You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:17 AM

>Why? Because those Yanks, so I've heard, just love the way we talk.

Absolutely. I've a sister in law from Portsmouth who was positively befuddled because I didn't know the HMS Victory, (but I always did like the way she handled a knife & fork). I mentioned once that on the internet you could always tell a septic because they seemed as dumb as a post, she held back the smile but giggled, 'septic', bless her heart (her first husband was a captain in the RN)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 07:56 AM

Tune: "So, whatever American accent Bruce has..."

You're down to arguing which one your irrelevant self likes more because he's less fake than the other one based on... "whatever."

PS:
Wiki for "New Jersey English" gives four (4) distinct dialects. One for the Big Man, a different one for Bruce, with two to spare.

Wiki for "York English" returns a language school in Fuzhou, Fujian, PRC.

Noice!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 08:18 AM

So what if Springsteen is adopting a "different" American accent? What's that got to do with anything?
Bruce ISN'T named in the - above mentioned -Top 100 greatest blues singers!
This is the question you should be asking:
Is B B King using a fake American accent? Or Aretha? Or Bobby Bland? Or Otis Rush and so on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM

Modette, you are falling into that well know trap of knowing where a singer come from, and then hearing the accent from that location.
Because Annie Lennox comes from Scotland, there are those who WILL hear a Scottish accent.
And, this repeated over and over. Take The Beatles! When their recording were first played in the States, NOBODY thought that they were British! Same goes for Adele!

But, from the word go, people in the UK were saying that The Beatles sang in a Liverpudlian.

It took an outside set of ears ...the Americans to see the huge difference between their speaking voices and the accents on their recordings.
Again, if you played any recordings Rory Gallagher, to somebody who doesn't know his music, each and every time, he would NEVER be identified as Irish.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:31 PM

Don't be daft. I had a good idea of Gallagher's roots from his voice before I knew where he came from.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

Really! I don't believe you've!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:43 PM

The Beatles were obviously northern English from the first "yeah, yeah, yeah". Difficult to pin it Liverpool but the glottal stop and intonation in many of songs, particularly the solo verses, make it pretty obvious that they were neither American nor from the south. If you cannot hear it I suggest a good ear syringing :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:57 PM

Dave, please, the Americans when The Beatles first recordings were played in the States assumed they were just another US group.
And , Peter Trudgill, one of the English speaking world's leading sociolinguists says that they were singing in an American accent.
And, finally, John Lennnon admitted that they sang in a US accent.

Now, who do think is correct? You, or all the above.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:11 PM

I had a proper job Scrumpyshire accent as a boy,
which was 'educated' out of me by my mum's aspirations, and grammar school..

I lived up north for a few years, in my late teens/early 20s..

Then I studied in Bristol and London until I was about 30...

By then, I was told by various colleagues I sounded like a Canadian or an Israeli... go figure...?????

The Beatle's singing accents, for whatever intentions, varied track by track, year by year...

depending on who was listening...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

I neglected to mention I spent all my years in London living in shared houses, and drinking with
Irish and Scots building workers..

I've been back in Scrumpyshire nearly 20 years, f@ck knows what my accent is now...!!!???

I guess I find out when I record myself singing the Blues...????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:47 PM

punkfolkrocker:
In a previous post, I mentioned leading sociolinguits Peter Trudgill , and - in the late 70s? - he devoted a chapter in one of his books to the subject of Brits singing pop/rock in an American accent.
Interestingly, and maybe not surprisingly, he discovered that the American accent influence on The Beatles weakened as the years moved on.
One thing he did draw attention to is the fact that sometimes The Beatles pronounced words in the way that they probably thought was American ( I don't think any of this was done consciously, btw ) but what came out was neither American nor Liverpudlian.
It has been said that people often adopt ( unconsciously) an accent that suits the material.
    For example, if somebody were to sing the old song "Any Old Iron", they might slip into a sort of Cockney accent because that is how they have heard the song performed.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

Tunesmith - Plus factor in the thousands of hours we have all been bombarded with yank accents
at the cinema and on the telly over the last 50 - 70 years...

Careful you dont catch yerself turning into an American...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:53 PM

I'm Irish, Tunesmith, so believe it! We know our accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:12 PM

Now, who do think is correct? You, or all the above

To be honest, tunesmith, it doesn't matter. I just listened to "Penny Lane" and it is blatantly obvious where the lads were from. If others could not see that then it is not my problem. As to what John Lennon said, well, he also insisted they were bigger than Jesus and he got their name from a man stood on a flaming pie.

Up to you whether you believe everything he said of whether you believe I can detect the North country accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:18 PM

Regarding Penny Lane ( and I know it well, the actual street and the song) See my post at 01.47

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:21 PM

In my provincial S West town I can hear local white teenagers talking to each other in hat

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:22 PM

Modette, I know he is from Ulster, but what do you make of Paul Brady's accent(s)?
It seems to me that he has a very, very strong Irish accent when singing his Irish material but his accent becomes a lot more American - with Dylan overtones - when he does his rock stuff.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:24 PM

try again..

In my provincial S West town I can hear local white teenagers talking to each other in that fashionable Jamaican/USA rap street gang patois...

Now do they switch it on and off when meeting their mates or their granny...

Or is that it for real now.. is that their authentic 21st Century British accent...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:32 PM

You may well know Penny Lane intimately (lucky girl?) Tunesmith but 65 years of living in the North of England lets me recognise a northern accent when I hear one. And the Beatles had one. But you have still not given us examples of Plant and Marriot's American accents. Or why they were nothing but actors.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:36 PM

punkfolkrocker:
Now, that triggers a memory. Way back when, on some talent show, famous producer/writer Pete Waterman was one othe judge, and this young British chap comes out and performs a song in a West Indian type accent.
Pete went ballistic and asked the contestant what he was thinking about singing in such an accent.
Now, there are three things here.
a) Nearly every other performer sang in an American accent and Pete didn't say a word
b) West Indian accents are a definite part of UK culture/society.
c) West Indian accents have been used, successfully, by UK artists such as Sting and UB40.
What do you make of that?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:36 PM

Actually to be fair - Mariott was an actor...

A child actor playing cheeky cockney roles...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:39 PM

Look Dave, there have been millions of words written about "the Brits singing American phenomena". Don't you realise that?
And, if I were to choose your ears, or the ears of Peter Trudgill, I'm going with Trudgill!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:44 PM

Tunesmith - I obviously distinguish between indiginous Brits slipping into Jamaican accents
because it's inherrent in their local neighbourhood and family identity development...

It's authetically assimilated and absorbed into their being...

And prats like my mate back in our late 1970s college band
who would affect dreadfull fake 'rastaman' voices to sing the few popular ska songs in our set...

Our band emerged from youth theatre.. nobody minded about that sort of thing back then...

Sir Alec Guiness was still 'browning up' playing Indians in big budget movies...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:05 PM

Here's another thought.
When Cilla Black started recording with George Martin, he was forever pulling her up over her scouse accent, and telling her to get rid of the scouse sounds.
Now, he never did that with The Beatles.
Why? Because they didn't have those unpleasant- to George Martin's ears - scouse sounds in their voices when they sang.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:54 PM

If you listen to very early Beatles, for instance "Love Me Do", they most definitely come from Liverpool. Within a few records it was much less clear, and there was indeed an americanness about them but the time of, say, "I wanna hold your hand". Why? I think because they had realised that they really were going tobe able to sell a lot of records, and they could work out that the record buying public in America was much larger than in Liverpool, or indeed the whole of the UK.   

Now putting on a West Indian accent, that had rather different overtones. People of West Indian origin have suffered appalling racism in the UK, and therefore I think that Pete Waterman (whom I have very little time for on any subject, especially railways), was right to pull the contestant up. Maybe he should have pulled Sting up too, but thats another issue.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

First of all. I was there. In Liverpool in the early 60s, and we used to pride ourselves on how American we could sound!
Now, I've heard "so called " experts suggesting that The Beatles "experimented" with using American accents. That is nonsense!
The Beatles simply opened their mouths and out it came. They would never have consciously tried to sing in American accents...that's just the way it came out.
   And, they would have never have considered singing in an English accent. It just wouldn't have occured to them. They were singing American covers, I think almost totally, until Epstein and talk of recording contracts came along.
Of course, in certain number...like McCartney's Little Richard numbers - we have a vocalist consciously trying to sound as American as possible!

Listen to that scouse accent...not!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 03:37 AM

I specifically said I could not spot a Scouse accent with the Beatles but it was obviously northern English. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

There are two examples that spring to mind of people obviously singing in their own accents. The Proclaimers and Kate Rusby. With most of the rest it is not so obvious but if you listen to how words are pronounced or inflected you can often discern an accent. Mostly I cannot tell what it is but when it is one I recognise, such as the North of England, it becomes even more apparent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 03:44 AM

...And I still have not found any examples of Plant or Marriot singing in an American accent (with the exception of afore said Raising Sand) or putting themselves forward as blues singers. I think you have a genuine complaint but it should not be with the singers but with the readership of the magazine.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 08:34 AM

I give up! I've already posted one Steve marrioyy vid ( 03 Oct 18 03.25) and he is clearly not singing in any sort of UK accent; indeed, he throws in one of those " you know what I'm talkin' about" blues clich comments. AND, he's pure US even when he's speaking!
Dave, why should Steve and Robert be different than nearly every other UK blues'rock artist who sang in an America accent?
Well, they weren't!

I don't know why you mentioned Kate Rusby because, surely, no British singer who specialises in UK/Irish folk music uses an American accent.

And quoting The Proclaimers is surely shooting yourselve in the foot because EVERYBODY mentions their Scottish singing voices but nobody mentions the Scottish accents of ANY Scottish pop/rock artist.
Go back and listen to Lulu from the 60s belting out "Shout" in her great Scottish accent...not!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 01:46 PM

Dave the Gnome,
   I just may have to apologise, somewhat, here!
I’ve spent some time today listening to Robert’s output and he is not too heavy at all on the American accent thing.
   One early performance interested me. When he sings “Babe I’m gonna leave you” he can’t help sounding American because of the “gonnas and the wannas” etc.
That raises a couple of language issues. I remember years ago, Cliff Richard was pulled up by some pop reporter for singing “Do you wanna dance” with the “wanna”, which Cliff wouldn’t usually say, and by pronouncing “dance” in an American way. ( Cliff’s is from the south of England where “dance” is pronounced “darnce”)
   Btw, Cliff defended his use of American pronunciations, saying that it scanned better.
   Interestingly, when Pat Boone, notoriously, covered Fats Domino’s “Ain’t That a Shame”, he, Pat, said he couldn’t sing “ain’t as, being an English major, he considered it bad English. He eventually changed his mind because he thought “ain’t" scanned better than “ isn’t " but I think he was wrong. I think “isn’t” allows more opportunity for shaping the sound.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 05:24 PM

innit a shame.. innit bruv...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 05:41 PM

Thank you, Tunesmith. Now, how about who your real gripe is with? Are you annoyed by someone singing in an American accent or by a readership of a minority magazine who think that Robert Plant is better than blind Willy Whasisname?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pete the american with a german great grandf
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 06:01 PM

Wow, isnt it cool how people’s voices and characters take from those they admire. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, yes? Honor those that came before you and be creative with what you have learned.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 06:55 PM

Lulu was seemingly pressurised by management, record lable etc to lose her Scottish accent even when speaking. As for The Proclaimers they of course specifically chose to sing in their speaking accents and were at first ridiculed a bit for it. Their first appearance on The Tube even had the presenter Paula Yates say "this is really weird"

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:55 PM

People's accents are shaped by where they live, they are not fixed in childhood. So of course Steve Marriott would have sounded a bit American.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:09 PM

Just listened to some Humble Pie on youtube, "For Your Love" for instance. It doesn't seem to be that Marriott on this was putting on any accent at all. Marriott was a great rock singer, blues is a bit more specific and a bit more American so I wouldn't call him a blues singer. But I don't detect anything false. Plant is a different case, he seems to be assuming the persona he thinks his audience would like. He is quite good at that, hence Raising Sand for instance.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 04:20 PM

It might seem surprising but Brits singing in American accents doesn’t really register with general population anymore.
    It’s not surprising though. The American accent has been the default accent for the majority of successful UK pop/rock singers since the 50s ( Did Billy Fury sound like he came from Liverpool?). Indeed, a New Zealand lingusitics professor put it another way. He said that an American accent is the “lingua franca” of international rock/pop sung in English.
Interestingly, we’ve never had a Australian/New Zealand pop/rock star who sounded like they came part of the world ( Apart from Uncle Rolf?)
    Take country music superstar Keith Urban. Just from listening to him, you would never know that he is from Australia.
    And, in the UK, so many pop/rock singers have got very strong regional accents when they speak, but that all goes away when they sing. Indeed, when Brit rock/pop is ocassionally sung with a distinct regional accent ( think The Proclaimers) in draws attention to itself in a big way. And, even seems “strange and bizarre” to some listeners.
   I never went in for much of the output from the Punk area, but at least many of the bands from back then did strive for an English vocal sound.
   BTW, the article by sociolinguist expert Peter Trudgill - that I mentioned in a previous post -is definitely worth looking up. Back in the mid/late 70s, he analysed a number of Brtish rock singers as to how much of their singing accent was American.
   Ian Drury came out as the most British of all the singers he studied.
    Of course, some singers do just a great impersonation, that it seems mean to complain. For example, I remember Stevie Winwood - at 15 - bursting on the scene singing like a teenage Ray Charles. In one way it was impressive but one could ask, “ If you want to express yourself, do it with your own voice and not somebody elses”.
    Interestingly, I would say that all the really great rock/blues/soul/jazz/country etc singers do sing with a voice that sounds like a musical extension of their day-to-day speaking voices.
      I’ll return to the 100 Greatest Blues Singers list shortly but, for now, think about this.
Do any of UKs rock and blues guitar stars play with a distinct British “accent”? Or, if your like, when they play, do they sound different, in a British sort of way, from great US rock guitarists?.
    For example, it has been said, in the rock press, that Dave Gilmour has a Celtic feel to his playing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 04:25 PM

Not at all sure about that. How can a guitar have an accent?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:16 AM

Kylie certainly sounds Australian. Even though she has lived in Britain for a fair part of her life. Jimmy Barnes and Bon Scott sounded Scottish because they were. I am trying to think of Australian singers who sound American, John Farnham maybe?

Billy Fury didn't sound American. He didn't sound scouse, but then he wasn't really. His voice I would say is English, but without any particular regional imprint.

As for Ian Dury, I know of no British people who sound like his performance voice. He sounded like a music hall parody of a Londoner, because thats what he was trying to be.

Keith Urban is singing an American musical form. Also according to Wikipedia he has been living in America since 1991. Of course he will sound American.

I think that you have a strange view of the way people speak Tunesmith.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:31 AM

I had a listen to David Gilmour's 'Rattle that lock' after I posted last night to see if I could find any 'Celticness' in his guitar style. I couldn't. I think you are paying far too much heed to what the "rock press" are saying Tunesmith. Guitarists do have their own style but I think it is associated with them rather a nationality.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:07 AM

Oh dear, Dave!
There is not the slightest trace of Liverpool in Fury's voice and not the slightest trace of Australian in Kylie's voice.
Again, if their recordings were played on US radio, no American listeners would assume that they were anything but American.

Keith Urban? For God's sake, he sounded American BEFORE he left Australia.

Indeed, I've just been listening to most of the top Australian rock bands over the years, and I can't hear a trace of an Australian accent in any of their performances!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:16 AM

Don't get your Daves and Davids mixed up Tunesmith :-)

I think David actually said that Billy Fury did not sound scouse and I would concur with him that he did not sound American either. Well, not on 'Halfway to Paradise' which I have just listened to anyway.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:32 AM

Well, there is no such thing as "no accent"! So what accent is Billy singing in?
Well, is he trying to sing in a "posh" English accent? No!
But, if you listen to the original American recording by Tony Orlando you can pick up lots of places were Billy - in his cover version -is virtually copying Tony's pronunciation.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:52 AM

So what accent is Billy singing in?

Dunno. But it is neither Scouse not American. Maybe Mid-Atlantic in parts. Other bits have an English intonation. The words 'Gonna' and 'Wanna' are always going to sound American regardless of your accent. What does it matter anyway?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobike
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:11 AM

"Well, there is no such thing as "no accent"!"

But for the sake of clarity of pronunciation and communication,
It has long time been conventional for folks to tame the more problematic characteristics of their broad regional accents,
and adopt a 'neutral' accent...

An accent with emphasis placed on making words more easily understood across all regions...

The transatlantic accent being one common useful variant...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

More flat out impersonations that adopted accents but what about Tom Waits as Louis Armstrong or Capt. Beefheart (and many others) as Howlin' Wolf.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile..not mobike
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:29 AM

A modern day equivalent i his Google Voice detection and spell chef making us all communicate like incoherent idiots dot dot dot

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:29 AM

Well, we're all agreed then, Billy was expressing himself, like so many Brits, in an accent that was far removed from his own.
But, this is not true of all (?) the great American singers.
Again, when you listen to Johnny Cash you are indeed hearing Johnny Cash.
But, when you hear Elton John you are hearing a voice " borrowed" from Jose Feliciano AND Jose had, himself, based his voice on American soul signings ( back in the 60s Jose spoke with a distinct Pueto Rican accent.)
This is the reason why I cam't accept many Uk singers as the Real Deal".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:39 AM

ID suggest predictive text is more of a force for evil than pop singers convinced it's cooler to sound American than whatever little British shithole they were born and bred in...????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:40 AM

Johnny Cash is a country singer. US country = UK Folk. When you hear Martin Carthy you are indeed hearing Martin Carthy.

How do you know that all the great American singers are singing in their own accents? US accents vary considerably. I have no idea what American accent most Americans sing in.