BS: Middle East: Solutions

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 01:30 AM

No, I just wanted to see you use the same verbiage for what Israelis have done, ie: are guilty of crimes against the Palestinians, as you use for what Palestinians have done.

Palestinians/Israelis are guilty of crimes against each other.

This has a very different impact than:

Palestinians are guilty...
Israelis don't have clean hands

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 01:36 AM

You are right. It does. So we agree. They both have dirty hands and they are both guilty of crimes against each other. We agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:45 AM

Yes we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

Carol, I luv ya. Did anyone ever get the last word with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 01:36 PM

I don't know, brucie. Would you like to have the last word this time?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 01:36 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 01:45 PM

.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

If the Palestinians had a voice, maybe they wouldn't need terrorists.

If Zionists could listen, maybe they wouldn't need revenge.

If the U.S. didn't need to control the middle east, maybe we could have peace.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:34 PM

After a couple of days away, it seems pretty clear to me that brucie's original suggestion for this thread, that of trying to pay attention to ideas for solutions, has rather run into the ground. That's thanks largely to the assassination of Sheik Yassin, (together with a bunch of people near him at the time), which seems to have diverted people into arguing about who is are terrorists in this context.

That's an interesting topic, but it's not the same topic. Does this mean there's no point in trying to follow up that earier option?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:44 PM

Good point, McG of H. Correct as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 06:29 PM

If the Palestinians had a voice, maybe they wouldn't need terrorists.

The Palestinians have a voice and certainly don't need terrorism. Terrorism has been disastrous for the Palestinian people. The terrorists know that, in the real world, no government can accept terrorism and will strike back, usually with more damage than the terrorists inflict. Indeed, that has been the case. Before unleashing this wave of terrorism, the Palestinians were on the verge of statehood and enjoyed a flourishing economy. All of that was destroyed when Arafat walked away, rather than continued, the peace talks with Clinton and Barak. As I said, the consequences of terrorism have been disastrous for the Palestinians.

If Zionists could listen, maybe they wouldn't need revenge.

As I said, there is no government in the world that will accept terrorism and not retaliate when it is perpetrated on them. Dianavan, I believe you're from Canada. When domestic terrorists were operating in Canada in 1970, Prime Minister Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act and brought the army into the streets to root it out. More than 500 people, most of them innocent, were imprisoned with trial and charge for the duration.

If the U.S. didn't need to control the middle east, maybe we could have peace.

If the U.S. actually controlled the Middle East, they would have dictated a peace long ago. The fact is, the U.S. actually has very limited influence there.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

More than 500 people, most of them innocent, were imprisoned with trial and charge for the duration.

I meant to say: More than 500 people, most of them innocent, were imprisoned ***without** trial and charge for the duration.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 06:37 PM

Terrorism has been disastrous for everyone, except Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 06:50 PM

Terrorism has been disastrous for everyone, except Sharon.

Oh please, that is a ridiculous statement. If you think that terrorism has not been disastrous for all Israelis, then you know nothing of what's going on in the Middle East.

One effect of terrorism, though, is that it makes rightwingers like Sharon electable. When they feel secure, in the absence of terrorism, Israelis tend to elect leftwing governments. When they're under terrorist siege, they elect rightwing governments. And don't think the Palestinian terrorist masters don't know it. They don't care. If they did, they wouldn't strap bombs onto mentally retarded children.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 07:17 PM

I didn't say "Terrorism has been disastrous for everyone, except the Israelis" - that would indeed have been ridiculous.

How about:

Terrorism has been disastrous for everyone, except Sharon. And Sharon has been disastrous for everyone.

It does seem to me that there is a kind of symbiotic relationship between extremists on both sides on internecine conficts. Of course, that in no way excludes murdering each other. In fact that is a key part of the dynamic process.

...........................

To get back to casting around for solutions, we keep on getting claims about how the Camp David Summit offered the Palestinians everything they could have wanted for a viable sovereign state, and that refusing to accept it on the spot could only be seen as totally unreasonable. If that is actually true, it is obviously important.

But nowhere have I seen a map showing what was actually on offer. The only maps which have turned up show something which is very much less than a "viable sovereign state" - for example. If Israel had been offered a state looking like that, fragmented and enclose, I do not think anyone would suggest that it could have been described in such terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

This site has other maps, as well as a lot of other useful stuff, but no full clear map seems to be available.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:22 PM

All of that was destroyed when Arafat walked away, rather than continued, the peace talks with Clinton and Barak. As I said, the consequences of terrorism have been disastrous for the Palestinians.

The problem with this statement is that it is a complete fabrication.

"The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01)."

Distorting the Camp David negotiations

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:32 AM

And this from Ha'aretz

"The Taba talks began at the height of the intifada, a few weeks before Israel's prime ministerial election, in the face of surveys predicting a resounding defeat for then prime minister Ehud Barak. But Barak nevertheless sent the largest and most senior delegation in Israeli history to continue the negotiations, including then foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami, justice minister Yossi Beilin, transportation minister Amnon Lipkin-Shahak and Meretz Party Chairman Yossi Sarid. Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat also sent his most senior advisers to the talks. But some days later, Barak ordered them stopped."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:25 PM

I hope that someone who can actually DO something about it gets an idea or two from stuff on here. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:36 PM

Here's an article from a pacifist Islamic site (http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/) that makes interesting reading A Muslim Call To The Israelis:

...Our heartfelt wish as Muslims is for the anger and hatred on both sides to die down, for the bloodshed to stop and for peace to come to the Middle East. We oppose both the Israeli killing of the innocent and the Palestinian bombing of innocent Israelis.

In our view, the most important condition for this blind conflict to come to an end and for real peace to be established in the Middle East is for both sides to genuinely and honestly understand and implement their own beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

The Plan
In the beginning there was the plan
And then came the assumptions
And the assumptions were without form
And the plan was completely without substance
And darkness was on the faces of the workers
And they spake unto their Group Heads, saying,
`The plan is a crock of shit, and it stinketh.'

And the Group Heads went unto their Section Heads and sayeth, It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof.'
And the Section Heads went unto their Managers, and sayeth unto them, `This plan is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide it.'

And the Managers went unto their Director, and sayeth unto him, `It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength.'
And the Directors went unto their Director-General, and sayeth, `It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.'

And the Director-General went unto the Assistant Deputy Minister, and
sayeth unto him, `It promoteth growth, and it is very powerful.'
And the ADM went unto the Deputy Minister, and sayeth unto him, `This powerful new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of the department, and this area in particular.' And the Deputy-Minister looked upon the plan, And he saw that it was good; And so the plan became policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 03:06 PM

Hey Dave (tam). It's good to see you here again.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

The exile's return

I keep remembering the utterly prophetic words you let fly one day, stoned out of your mind. You said that perhaps we should set up a sort of protest movement of friends. I would introduce you to all my Israeli friends and you would introduce me to all your Palestinian friends. We would throw a party, you said, turned on by the idea - parties!

Later, all my friends and your friends would introduce each other to all their friends; the thing would grow and grow. People would learn to love each other, learn to forgive each other. There would be comfort, reciprocity, you will see, you said, taking another drag and exhaling the words slowly from your lungs. "It will change the situation, I am telling you, a movement like this could change the whole political map in the Middle East." Then, throwing your head back, you burst out laughing.

That's the ending of a very moving article in today's Guardian. It's a farewell letter from a young Israeli novelist to her friend, a young Palestinian, whom she'd met while they were both living in New York. And now the friend, Hassan Hourani, an artist, has been drowned trying to rescue a young nephew in the sea of Tel Aviv. (Where they legally shouldn't have been, but they'd sneaked in, because they wanted to go for a swim in the Mediterranean, and when your home is in the West Bank, that is not easy to achieve.)

It's a lovely article, full of bits I'd like to quote, because I know often people don't click through and read long articles on the screen. But I really think it's an article that's worth reading for anyone concerned who cares about what happens in the divided country this pair of friend both called "home".

So just two quotes, to push you into opening up the blue clicky:

..."Deep inside you, you know very well that your grandchildren and my grandchildren will live together in this land, so why not now?" you would ask so convincingly, "why not us?"...

...I look from here at who we were in New York and see us as other people saw us - with disbelief. Israelis and Arabs were either amazed or suspicious. We seemed strange when we reminded each other to ring home after every suicide bombing in Israel and with every report of Israeli army operations in the territories. American Jews could not understand how it was that your Arabness is more familiar to me than they will ever be. We come from the same neighbourhood, I used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 04:21 AM

McGrath - That is absolutely beautiful.

I've had a little cry and now I'll say good-night.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:51 AM

As I said in my initial post to this thread: "Unfortunately, I don't see much hope for progress while Bush, Sharon and, especially, Arafat remain in power."

If the Democrats don't blow it, we might well have a new president come next January.

Events unfolding in Israel indicate Sharon's political career is rapidly coming to an end.

And now, a Palestinian alternative to Arafat in Mohammed Dahlan seems to be emerging.

Contradicting CarolC, Mr. Dahlan, who has spent 25 years on the Palestinian front lines, including five years in an Israeli jail, said: "The Palestinian leadership must share the blame for this result. It's not just the occupation."

Read the full article from the Globe & Mail in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:01 AM

That Globe & Mail link wouldn't work for me. But I can't see why that quote is supposed to be "Contradicting CarolC". Pretty obviously the blame for what has gone wrong belongs on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:10 AM

I just tried the link again and it worked for me. Here is the URL if you want to paste it in your browser.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040403/DAHLAN03/International/Idx

He contradicts CarolC in that she has stated in past threads that it is the Israeli occupation that is solely to blame for the conflict. Mr. Dahlan acknowledges culpability on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

I can't see any contradiction at all between saying the Israeli occupation is to blame, and saying that blame also falls on the Palestinian leadership.

The fuller quote gives a fuller picture: "The Palestinian leadership must share the blame for this result. It's not just the occupation. The [Israeli] occupation destroyed the Palestinian Authority. . . . There is no central ruling authority. The visible militant groups are the ones that are in control locally."

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM

We shall see, Guest,C-watch. And who is the alternative to Sharon?

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:06 AM

Frankham - PM
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

1. Get rid of the word "terrorist" to define Hamas. - They should then be defined as what exactly?

2. Both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to exist. - Undeniable, they should.

3. For Israelis, try to understand what Hamas means. - The Israeli's fully understand what Hamas means. Hamas have stated very clearly and often what they mean - The total extermination of the State of Israel.

4. Palestinians....non-violent resistance. - Good idea, but Arafat knows he can't make any money out of that, so he's not going to advocate that line, and none of the other Palestinian terrorist groups are either.

5. UN broker the deal. - I believe they have been trying to do exactly that since 1948. How much time are you and Chomsky going to give them?

Solution: one state with equal governing powers
and Separation of Church and State. - Israel, a secular democracy has already done this, I don't think the Palestinians will ever contemplate such a move - judging by the "thousands" who turned up to see that lamb.

Perhaps a socialist/democracy or capitalist/socialist/democracy. - would depend on who you are expecting to pay for it.

A theocratic solution is doomed to failure. - True, very true, elsewhere in the region, the Government of Iran (12 old gits) are trying awfully hard to convince their population otherwise - and failing.

But Israelis have the right to worship as they choose as do Palestinians. - Also very true.

Caveat: The rest of the Arab world will not allow Israel to bomb Palestinians out of existence. It's not an option. - Does this mean that if the Israeli's are attacked once this plan of yours (or Chomsky's) is put into operation and Israel responds it becomes open season on Israeli's? The Arab nations have tried this in the past and been spectacularly unsucessfull.

The nation of Israel may not be removed without the world community
censuring it. - By God, what a deterrent eh? "world community censure". Roughly that would probably equate to what some of the world community "serious consequences" meant. But as this censure by the "world community" seems only to kick-in once Israel has been attacked and removed, it would be a fairly moot point anyway, which is just as well, as the "world community" in the form of the United Nations is pretty good in situations where all the dust has settled and the bodies are lying on the ground - Rwanda is a good example.

Noam Chomsky still makes the best sense to me. - If the above is anything to go by - He makes absolutely no sense to me - Unless, of course, as a seriously proposed solution, the destruction and erradication of the State of Israel, is seen as an acceptable solution. Maybe some do, Hamas for certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:30 AM

"Terrorist" is best used as an adjective to describe certain types of actions. Whoever carries them out. Hamas, like the IRA, is undoubtedly an organisation that has been responsible for many terrorist acts. The same is arguably true of the Israeli and British governments. That isn't saying the two sets of adversaries are identical, obciously they are not. That is what is meant by the current vogue expression "asymmetric warfare".

.............................

Israel's secular democracy is founded on the ethnic cleansing of the country to ensure a majority of one ethnic group. When South Africa attempted to introduce a versioin of this policy, with Bantustan homelands, this was rightly seen as a pretty severe distortion of the democratic system. If there had been no flight of refugees in 1948, or if they had been permitted to return home, in line with normal international law, there would be at present a balance between Arabs and Jews within the territory of Israel.

Given the realities of power at present, a solution involving an end to partition, and the establishment of one secular state within the historic boundaries of Palestine (or Eretz Israel), is evidently not practical politics. I think it would provide the best hope for the long term future for both Jews and Arabs in the area. There have always been some Israelis and many Palestinians who have wished this future for their country.

A two state settlement is probably the best available one - however if the process of destroying the viability of the Palestinian state continues, that option is likely to cease to be possible.

(That link I gave above to a piece by Dorit Rabinyan about her friend Hassan Hourani isn't working at present. It should be back - I think the paper has a technical problem with its website today.)

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM

Defining terrorists is a favoutite ploy of those who do not have to lie in a hole and hope and pray that those pilots sitting in the comfort of their state of the art killing machines fly on bye.
There bombs are massive and kill and maim thousands, they bombed the citizens of Iraq in the hope that they would conform to whatever government the USA would put in place, it seems that this has been all in vain as todays news from that sorrowful land is worse than ever.
The hornets nest the USA has unleashed on the world is now completely out of control, prepare yourselves for more acts of terroism from desperate people.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:04 PM

Another link to that piece by by Dorit Rabinyan about her friend Hassan Hourani I mentioned earlier. This should work a bit better, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: GUEST,Boab_d
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM

This one is simple.

Put all the Arabs and all the Isrealies into the red sea and then insert a rather large food processor.

turn it on


This would give you a middle east solution.

cheer up man{;'>

Dylan