to think only in terms of body count alone... Rediculous arguemnt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

Obviously, if the idea is how many people you can kill, doing it on the roads of your own country is much more cost effective than achieving the same body count by means of foreign wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

What is lacking here are the facts. The Soviets didn't have the weaponry that they were reputed to have. And you see what has happened in Eastern Europe. Ultimately,
the Germans did not prevail and wouldn't have been able to despite WWII. They would not have been able to successfully govern the rest of the world. The US is running into the same trouble trying to govern Afghanistan and Iraq. (Sudatenland, anyone?)

The Russians had a lot to do with repelling the Germans at the Battle of Stalingrad. As to their sitting back and waiting for the US to be defeated, this was not in their best interest at the time.FDR had a policy of embracing "Uncle Joe" as it served the US interests to do so. The idea that Soviets could have ruled the world through enslavement is pure hype
and scare tactics. They had no such capabilities even though they had a nuclear stockpile.

I notice that there are lot of stats being presented here as is they were final and authoritative.

The traffic accident stats are specious at best. There is no way that these
stats can be calibrated by people who have done no real research of this issue particularly by someone who doesn't live in the US.

Here is my point about military pseudo-security aims. The use of enemy posing and
threats is a controlling device that is employed by power-hungry politicians and generals for the purpose of manipulating public opinion. Too bad that's characterized as babble. I think that this view reflects how badly the public is manipulated by jingoism and wartime propaganda.

"Wag the Dog" was a novel before it was a movie by Larry Beinart who had a prescient view of how presidents behave. Most of them concoct wars to remain powerful
"Commander-in-Chiefs". This is a realistic perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:46 PM

"... the trouble with you lot, you watch too many movies and you end up actually believing them."

Read posts:

Bobert 19 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

&

Stringsinger 19 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

World history as defined by Walt Disney and Hollywood

I rest my case.

Wag the fuckin' dog indeed. Bloody well grow up and start adding a bit of commonsense and reason to your lives, you will find it a novel experience, the pair of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:05 AM

""Sixty-four years back takes us to what point in time you prat, my arithmetic produces the year 1945, which would suggest I have been talking about the post-war era, which means that your feelings and opinions about the USA's entry and participation in the Second World War are irrelevant.""

OK friend, so leaving out WW2 which might possibly have given some dubious weight to your argument, for what precise actions of the mighty US of A during those sixty four years should we be eternally grateful?

Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, and what next, Iran?

Explain what factor in these interferences with the domestic activities of all these countries benefitted the UK, and how.

I'd really like to know what I'm supposed to be grateful for, because I don't think that any of this made me and mine safer, rather the reverse in fact, and I don't relish being told it was done in my name.

NOT SO! I'd prefer that everybody got on with their own business, and left other people alone.

BTW, you can of course call me any name you like on here, but it doesn't enhance the credibility of any argument.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 12:30 PM

On the subject of the thread, here's an interesting talk by someone who talked with Afghan women to find out what they wanted...

http://www.miptalk.com/?p=325

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:27 AM

Anyone concerned about the wishes of the Afghan people should consider the reults of this poll.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8448930.stm
Ninety per cent said they wanted their country run by the current government, compared with 6% who said they favoured a Taliban administration.

Sixty-nine per cent believed the Taliban posed the biggest danger to the country, and 66% blamed the Taliban, al-Qaeda and foreign militants for violence in Afghanistan.

Of more than 1,500 Afghans questioned, 70% said they believed Afghanistan was going in the right direction - a big jump from 40% a year ago.

Of those questioned, 68% now back the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, compared with 63% a year ago.

For Nato troops, including UK forces, support has risen from 59% to 62%.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:50 AM

I would be curious to know what percentage of the people who participated in that survey were women. My guess is zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:26 AM

I too would be curious to know what percentage of the people who participated in that survey were women. My guess is between 35 and 40%. My guess being equally as valid as yours Carol - True??

Liknk to questions asked:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_01_10_afghanpoll.pdf

Look at Q3 - Rights of Women

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 01:52 AM

A guess is a guess, Teribus. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 02:02 AM

True enough although some are based on reason, logic and whatever evidence exists. Yours seem to generally be based on your own prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:14 AM

Carol, here are the results in full.
Notice that questions 47 onward the male and female responses are given separately, so women are clearly not zero represented as you guessed.
My guess is that a random sample of adults means just that.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_01_10_afghanpoll.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:42 AM

The nature of Afghani culture requires gender and ethnic matching of interviewer teams to respondents. To meet this need ACSOR maintains a 50% female workforce and a mix of ethnicites across the country. Interviewer teams are embedded in their localities, improving their safety and effectiveness in conducting interviews.
http://www.acsor-surveys.com/public/services.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 02:55 AM

So now we have cleared up the gender thing, how about some discussion?
It appears that the majority of Mudcat contributors are out of touch with the wants, needs and aspirations of the people who actually have to live in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:04 AM

True enough although some are based on reason, logic and whatever evidence exists. Yours seem to generally be based on your own prejudices.

This statement from you is clearly based on your own prejudices.


I had some inherent skepticism about the poll because of what I have heard from people who have spent time with and asked questions of women in Afghanistan. And some of the results don't square with what I have heard. But it's possible that the survey was conducted after what I read and heard was written and said, and things changed during that time. I'll wait until I have more information before I form an opinion about the survey.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:04 AM

Discussion of what exactly Keith?

Was it desirable to defeat the Taleban and drive them from power?

Most certainly, from the point of view of the majority of people living in Afghanistan, for the region and the world as a whole.

Are things improving in Afghanistan as a result of intervention by the international community?

Undoubtedly, after a period of continuous conflict spanning thirty years, conditions within Afghanistan's borders could hardly have deteriorated. As a direct consequence of international intervention in October 2001 things are definitely improving right across the board in Afghanistan, that is undeniable, whether it is as good as it could be is a matter of opinion. Progress would undoubtedly have been much improved had the Taleban not elected to fight the reconstruction effort and UNAMA programmes in 2006.

Will an Afghanistan that has been returned to stable goverment and capable of defending itself from being usurped by fundamental terrorist organisations be in the best interests of the people of Afghanistan and the international community?

Of course it will.

Will any of the above come to pass if the international community pulls out of Afghanistan as rapidly as possible?

Not a hope in hell, all the above would do would be to create a horrendous human catastrophe. Potentially costing the lives of some 8.8 million people and committing the population of Afghanistan and the region to an endless civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 03:03 AM

Evidence not supporting prejudice is must be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM

""Will any of the above come to pass if the international community pulls out of Afghanistan as rapidly as possible?

Not a hope in hell, all the above would do would be to create a horrendous human catastrophe. Potentially costing the lives of some 8.8 million people and committing the population of Afghanistan and the region to an endless civil war.""


Of course pulling out now would be a disaster, there's no gainsaying THAT.

But we never should have been there in the first instance.

Unless the US and the UK are prepared to spread their "altruistic" protection to countries with equally serious, or even worse, human rights problems (Darfur, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Nigeria, China, Tibet etc. etc.) it is hypocrisy to pontificate on the "unselfish" interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When, for example, might we expect them to separate the Israelis from their neighbours' territory, and stop them killing Palestinian civilians?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:57 AM

Evidence not supporting prejudice is must be ignored.

I guess you and Teribus ought to know, Keith. I prefer to go with the evidence that has the most credibility, myself.

We all know that polls are not consistent. Three different polling outfits can poll the same population three times and come up with three different sets of results. I am willing to defer to whatever it is that the population of Afghanistan want, but I want to know that the poll hasn't been devised in such a way as to produce a particular result (and we know that polls are often designed in this way). I know that there are women in Afghanistan who want all foreign forces out of their country. I am not going to take the results of a poll conducted by news sources that I don't entirely trust in the first place, as gospel. I need to see corroborating evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghan War mistake or wise
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:13 AM

"But we never should have been there in the first instance." Says Don T.

So not having done anything post-9/11 where would that have left the people of Afghanistan?

- In a continuation of a civil war that had begun in 1979.
- In a country acting as hosts for an International Terrorist Organisation that had just successfully pulled off the greatest terrorist outrage the world had ever seen, and got away with it unscathed. How would that do as a recruiting sergeant Don?

"Unless the US and the UK are prepared to spread their "altruistic" protection to countries with equally serious, or even worse, human rights problems (Darfur, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Nigeria, China, Tibet etc. etc.) it is hypocrisy to pontificate on the "unselfish" interference in Iraq and Afghanistan." More complete and utter crap from Don T.

Please provide me with any evidence that US-Operation Enduring Freedom troops or the NATO led ISAF troops are operating in Afghanistan without sanction of the UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL

As to your list of sample countries where it would be of tremendous benefit if the International Community did get actively and forcefully involved, there is only one organisation to blame for that and that is the UNITED NATIONS. They funked the lot, because that just happened to be the least line of resistance, the UN are past-masters at doing just that, they have been renown for it since inception.