BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews

Subject: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:13 PM

Obama's got my vote. Everything he's says about Zionism, the need for a Palestinian state, the relationship of America and Israel, etc. is right on the money.

An interview with Barack Obama from Atlantic.com about Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:52 PM

Interesting article; thanks.

Nice pseudonym, by the way, and welcome to Mudcat.

I see that this is your first day, and your first six postings are all about Israel. All well and good, but I hope in the near future you'll share some of your ideas about music, too!

;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:57 PM

Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:57 PM

"Right on the money" until Fantz-the-Proclaimer (FtP) shows up and declares it all wrong... lol...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:58 PM

"Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg."

Thought you had more class than that, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:13 PM

I think Obama realized that not everyone who would read Mr. Goldberg's interview would necessarily have a Jewish name.

I'm Irish-Catholic by ethnicity but was still favorably impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:26 PM

"Maybe Obama, being a politician, noticed the name of the guy doing the interview was Goldberg."

Your comment is offensive.

BTW, the interview with Obama was for Atlantic, hardly a Jewish publication, even if they do have Jews working there.

Of course, jumping to conclusions about someone's race, religion or ethnicity based solely on their name is stereotypically racist behavior. For example, I've known people named "Shapiro" who were not Jewish and people named "MacDonald" who were.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:33 PM

"Thought you had more class than that, Rig."


                           No

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:40 PM

I'll know better for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:49 PM

"I see that this is your first day, and your first six postings are all about Israel. All well and good, but I hope in the near future you'll share some of your ideas about music, too!"

I've been lurking at Mudcat for a long time and felt compelled to jump in because of the perceived anti-Semitism in the bash-Israel thread. Not that I've started posting, I'm sure I'll open my mouth in music threads when I've got something to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:52 PM

So how many of these threads are going to get posted on this topic?
We now have two threads related to Israel and the Middle East closed because of personal attacks or glib comments. I got a little hot headed a week or so ago about something-I took a break. I would suggest all of you on this thread and the other threads to take Joe's advice and step back. Go up to the music threads, start a thread on something else, or log off for today! Better yet, have a pint, or a snifter of something else, Cheers, irishenglish(robert)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:56 PM

Excuse me. That is not so. ONE of the threads was closed because of people getting at each other. The one I started was closed as a preventative measure by Joe. Read what he wrote at the bottom of the thread. Problem here, very often, is people getting their facts straight, something you just demonstrated. Have a good day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:57 PM

PS I become unruly when I drink. That's why I don't and haven't for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 08 - 02:58 PM

"Your comment is offensive."


                     Well, it certainly wasn't meant to be offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:23 PM

irishenglish, I owe you an apology. I am sorry for my remark. It was uncalled for. After re-reading what you wrote I realize I was wrong to react in that manner, especially when what you wrote is so darned right. To compound my screw up, I think back to so many of your posts which have always been witty, insightful and considerate of others. I should have known better. Please excuse me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:31 PM

Peace, no worries, I just wanted to make sure we were cool! Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:41 PM

"So how many of these threads are going to get posted on this topic?"

So far as I know, this is the first thread about what Barack Obama has to say about one of the most important issues of our time. Obama may well be, will hopefully be, the next preident. So what he has to say is important.

It has nothing to do with the "Israel's Next War" thread. It seems to me that thread was nothing but an attempt to foster hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:22 PM

The linked article is clear, and Obama speaks rationally and reasonably. It's one of the reasons I like him. He doesn't flinch from saying what he sees, but he doesn't "act out" his point of view either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It wasn't hate mongering, Bruce. He posted a link to a PBS documentary that you just happen to not like. And while doing so he criticized the more fundamentalist factions of his own religion just as much as he did the more extremist factions of the Jewish religion. When you spread lies like those, it is you who are spreading hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:26 PM

The fact that the person carrying out the interview was called Goldberg, or may have been Jewish is of course irrelevant - interviews are public property, and politicians know trying to tailor your policies to the personal preferences of the interviewer is pointless.

Inevitably anyone running for President has to deal with questions about Israel in the recognition that there are a lot of votes to be lost by failing to come across as strongly pro-Israel or even as showing any overt sympathy towards the situation of the Palestinians. After all, even aside from people with other reasons for feeling solidarity with Israel, America shares with Israel the situation of being a country built by settlers replacing and displacing the people who lived there before them.

There is an inconsistency between talking about the necessitty for America to be willing to talk with people seen as enemies, when it comes to Iran and others - but so far as Hamas is concerened "we should not be dealing with them until they recognize Israel, renounce terrorism, and abide by previous agreements". (There'd still be a war in Northern Ireland if the British had stuck to that approach.) And of course there are his comments on the last war against Lebanon in terms of it being defensive and justified, and on the illegal settlements - "Settlements at this juncture are not helpful."

Nothing to be surprised in this. He's an American politcian, and he operates within the constraints of American politics, and probably sincerely enough means what he says. The hope has to be that, in office (if he makes it), in the same way and probably to much the same extent as either of his electoral rivals would, he'll be ready to use his position to try to get some kind of movement away from the present nightmare that overshadows the Holy Land.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:02 PM

Exactly---irrelevent. Just like whether or not Sol is or is not a Rabbi on the other thread.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:02 PM

Ok, so after a brief detour (!), good article. What impressed me is that as he alluded to in the article, Obama has clearly thought about this before. I think a lot of time we tend to think of politicians as being given buzzword info from their advisors on a given topic in order to cover all bases (like if a debate is happening in Milwaukee, Obama or Clinton's advisors will give them a issue very specific to the Milwaukee area, so all the people can say, "Oh, they know all about our situation up here, they will get my vote".). What is clear is that Obama has questioned, and debated this,and as Amos said-he speaks rationally and reasonably.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:20 PM

"Exactly---irrelevent. Just like whether or not Sol is or is not a Rabbi on the other thread."

(I guess I'd have to say I agree with that.)

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:38 PM

If you have any questions about Sol's user name, please discuss it with him privately.
This thread is about Barack Obama, Jews, and so-called "Zionism."
Is that clear, Heric?
Thank you.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:54 PM

Agreed! I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:01 PM

I've already said thanks to Joe Offer in a personal message. I'll do it here publicly. I hope the discussion of Barack Obama's position can continue without personal attacks.

Given his views, I think Obama may be the best hope, for the Israelis and for the Palestinians, for leading the way to peace and prosperity for both sides. If he's elected, he'll need to engage the issue right from the start of his presidency and not do too little too late like the lamentable Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:22 PM

If Barak Obama really wanted to court the Jewish vote successfully he would come out strongly in support of releasing Jonathan Pollard on strictly humanitarian grounds. This man has already paid for his crime ten times over and has spent more time behind bars that other people who have spied for the Soviet Union and other powers who were hostile to the United States.

Clinton will not free him and neither will McCain upon advice of his potential running mate, Lieberman. There is nothing to be gained by keeping this man locked up for life in solitary confinement. He is no longer a threat to American interests.

                                                         SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:30 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

I don't think Jonathan Pollard is an issue for too many people in the Jewish community. He's more of an embarrassment than anything else. Not even the Israeli governmnet has lobbied on his behalf.

If we presume Obama will be the Democratic candidadte, that McCain will be the Republican candidate and that they both will do the same thing about Pollard (i.e. nithing), then there is probably not one voter in the entire country who will decide how to cast his/her ballot based on the Pollard (non)issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:40 PM

Frankly, I think the US would be better served if it would distance itself from Israel a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:50 PM

Well, now that the dst has cleared, I tookthe time to read the Obama interview in theatlantic.com. Seems to me, Obama thinks almost exactly what I think about the issue of Israel. I, too was shaped by the writings of Leon Uris and Philip Roth and liberal theologians, and I have a profound respect for the ideals of Zionism and a homeland for Jews who have faced more than two millenia of pogroms and ghettos and "final solutions." I'm glad that Obama used "Zionism" in its original, idealistic meaning, and did not sell out to the propagandists who have tried to redefine the word as some sort of oppressive Jewish imperialism.

We had a Jewish Israeli tour guide when I went to Israel on a Catholic pilgrimage in 1999, but one of my friends on the trip is married to a Palestinian from East Jerusalem - so we got both perspectives. Our tour guide was very cultured and intelligent and gentle, but I was distressed to hear her refer to Palestinians as if they were welfare cheaters, scummy people who wanted something for nothing. We met a number of hard-working, peaceable Palestinians who didn't fit our tour guide's description at all - and we didn't meet any Palestinians who DID fit her perspective. We also met Israeli citizen Arabs and Jews who were almost totally apolitical, just interested in doing their jobs and raising their families and enjoying life. There ARE Arabs who seem to be quite content to live in Israel as Israeli citizens. It seems a shame that Palestinians and Jews cannot peacefully exist in one, united country - but if the residents of the "occupied territories" were given full citizenship, the Jews would once again be a minority and their existence would once again be threatened.

There are no easy answers to the question of Israel, and I'm very glad that Barack Obama recognizes this and seems to have a balanced view of all sides of the issue. I still haven't dropped my allegiance to Hillary, but I have to say that this interview gave me a very favorable impression of Barack Obama.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:51 PM

In 1972, Republican president Richard Nixon got about 40% of the Jewish vote. I believe that is the best they have done.

In 2000 they got over 10% but not by much.

If Obama is the Democratic Party nominee, the Republicans will get the majority of Jewish voters for the first time ever, and some of them will be very liberal people.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:58 PM

I disagree with some of what Obama is saying in that link. This is one of the reasons I had initially decided to not vote for him. But I have more recently come to think that of the three candidates, he is the least likely to practice racism towards Palestinians.

However, I disagree with what he has said about Jimmy Carter's characterization of the situation in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem as apartheid. I think what Jimmy Carter said is right on the money, and I think that if Obama were to look deeply within himself, he would see this also, and perhaps already does, but is afraid to say.

I think the bigger question is whether or not Obama could get elected if he didn't didn't say what is expected of political candidates in this regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: GUEST,Q as guest
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:00 PM

Speeches by Obama or any of the candidates will do little to ameliorate conditions in Palestine. There is little chance of change in direction in the next four years.

Can Israel be persuaded to remove illegal settlements from the west bank?
Will refugees ever be compensated for lands taken from them?
Will the refugees crammed into camps ever be able to live a life without handouts from the UN and help organizations?

American intervention has contributed to the problems, which, given the attitude of the West towards Muslim culture and aspirations, will not be solved by this or the next generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:05 PM

Polling data shows the great majority of Jews will vote for Obama over MacCain.

POLL: OBAMA LEADS MCCAIN AMONG JEWISH VOTERS

A new Gallup poll shows Jewish voters prefer Senator Obama to Senator McCain in the presidential race, 61% to 32%. Senator Clinton did only a bit better than her colleague from Illinois, leading Mr. McCain, 66% to 27%. The results suggested news coverage about Mr. Obama's ex-pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright Jr., who has been critical of Israel and friendly toward Louis Farrakhan, took little toll on Mr. Obama's standing with Jews. The poll was based on Jewish voters who took part in Gallup tracking surveys in the month of April.

Taken from this coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:09 PM

Carol,
       Rule number one for any politician "get elected and say anything you have to to achieve that goal". It is the American way
whether we like it or not.

However, even after you get elected, all politics is based on give and take as well as compromise in order to realize your agenda.

Case in point" JFK, as popular as he was could not get his programs through congress. It took his assasination plus the ascendancy of LBJ to the presidency that enabled the Great Society legislation to finally pass congress.

Obama has some great ideas. But are the folks who have the seniority in congress ready to go along with him? It will be no easy task.
                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:17 PM

GOE,
    I wonder how many Orthodox Jews were in that poll.

In the Orthodox community it is McCain 100% and Obama zero.

I live in this community and I am an itegral part of it.

I am 65 year old and have never in all my life seen my community so unified against a candidate like they are against Obama.

It is not that they love McCain but they fear Obama.

                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:32 PM

I don't disagree with that, Sol. However, I think that the internet may change things a bit in that regard. For instance, I think that Obama's ability to raise money in small amounts from millions of voters via the internet could possibly help to break the hold that the pro-apartheid lobby has on the politicians in this country. It is certainly my hope that this will be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:34 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

Orthodox Jews are but a minority among all American Jews. I would bet they are a big part of the 32% that would vote for McCain over Obama.

I would also bet that that there are not enough Orthodox Jews in any particular state, even New York, to throw that state to McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:42 PM

GOE,
      Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to).

Remember the case of Hillary with the village of New Square in the senatorial campaign, where her opponent Rick Lazio, got only 3 votes to Hillary's 2,000.

In a close election the bloc vote can decide where all of New Yor's delegates go.
                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:44 PM

It won't be that close in New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:45 PM

Interestingly, due to the vagaries of a multi-party parliamentary system, I understand there ARE enough Orthodox Jews in New York to control the election results in Israel. For decades, the ultra-Orthodox (both inside and outside Israel) have stymied Israeli attempts to make peace with the Palestinians. I can't say that Palistinian intransigence has helped things, though.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:48 PM

"Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to)."


                   That's kind of the way born-again-Christians vote too. I think they would be better off to think for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Why in the world would Orthodox Jews 'fear' Obama? I have heard NOTHING that would suggest (to me, anyway) that Obama would be anything but fair & reasonable towards all people.

...oh, maybe that's the problem. Special interest groups are not always interested in 'fair & reasonable' attitudes...they prefer attitudes which favor their own concerns.
It is the same whether we are talking about gun owners, oil companies, illegal immigrants, ...or religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:03 PM

BillD, if I understand the logic correctly, Rev. Wright at one point (or maybe several points) made one of his mild and mellow comments about Israel. Since Israel = Jews and Wright = Obama, ergo it was Obama making anti-Semitic comments. The logical disconnects are too numerous to mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:10 PM

Makes sense to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:21 PM

Oh...I see...logic! (I don't suppose it would help for me to visit the Grand Rabbi and explain the error in his logic about "Israel = Jews and Wright = Obama".

I will say....it scares me MUCH more to know there are groups voting as a bloc because of the ideas of one man, than it does to know that one candidate once was on good terms with a guy they don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:43 PM

"Interestingly, due to the vagaries of a multi-party parliamentary system, I understand there ARE enough Orthodox Jews in New York to control the election results in Israel."

That's not correct. Although all Jews have the right to Israeli citizenship should we decide to live there, we in the Diaspora who have not moved there and become citizens do not have the right to vote in Israeli elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Ghost of Electricity (inactive)
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:48 PM

"Orthodox Jews , especially Hasidics tend to vote as a bloc (which ever way the Grand Rabbi tells them to)."

Hasidics, maybe. Most modern Orthodox Jews are not puppets. The polls indicate that most will vote for Obama.

Frankly, fundamentalist Jews have more in common with fundamentalists of other faiths than they do with most mainstream Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: Peace
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:53 PM

Ain't THAT the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama on Zionism, Jews
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:41 PM

It seems a shame that Palestinians and Jews cannot peacefully exist in one, united country - but if the residents of the "occupied territories" were given full citizenship, the Jews would once again be a minority and their existence would once again be threatened.

I'd agree with the first part of that, and it would be consisternt with the apirations of one strand of historical Zionism, which did not see the establishment of a Jewish homeland where Jews woudl ahve a right to live would mean a country in which the existing inhabitants were reduced to a minority.

I don't think it can be assumed that a shared Jewish/Palestinian homeland would mean a less secure future for its Jewish population than one in which every other consideration is subordinated to a determination to maintain a permanent Jewish majority.

At present the Jewish population of Israel is about 5,499,000. The total number of Palestinians living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is about 5,200,000.