BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?

Subject: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM

Todays Independent reports...

'As one of his first acts in the White House, Barack Obama is preparing to move hundreds of detainees from Guantanamo Bay prison to the US where they will be given legal hearings, trials or face yet-to-be-established special terrorist courts.

Mr Obama has a long-standing commitment to shut down Guantanamo, which has become a symbol of injustice for human rights campaigners, and a lightning rod for anti-US criticism since it opened eight years ago. Closing the prison, which is on a part of Cuba leased to the US, will bring to an end one of the most poisonous legacies of the Bush administration '

However, 'some Democrats and many human rights advocates argue for a return to the pre-9/11 use of criminal courts for trying suspected terrorists.

They are wary of Obama's following in the steps of Bush by creating another legal process outside of the courts.

"All this talk of a special 'hybrid court' is a solution looking for a problem," said Eric Freedman, a Hofstra University constitutional law professor.

"There is absolutely nothing that the United States government would want to achieve in this area that it could not achieve in the tried and true U.S. justice system," he said.

Roll on!

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

About time too.

There was an apologist on the radio this evening suggesting that if an Arab country had given evidence which had resulted in arrest - and didn't want its citizens to know that it was cooperating with the USA on that basis then there was a good reason to withold the evidence. If they had evidence perhaps they contaminated it by torturing people.

Round spherical objects and I am surprised the journalist didn't say so.

Get the people or trial or release them. There are lots of people been released and as far as I know not one has subsequently been involved in anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: heric
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

I think the only one was a guy who worked for Osama as a driver, and he was finally sentenced to a severe scolding or something. Military jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM

There is an interesting opinion piece on it HERE. The analyst seems to think Obama can do it, esp. with the input of some key people. Well worth the read, imo, esp. the last few paragraphs.

This, along with the other top priority things he is focussing on "Keep the Hope Afloat," imo!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:57 PM

It's simple enough. If there isn't the evidence to convict the person is innocent.   "Evidence" rising from torture is not evidence, and is not admissable. That's how it's always suppose to work, and there's no justification for changing it in these cases.

Maybe some people will get acquitted who are in fact guilty. But that's always the case, and on balance its recognised that its part of the price of a tolerable system of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

Someone I was listening to a little while ago (can't remember who or where) was saying that the alternative court would probably be the US' military courts martial. The reason given being that if there was classified information that would need to come out during the trial, the courts martial would be set up to handle that, while the rights of the accused would be the same as that enjoyed by our own military members. I guess if there is a situation where there really is classified information that could cause real problems (and not just make someone in our military or government look bad), that might be a reasonable way to handle it.

Personally, I think we should be releasing all of the people in Guantanamo with an apology and some form of compensation for the harm we have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

I think this action would send a major positive signal to the world that the era of barbarism in the name of the United States has come to an end; that while as strong as ever in the pursuit of enemies, we will no longer resort to brutality against the unarmed in the dramatization of security.

If you are convinced that the abrasion of human rights and the Geneva Convention embraced by the Bsuh Administration (not just at Gitmo but throught its domain--ABu Ghraib comes to mind) was some sort of necessary evil, I suggest you recalibrate and refresh your thinking. That's MNSHO.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM

Pulling a figure out of the nether regions, I'd guess that 95% of the people locked up at Guantanamo Bay are guilty of nothing more than fighting for their side in a war, if that. Some are certainly there because they were finked out by the opposite side in a local feud or, like the Chinese nationals recently cleared of all charges, because there is nowhere for them to go. I think it will be unfortunate if those individuals who are very likely guilty of real crimes, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, end up being freed because of tainted interrogations.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:35 PM

At yesterdsy's press briefing, Dana Perino, the president's press secretary, said that several of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners who have been released to their home countries have gone back to acts of terrorism, including a suicide bomber who killed himself and 40 others in Mosul.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Christian families flee Mosul after death threats

October 20, 2008 -- Updated 2046 GMT (0446 HKT)
                
*        Number of Christian families fleeing Mosul has risen to 2,000, official says
*        14 Christians have been slain in recent weeks in Mosul
*        Iraqi police patrolling city, particularly Christian areas
*        Authorities say attacks may be prompted by earlier Christian demonstrations
        Next Article in World »


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Nearly 600 more Christian families have fled the northern Iraqi city of Mosul over the past week, amid threats by Muslim extremists to convert to Islam or risk death, an official in Nineveh province said Monday.

Last week, Iraq's Ministry of Immigration and Displaced Persons said 1,424 Christian families had fled Mosul. Nineveh Deputy Gov. Khasro Goran said the number has since risen to 2,000, based on the most recent figures from Nineveh's office of Immigration and Displaced Persons.

Fourteen Christians have been slain in recent weeks in Mosul, which is about 260 miles north of Baghdad. On Friday, Iraqi security forces arrested four men in Mosul in connection with anti-Christian attacks.

Iraqi authorities believe al Qaeda in Iraq is behind the violence. Mosul is one of the last Iraqi cities where al Qaeda in Iraq has a significant presence and routinely carries out attacks.

Iraqi security forces continue to patrol the city daily -- particularly the city's Christian neighborhoods -- and violence has decreased as a result, Goran said. Despite this, more families have fled and very few families have returned...

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:01 PM

I suspect Ms Perino's pants are on fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM

Much as I would LOVE to see this happen, I'm waiting on ALL campaign promises until he's sworn in and has had all his intel briefings. Promises have a funny way of changing once that happens. IMO, only after the full weight of the office descends upon his shoulders will we really see the measure of the man. I sure don't envy him the tasks ahead. I hope all his support stays strong.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM

So long as the classified information isn't to do with covering up torture and so forth.

If it's a case of some needing to protect their identity because of risk to themselves or their family etc there are ways of ensuring that is done within a normal court structure.
......................

Iraqi authorities believe al Qaeda in Iraq is behind the violence. Quite possibly - but since the occupation the Christian minority in Iraq (which has longer historical roots in the country y than the Muslim majority) has been mostly driven out, and many have been killed. And most of this hasn't actually been the work of Al Qaeda, though of course they've done their bit. It was a direct result of the sectarianism unleashed by the invasion. The invasion was a complete disaster for Iraqi Christians. And not least because it gave Al Qaeda the opportunity to move in and prosper.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM

"I think the only one was a guy who worked for Osama as a driver"

There was an Aussie who our Little Fascist Johnny cooperated with in the torture and harassment of, who finally cracked and pleaded guilty under the 'Start Chamber System' - the ONLY ONE, as far as I know, who cracked when he could no longer take it any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:57 PM

He's already receiving the intel briefings. He's getting all of the same information now that Bush is getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:33 PM

Now, you know that can't be true. There are different layers of what can be told to whom, when. You'll see.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

Did you ever watch 24? Remember that unit employee whose job so often involved torturing other employees with injections of super-secret fluid? Didn't you wonder who he sat with in the lunch room?

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

I don't know, WYSusie???

I kinda think that Guantanamo is a real biggie for America's foriegn policy... I don't think, for instance, that Obama will get anywhere with out European allies to step up and help in Afganistan if he doesn't follow thru on shutting down Guantanama... And he/we need alot of more cooperation from these countries if he/we are to suceed in Afganistan...

This is one of those promises that he, IMHO, will keep...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:52 PM

I said that he is already receiving the briefings. I know that that much is definitely true.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:54 PM

Forgot this part... and they contain the same information as the briefings being given to Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:52 PM

Those who were NOT real 'terrorists' when sent to Guantanamo, might well be when they leave after being mistreated for several years.

I have little doubt that 'certain parties' are afraid of what will be discovered IF the place is closed and trials are held and/or prisoners released.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:18 AM

Emma B: "Roll on?" I wonder if you will feel that way when the internees at Guantanamo are dumped into your neighborhood. Let us know, will you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:21 AM

Since the Brits are not in charge of - or implicated in- Guantanamo, Doug, Emma B is not likely to get released internees dumped into her neighborhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:28 AM

Perhaps the simplest thing would be to hand Guantanamo back to Cuba, and let them sort it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Goodbye Guantanamo?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:14 AM

"I wonder if you will feel that way when the internees at Guantanamo are dumped into your neighborhood. Let us know, will you?"

Considering the UK Government has repatriated all the UK citizens that were kidnapped and tortured then I don't think it unreasonable for the country that created this sordid little episode of history to take some responsibility and sort it out.

If as Amos says "the era of barbarism in the name of the United States has come to an end" then you have to accept it's time to deal with some thorny issues in a way that befits your aspirations as a world power to be looked to as a beacon of light rather than an agent of injustice and intimidation.