BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found

Subject: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:01 PM

Salvagers have discovered the legendary wreck of the HMS Victory somewhere in the Bay of Biscay, and it could hold 500 million dollars in gold: Click here for report

The Victory, a predecessor to Admiral Nelson's Victory, sank on October 4, 1744.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:21 PM

Thanks Charlie, a very important find.

I'd have to say that I think it rather gluttonous of Spain's belief that they could lay claim to any treasures where it seems that British authorities may have been more respectful of those that discover wrecks & bring the historical pasts back to the surface.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:06 PM

Barry-

Why should we expect the Spanish or British to behave any differently than any other pirates?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM

I guess Spain never heard of finders keeper, loser weepers...

This is neat and I look forward to the program on Discovery Channel. Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:17 AM

Kat-

The legal aspects of "finders keepers" is endlessly fascinating. The salvagers in this case have a wealth of experience to draw upon, and I think this will make a great story for the rest of us to view.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Beer
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:42 AM

What a find indeed.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:43 AM

From what I have read, the Crown has not forfeited rights to the ship and its contents so the salvagers may have to negotiate for their share. Anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

Spain has an army of lawyers who claim to be above salavge law when it comes to treasure ships. I knew one of the lawyers who worked out of the DC embassy to lay claim to all Spanish Treasure ships.

For Spain to have it both ways would put them in a precarious position.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM

The Crown is making the claim of sovereign domain over the find; the finders, of course, will not reveal the location of the find until they have been granted a share. This leaves the Crown in the position of a dog in the manger, so to speak. So the chances are good a reasonable accord will b e reached, given the long history of rationality of the British government in all matters large and small.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:03 AM

Practising hard at the old irony, eh, Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

I really find it offensive that the Spanish government, which has made no effort of recovery is claiming title to shipwrecks. These people have done the research and risked life, limb and property in order to recover the objects from the sea bed. If, as they claim, the government has not abandoned the property, what have they done to recover it other than to try to steal it from legitimate salvors?

There needs to be a meeting addressing this in the next Law of the Sea conference so that the veil of secrecy can be lifted to avoid the fear of expropriation. In addition, resolving this issue would allow real archeologists to study the wrecks instead of forcing the salvors to be "rip and run" experts.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:54 PM

Yes, Charley, I have followed this "salvage crew" through some of their other discoveries. It is fascinating!

EBarnacle, I agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM

The Spanish haven't made a claim for this wreck and I don't think they have any grounds.

The Portuguese might have a claim though given that it was their gold that was being shipped aboard the Victory.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

At the time she sank, wasn't Portugal owned by the Spanish?

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM

"At the time she sank, wasn't Portugal owned by the Spanish?" - Nope HMS Victory sank in 1744, the sixty year period of the Iberian Union was from 1580 to 1640.

"The Portuguese might have a claim though given that it was their gold that was being shipped aboard the Victory." - Not necessarily the link you supplied states - "The HMS Victory was returning from Lisbon, Portugal, and was probably transporting 100,000 gold Portuguese coins for merchants, according to Odyssey's research." Does go into which merchants, coins belonging to English merchants for good purchased by the Portuguese and delivered, or Portuguese merchants sending money for goods to be sent out.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:58 PM

Teribus-

After rereading the report it isn't clear to me which merchants owned the gold coins either. This will be any interesting episode in this old story.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:55 PM

One would think that the owner of the ship would be the owner of the coins but the there the matter of whose's the righfull owner of the ship. It was in international waters, was it not?
Did the insurance pay on the losses, after all Lloyds was in business at the time & if were not insured then the insurance company doesn't own it & isn't it consided a loss at sea & therefore rightfully salavagable by Admiraly Law?
If a US sub sank in Russian waters who would get the rights to that?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:35 AM

I thought about Lloyds and whether "the merchants" had been paid out. Alternatively as this was a warship whatever it was carrying may not have insured.

There is absolutely no doubt who owns the ship - the owners at the time the vessel sank.

One example I,ve been involved with was the case of HMS Edinburgh, a cruiser that was sunk on its way back from Russia carrying gold bullion belonging to the Soviet Government. The gold was in payment for supplies being sent to Russia. The ship belonged to and still belongs to HM Government, the gold once recovered was shared between the Soviet Government, the British Government and the salvage company.

Additionally warships are automatically designated war graves.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Barry Finn
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:04 AM

Even those sunk 2 1/2 centuries ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:21 PM

They had a pretty good video about this on Discovery Channel this evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:34 AM

Yes Barry even those sunk two and a half centuries ago, those wrecks are further protected by also being designated marine archeological sites.

One exception to these rules that I do know of is the "Tobermory" wreck, which is the wreck of a Spanish galleon that was part of the Armada that sank in Tobermory Bay. That is the property of the Duke of Argyll, who can do whatever he wants with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:30 AM

How can they designated a site when no one knew or even seemed to care where some of these veessels where?
I don't know about these things & I'm not saying you're right or wrong, matter of fact I tend to believe you're right but it's not the least bit logicial but then when it comes to nations & their reasonings not much is.
Spain claims a wreck in international waters. It has never done research to find it. Were England ever at war? We know? Were we ever at war with England or Spain? We know that too. Vessels captured at sea & at war cannot be claimed by the loser, right? A letter of mark issued against a nation is license to plumder, except if it sinks? If it stayed afloat it would've vanished into the coffers of whosoever took her, no? A private vessel ends up beached on the sand, if the owner makes no attempt to stay with her or to save her & the leaves her the vessel is abandoned & salvage rights goes to who ever trys to rescue her, no? If a sub goes down in international waters there is a race by nations to get to her before the military that owns her arrives, for salvage???
When a plane goes down in any terrority, land or sea, is it considered a "war grave"?

I agree, EBarnacle, a thorough reveiw of International Admiraly Laws needes to be updated from the 17th century & brought into the present.

I would think that the HMS Edinburgh claims & how that was worked out seems to be more in line with what's fair & just. Though I don't really see that either England nor Russia would have near as much claim as the salvagers. If so then these nations that want to be reimbursed should then either take on these salvage missions themselves of else partly fund the salvagers, call it R&D, if they want money back. Whereas nationals treasures may changes some of the ground work.
So who gets the pirate booty, who ever the pirate stole it from? Prove it!

Why then bother to notify any athority that a find has been made if it's goona get taken. That would the discourage any one from looking, no? And don'y we all want these finds to be found?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:10 AM

A pedantic point, Barry, but any warship that sank after 1707 would be British, not English.

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: bankley
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:44 AM

arr.... we gets the metal an' you keeps the bones

Subject: RE: BS: Treasure Ship HMS Victory Found
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:31 AM

The way to really encourage thieving...salving...looting is to simply designate all wrecks historic grave sites. Then, anyone who brought stuff to the surface would neglect to declare finds and would sell the pelf on the sub rosa market, completely circumventing any official involvement and research.

Of course, in order to do that, the governments would have to find the sites themselves and publish the locations.