You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

How do you know what Billy Fury's accent was Tunesmith? Its not as if everyone in Liverpool sounds as if they come straight out of the Liver Birds. And I think he lived in Wirral more than in Liverpool. The Beatles sounded more scouse in early interviews, but I think thats because they wanted people to think of them as working class. In that sense I think Billy Fury was more real than Lennon and McCartney.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr still on mobile
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:58 AM

Right back to typing manually on tiny screen and keypad - sod voice dictation...

If we consider our pop stars from circa 60 years ago,
I would presume working class teenage singers eager to get on in life and escape their dreary provincial background would have mostly sold their souls to big London record labels and knuckled down to the star making process of an imposed new image make over...

Swapping their birth names for new cool manufactured pop star identities,
Hair and fashion styling,
and quite likely submitting to some form of election training.. ???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:08 AM

prf said:
   "ID suggest predictive text is more of a force for evil than pop singers convinced it's cooler to sound American than whatever little British shithole they were born and bred in...????"

Interestingly, lots of US singers think they also came from "shitholes". For example, Jerry lee Lewis is always badmouthing Ferriday, Lousiana.


It's only the Bris that think it is uncool to come from Birmingham, or where ever; indeed, even after The Beatles made Liverpool "cool" to the Americans, lots of Brits - including Mick Jagger, were saying that Liverpool was a dreadful place.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM

bastard predictive text "elocution" training...

Tunesmith - by this stage in the thread your list of contradictions and anomilies,
is just serving to demonstrate how complex and worthy of sociological study,
this whole issue of little island Brit popstar identity is...

..and let's not forget how impressed British kids were by GIs stationed here during the war..

To them everything the yanks had and did was glamoorous and way cooler than wartime rationing and austerity...

They were definitely cool role models to our kids who later went on to forge showbiz careers...

with dreams of themselves making it big enough to even become stars in America...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:32 AM

dave the Gnome said:
"When you hear Martin Carthy you are indeed hearing Martin Carthy"

I'm not so sure about that! If Martin hadn't discovered folk music, I bet he would sound very different when singing.

And, isn't it generally understood, that Martin "created" his voice by listening to old field recordings of actual folk singers?

And, of course, Nic Jones borrowing heavily from Martin when he "created" his voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:46 AM

You are just playing 'what if' now Tunesmith.

If Johnny Cash hadn't discovered country music, I bet he would sound very different when singing. :-)

Let's take this right down to what your gripe is here though. Is it that you disagree with the readership vote of the magazine you quoted in the OP? If so, point taken. I would agree with you on that. Neither Plant nor Marriot are, in my opinion, blues singers.

Or is it that you dislike any singers who so not sing in their 'own' accents? In which case you need to stop listening to them!

Or do you just not like British singers in general. In which case you have plenty of others that you can go at from across the pond and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:58 AM

Martin Carthy - this voice? MC singing

I may be alone in this but I don't think there is a voice I more dislike than the bizarre stilted accent that Martin Carthy employs. I just find it weird. Don't think I have ever met anyone in England who speaks like that. Actually Martin Carthy doesn't speak like that either. He just sings in that rather weird accent. Very odd.

Not American though.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:10 AM

Boris Johnson, half of Manchester, and about 10% of Surrey people who are Manchester United supporters, are still saying Liverpool is a dreadful place. And indeed it did go through a hard time in the 1980s. Not now though, it is a vibrant cosmopolitan city. When I walk through the streets of Liverpool I hear any number of accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:14 AM

Well, the difference bwtween Johnny's voice and Martin's is that Johnny was surrounded from birth by singess, in church, on the radio, at shows etc singing in, basically, a rural American accent.
On the otherhand, Martin Carthy did not grow up listening to "real" English folk singers. No, as an adult, he had to go searching for recordings of Joseph Taylor etc. as an inspiration for his " folkie" voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:17 AM

I've been a 'fan' of both The Small Faces and Billy Fury since I was a teenager bored with prog rock,
and needing something more immediate, emotional, and exciting...

They are just 2 of the many crucial 1960s artists that caught the attention of 'my generation'
of early to mid 1970s proto punk rockers...

I've just listened to a random sample of Humble Pie - alright, but not as good as the Small Faces;
and it's obvious Mariott is mimicing Soul and R&B histrionics...

He wouldn't have been the only singer in Europe doing that at that point in history...



Tunesmith - WE have already established we all think that Blues Greats list is naffly suspicious...

If anything, Mariott would be a more realistic contender for a similar Soul greats list,
then you could moan instead about him being included in that...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:38 AM

Now, here comes the paradox!

It's probably more "natural" for Brits to sing in a sort of American accent than in their own regional accent, particularly if they have immersed themselves for years in American music, but, unfortunately, it does make a lot of Brits - to my ears - sound "fake" when compared to our US music heroes.

BTW, I have another paradox - relating to my previous sentence -coming up shortly ( I think you'll find it thought provoking)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:55 AM

Tunesmith, many of do not use "our own regional accent", and maybe don't even know what it is. We use or at least attempt to use Received Pronunciation, known disparagingly as BBC English. Sources say that it accent of Southern England, but certainly not all of Southern England. My grandfather was from Somerset and he didn't speak like that, and as discussed above Ian Dury didn't speak or sing like that. Now it may be wrong, it may even be discrimination, but we have found that speaking like helps one to get on in life.

Now the BBC, tarred with the brush of enforcing uniformity, have gone completely the other way, and there are many presenters now on mainstream shows who speak in affected and pretty unintelligible regional accents. North East, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Wales, Scotland. They lay it on thick and I bet they don't speak like that when the cameras are off them.

The rest of us don't speak like that. It isn't American influence, it is in part the BBC, but we don't and why should we?

Billy Fury sang in a perfectly natural, very intelligible, neutral British accent. Good for him.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:03 AM

I'll tell you what I think is really shite and far more pernicious and patronising...

Upper middle class public school educated writers and actors
producing and performing scripts depicting working class stereotypes,
whatever regional accent they are in effect making a mockery of...

I loathe Radio 4 drama productions...!!!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:08 AM

..sorry.. got distracted from what I actually intended to write...

I've just been listening to a sample of Steve Marriot's solo work with his All Stars band...

What I do find amusing is not the accent,
but that through pokey little Echo Dot speakers in the bathroom and kitchen,
how much he sounds like a female singer...!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:59 AM

Saw Stevie Marriot and Humble Pie at the Glasgow Appollo back in the day. He even gobbed like an American.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:16 PM

I saw HP's first gig in America back in maybe '71-72. Couldn't discern any accents during the songs due to the tidal waves of sound coming from those Marshall stacks, PA's in those days were pretty scratchy (except, for one, the Dead's "Wall of Sound"). I do remember the bluesy, hendrixy, jazzy guitar playing of Frampton, though I was never a fan of his solo stuff.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:52 PM

Why am I sticking with this thread...???

Well... the search for 'our' pop stars singing in their own home accent...

it's just inspired me to listen to and enjoy Gerry amd The Pacemakers for the first time in 30 odd years
since I last ot their greatest hits LP out of storage..

next lined up - Freddie and the Dreamers...



Bloody handy, this online streaming in the bog...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:02 PM

I'm getting more and more confused, Tunesmith. Is JC's singing voice as it is because he came across country music or because he was surrounded by singers? I am losing track of what you are trying to tell us. I will say that my example was probably a bad one. How about I substitute Martin Carthy with Vin Garbutt or Jez Lowe or Jon Boden or... Well, you get the idea.

I must also say that my comments about Steve Marriot stem only for his time with the Small Faces. I did not follow his career after that.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:09 PM

Johnny Cash came from rural Arkansas in America. His dad was a farm worker. Johnny sings like somebody was who comes from a rural part of America.
He doesn't sing - or sound - like a lawyer from Boston!
I hope that has helped clarify things!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:11 PM

Now, here’s the mother of paradoxes on this subject.
Imagine, you are listening to the radio and a blues track comes on, and you are immediately held by the terrific singing. It almost sounds like a cross between B. B. King and Bobby Bland on their best day. You think to yourself, “ That’s got to be one of the greatest blues voices ever”.
    The track ends, and the DJ says, “ That’s a track off an album by a new band from Scotland, and, listen to this! The lead singer is only 19 yrs old and comes from Glasgow”.   
    “Scotland?”, you say to yourself, “ And, only 19! I’d would have swore that the singer was black, and from the States”.
    Now, knowing that the singer is from Scotland, and singing in an American accent, would you still rate the vocalist as, “one of the greatest blues voices ever”? Or simply dismiss the effort as being like the equivalent of a superior tribute band.
    In other words, can we make a true value judgement on any piece of art ( music, painting, literature ) without having all the information to hand about how - and by whom - the thing was created?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:18 PM

I don't know if tunesmith has completely formulated his thesis yet,
but it is too simplistic and unrealistic
to expect singers to pin their 'voice' and identity
to a single fixed place and moment in time...

Everybody evolves and changes throughout life, and their varying circumstances...

Except for a minority of regionalistic/nationalist singers who are so stubbornly proud of their specific birth roots,
that they will cling doggedly to their set regional identity until even after they drop dead...

..and yes, there is a commmercial market they can aim at making a living from...

ahem.. "Wurzels"... [but... yes.. that's right even a Scot can be a succsessful profesional Wurzel..]

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:18 PM

So what was the name of this 19 year old singer?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM

Tunesmith. If you liked the song, WTF does it matter where the singer is from, how old they are or what colour underpants they are wearing? No paradox at all. Like it or don't. Seemples.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM

Tom Jones... one of the World's finest voices ever..

and by most folks standards even one of the most authentic 'Black' voices...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:31 PM

punkfolkrocke said:
"Everybody evolves and changes throughout life, and their varying circumstances..."

Yes, from Beethoven to Dylan that is true, and, guess what, a million words have been written on the "evolving artist".

Where could we start? Dylan? Moved from doing covers of trad songs, to singing simply protest songs, to writing complex songs filled with so-called poetry" and so on...
But what's that to do with the price of fish in Fleetwood?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:36 PM

I might record myself singing the Blues and discover I now have a distinct Welsh accent...???

36 years have hearing the wife's sweet valleys tones nagging incessantly into my ear'oles, brain, and psyche...??????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

I'd guess the 19yr old singer was this guy - Worried Man https://g.co/kgs/7589XB

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Brakn
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:54 PM

Comical.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:11 PM

As has already been stated in this thread many times, this is all just a matter of personal preference and nothing more.
Example: I much prefer Pierre Bensusan's version of the Irish song "The Town I Loved So Well" with his French/Algerian accent to the Dubliner's, others may not, big whoop.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:16 PM

gillymor,
But, wouldn't it have been better, if Pierre had used a phoney Irish accent?
For the record, I'm being ironic here!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:18 PM

I really like Petula Clarke singing "Ya Ya" in French...

Wouldn't life be so strict & boring if after Brexit
I was forced by overly proud Nationalist Govt
to relearn how to talk in my boyhood Scrumpyshire accent,
and was only allowed to listen to English artists resricted to singing in their own regional accents of birth...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:15 PM

I had no idea the British were so insecure

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:30 AM

Oh, I don't feel the slightest bit insecure, nor do any of the musicians I play with, as far as one can tell.

Tunesmith seems to have a massive bee buzzing around in his bonnet about a bit of nonsense in a magazine.

I don't give a toss about accents, to be honest. If I hear something that appeals to me, that's all that matters. For example, much as I love Richard Thompson, I prefer "When The Spell Is Broken" performed by Bonnie Raitt and the Blind Boys of Alabama to the original. So there.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:10 AM

Will, I don't see your point. Surely, anyone with ears would prefer to hear Bonnie sing a song rather than Richard.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:17 AM

Errr. no Tunesmith. Bonnie Tyler, then you might be talking.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:25 AM

Now, you're trying to wind me up!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM

Richard Thompson does the best version of Vincent Black Lightning 1952. It is not always about quality of voice but about how the song is performed. If it was always about quality of voice Bob Dylan would be a pauper :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:12 AM

Ah, but you haven't heard Bonnie sing it! Have you!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:39 AM

I would if I could but I can't so I shan't :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:59 AM

Once again, Tunesmith, it's all a question of personal taste. I really like Richard Thompson's songs, and his voice - both of which I think are unique. Not to mention his guitar playing. I'm aware that many people don't care for Richard's voice, but I always have done. I've seen him live on several occasions and have always come away with huge enjoyment.

Having said that, I do prefer Bonnie Raitt's version of that particular song, and I quite like REM's version of "Wall Of Death", thought not quite as much as RTs.

Each to his/her own.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:12 AM

Again, I hear Richard as somebody who "created" his voice. I think he probably didn't have much confidence in his voice in Fairports what with Sandy and the very competent Ian Matthews being in the group.
But, I love Richard. He's such a brilliant and entertaining songwriter...and a cool chap, to boot.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:37 AM

And once again I ask. If you like him as a "brilliant and entertaining songwriter...and a cool chap, to boot", what does it matter how he came across his voice? Over analysing can ruin the enjoyment.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:28 AM

It's nothing to do with analysis ( well, certainly not on a conscious level) but rather a gut reaction!
If I had said that I found his lyrics pretentious - which, I don't - would that be as the result of "over analysing" or, again, just a gut reaction to what I hear.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:41 AM

Only if you said you liked them and then said you found them pretentious. I am a simple little soul. I either like something or I don't. If I do like it, I do not feel the need to have a 'but' there. If I don't like it, I am not one to try and justify that. There are occasions when I change my mind and that is often the result of listening or looking from a different point of view but there is far too much music in the world and far too little time to ponder on why I like something or not. :-)

BTW - I like a lot of Glam Rock and find many Prog Rock songs pretentious. I am probably shallow as well as short :-D

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:07 PM

Yes Tunesmith, of course I am, but then I think that some of your statements are designed to wind people up also.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:00 PM

Well, I think there are songs for all occasions. For example, "The Monkees" singing "Daydream Believer" always makes me smile, and, interestingly, the Davy Jones vocal does, most definitely, sound English.
Well done to him, but there again he is/was an actor, and he is, in the TV series acting out the role of a English pop singer.

BTW, below is a link to a Youtube video where John Stewart talks about the creation of the song and "the one word change" to the lyric that The Monkees insisted upon.

Daydream Believer John Stewart

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

Welll.. the 1960s British Invasion...


How many yank singers suddenly discovered their inner scouser...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:58 PM

Yes, of course, I have heard that there are a number of US bands who have adopted an English accent. Names?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:13 PM

So people are singing in different accents from the ones that they were born with, are they? I'm not sure that this would have met with the approval of Ewan M......

.... On second thoughts, I have decided not to go down that particular road!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:50 PM

Davy Jones was English. He was from Manchester. Should he have sung in a Manchester accent? What is such an accent anyway? One you hear on Coronation Street? Davy Jones did in fact begin his career in Coronation Street.