GEFF and Proud of it

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:56 AM

Careful, glueman. Pointing your camera at peoples trousers could get you into serious trouble.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM

And more Jim! This time 'Live' on the Yorkshire Belle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSaF5CMXYbA

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

Them hog lyrics make T S Elliot look like a part-time poet who works in a bank. Eat your cats heart out!
Hurley misses the obligatory number of notes to qualify for a Grumpy since 1954 kitemark of purity too. He's certainly the hog for me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:21 AM

That's right!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:08 PM

Someone earlier was asking for 'evidence' that some clubs are less than perfect. Rather than write it all out again, I've mentioned one painful experience in this thread.
As to what am I doing; well, I've tried to support my local club (see thread above!), but I've also tried to encourage my local music venue to hold folk nights. To his credit Steve, the owner, is a keen folk fan and former morris dancer, but he just shakes his head "Call it a folk night and no-one will come - and those that do tend to be bloody awful," he says. "Believe me, I've tried!"
So now he has accoustic nights and open-mic evenings, at which anything goes, but no-one is allowed to use the F-word...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

"hog lyrics make T S Elliot look like a part-time poet who works in a bank"

Some of your comments above seem rather hard to understand Gg. The one I have quoted is just one of them.

And, if I may, it does rather sound as if the place that Gervase did not like was not a folk club at all, but an Americana open(ish) mic.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:44 PM

Perhaps, but to quote the website:
"XXXXX Folk and Acoustic Music is a live music venue that features a range of folk and acoustic styles by local and guest musicians and songwriters. On any given evening you may hear traditional and modern folk songs, ragtime, bluegrass, shanties and sea songs, Celtic tunes, and finger style guitar pieces."
That's what made me think it might be what passed for a folk club in these parts!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM

Richard Bridge, TS Eliot was, for several years, a part-time poet who worked in a bank. I believe he was rescued from this grim existence by that old fascist, Ezra Pound.

Glueman's being facetious.

I thought it was funny.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM

Ah, that's usually a giveaway: "Folk and Acoustic" usually means "We really don't want folk, we'd rather have other acoustic stuff, probably with amplification".

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

"hog lyrics make T S Elliot look like a part-time poet who works in a bank"

Makes perfect sense to me, Richard - what is difficult to understand is the need for this sort of sniping.

Whatever the case, open-mic or whatever, it seems people are so deafened by celebrity driven glitz & razzmatazz (even folk razzmatazz) that they can no longer hear the beauty (or see the point) of ordinary people getting up & singing a song.

I use razzmatazz in the sense of a flashy action or display intended to bewilder, confuse, or deceive, believing that we have been deceived, confused and bewildered in the name of entertainment for too long.

Folk Music, the antithesis of entertainment!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

Richard has had me in his cross hairs since I appeared a week or two back. The Glueman as any fule no, was a character in a wartime film who threw glue into the hair of landgirls at night to stop them going out with GIs, who would otherwise attend his lectures on archaeology and the beauty of the England.

To the extent that he had an obsessive interest in preserving 'the old ways' he reminded me of myself. Compared to Mr Bridge he was clearly a dilettante and tyro. RB operates so far beyond the irony curtain discussion founders immediately, as it has done here. The man is on rails, I was tweaking his points.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

'The Glueman as any fule no, was a character in a wartime film..."

A Canterbury Tale (1944) - Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Some of your comments above seem rather hard to understand Gg. The one I have quoted is just one of them."

and so they would be hard to understand if a person wasn't familiar with T S Elliot....

and , yes, Gg, the parallels between the magistrate Thomas Colpeper, and Mr Bridge are quite remarkable :-)

"an eccentric figure with a strange, mystical vision of the history of England"

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Silas
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM

Gervase

THat IS a proper folk club!

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM

When Colpepper the glueman says 'What did you hear?' and Alison says 'a lute, or an instrument like a lute' RB would yell 'well was it or wasn't it you stupid woman. Anyway lutes are the instrument of the oppressor and 1954 never mentioned them.'

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:41 PM

From A Canterbury Tale:

Thomas Colpeper, JP: [hidden in the tall grass] Glorious, isn't it?

Alison Smith: [startled] Is anybody there?

Thomas Colpeper, JP: [standing] It's a real voice you heard. You're not dreaming.

Alison Smith: You know, just now I - I heard sounds.

Thomas Colpeper, JP: What sounds did you hear?

Alison Smith: Horses' hooves, voices, and a lute. Or an instrument like a lute. Did you hear anything?

Thomas Colpeper, JP: Those sounds come from inside, not outside. Then only when you're concentrating, when you believe strongly in something. Just now I was concentrating on who was coming up the hill to disturb me.

Alison Smith: Disturb you? At what?

Thomas Colpeper, JP: Breathing the air, smelling the earth, watching the clouds. Why don't you sit down?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

Powell and Pressburger used folk music and singers in I Know Where I'm Going and probably elsewhere if I have a think.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:48 PM

Gg , this link to Powell and Pressburger may help

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

Cheers Charlotte, haven't visited that site for a few years, it's come on a bit. The songs were Eilean Mocaridh, Mo Nighean Donn Bhòidheach and Fear A' Bhata.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:24 PM

It is utterly unrelated to the topic which appears to have been launched in a pathetic attempt to justify the existence of those who can't be arsed to present traditional material in the best possible light.

Mistress Easby,

As the originator of this thread, all I can say is that since you don't know me, how can you possibly have any idea of why I started it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

A Canterbury Tale - one of my favourites too, but as I recall there's a dreadful attempt at Purcell's setting of Psalm 102 Verse 1 (Hear my Prayer, O Lord) in Canterbury Cathedral. Here's a nice one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WXx5tttwGo

And whilst we're in Canterbury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv1lTaE0rcA

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:37 PM

Never trust a coffee drinker... (From A Canterbury Tale)

:-D

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM

A dreadful attempt Sedayne but as they rebuilt Canterbury Cathedral on the studio lot, ambition wasn't something P and P lacked. I'd forgotten how Prog Hatfield were, I recall them as a pub rock early Stiff style outfit. Memory's not what it was.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:58 PM

Oh no! I'm a terrible daft fule then! :(

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:10 PM

But Sue, are you gorgeous? For I am old and beauty and a kind heart trump knowledge. Or knowledge of old black and white British movies anyway.
Thing is Sue, I have an aversion to any musical form that resembles those playground discussions of yore where one has to prove oneself worthy to gain entry to the gang. The scorers of that goal, the name of Troy Tempest's Mother, the ruminations of 1954. Pop, and indeed folk, will eat itself if it's not careful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:17 PM

'Ah, that's usually a giveaway: "Folk and Acoustic" usually means "We really don't want folk, we'd rather have other acoustic stuff, probably with amplification".'


Why is that I often get the feeling I'm at an anorak convention when I read some of the things on these threads? ;-)

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:24 PM

Me too - I see the word folk in the blurb, and a website with the heading "XXXX folk club" and, unlettered clod that I am, I make the silly assumption that it's a folk club.
Best to avoid 'em all like the plague, I think, lest I get buttonholed at the bar by anoraks muttering about 1954 (in my day that was just before eight).
Anyway, until such time as a decent folk club appears within 25 miles of my I'll stick to concerts (and our local theatre booker has excellent taste - we've had Bellowhead twice in the past two years, Eliza Carthy twice and June Tabor three times. I must work on her to extend the range a bit, though).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:41 PM

Gorgeousness is in the eyes of the beholder (is all I'm sayin')

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:59 PM

Gg, you don't seem to get it at all. I don't want to stop anyone doing anything (of relevance to this thread). The song you seem so to admire seemed tripe to me, but I'd not want to stop you singing it.   I might go away while you did, but that's different.

You claim my words are obscure. Try some of your own: -

"It's too much to hope in our intertextual, reflexive, digital times that any music won't annexe its fellow travellers. Where some see dissolution and rot I see hybrid vigour"..

Pretentious, or what?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:47 AM

In's not my workaday speak, it's the stuff I use in the face of unjustified certainty RB.

Text is a terrible word I admit, but it covers music, art and literature and I couldn't think of another. Inter, well you know man it's like inter, innit? They pinch from each other big time. Reflexive = up its own fundament (but in a nice way) as for digital, well once you've got a cheap box of tricks that can flip any recordable music into any other da kids are going to do it.
Your hallowed squeeze box/fiddle comes out as a theramin/string orchestra at the touch of a button. Not my cuppa tea but the instructions on such gadgets lack a taste and discernment appendix as I understand. But then you're talking to a man who struggles to put html codes around a few words to make a linky.

As for Hog of the Forsaken, yes, I thought it sublime. Genuinely moving and poetic and fantastically sung by someone untroubled by vocal convention. As honest a song as a man did and therefore folk to its very core. Don't bother with a come back on the last bit, my mind is quite made up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:54 AM

So honesty = folk
Dishonesty = everything else.

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:55 AM

Folk, a vernacular definition, of the people. The people being me.

Proletarian with anti-establishment overtones, acoustic but not to a fault, using traditional form or subject matter.
Singing like a bee in a flue, wearing particular clothes, adopting hierarchies of folkiness or being prescriptive about nuance are all the enemy of folk. Blokey bonding and clubbishness likewise.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:39 AM

I've nearly gone, but...

Lovely to see a bit of Snook. Thank you Glueman and Sedayne. There's also a great clip of him singing the sublime 'Tea Song' on Youtube.

Now there's a man whose music is deeply rooted in the American folk traditions.

Yet there's also a man with his own unique, idiosyncratic vision of how that music should sound, who sings and plays his heart out every time.

Nothing bland, anodyne, lowest common demoninator, seen-it-all-before, dull-but-worthy about Snook.

When I talk about 'professionalism' (maybe I'm using the wrong word?) it's these qualities I'm looking for rather than the slick, soulless razzamatazz of showbiz...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM

Going Right back to the thread, I am perfectly sure that GEFF as used by Alex Campbell, has been taken out of context.
It's use by Alex arose as a light hearted riposte and comparable phrase to that used by his fellow professional Diz Disley who used say, after hastily re-tuning his guitar "It's good enough for Jazz".
It always got a mild chuckle. Nothing more than THAT in it.
As for professionalism in Folk music , there are many "amateurs " who are very professional in their stage performance , but remember a Professional often needs to market him /herself(club organisers get inundated with calls each night from professionals looking for dates),logistics and costs of travel accommodation, suiting the politics and personalities of clubs organisers and leading lights in the Club in order to get a return gig, rough kips(assured that accommodation is available for you, only to find it's two seater settee with a duvet), duff on the road fast food, need to practice and learn new material,don't mention Tax and National Insurance contributions , avoiding illness and sore throats, maintaining instruments , buying strings etc .....I'm going to stop there, as I could fill another two entire Pages.
So good luck to those who try to go Professional and manage to make it pay and have an enjoyable life. I think that if it "pays" you're probably "selling" a good product for which people are willing to come pay ,see and listen.
If it doesn't - there are a myriad of reasons for why it didn't work - some itemised above . It may not necessarily mean your performance standard is /was not GEFF.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:16 AM

Certainly what Alex Campbell was wont to say was taken out of context - by those who thought (wrongly) that it was licence to perform any old crap badly. It was/is not. Certainly Alex could be bad (when pissed) and ought not to have gone on. It was/is unprofessional to do so.

Professionalism extends to organisation too and I am grateful (and surprised) at Betsy mentioning it as he's usually very quick to tip the bricks over me when I do. Pro artists are doing this for a living, not (just) for fun. Good working conditions and the rate for the job should be an entitlement, not a favour.

Gone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:24 AM

Almost a year since I wrote this but I do think it has some relevance!
Best wishes, Mike.


In the days when men grafted, on ships of the line,
Drinkin tottys and tellin' a yarn.
In the days when the farmers and labourers drank,
At harvests end, sat in the barn.
They sang songs of the era, with overall zest,
Told of tasks they performed every day.
All men were expected to sing t'would appear,
They all did because that was the way.

So Folk songs were born, they were sung then for free,
Some sung to achieve an ambition.
The better ones lasted for decades and more,
Folk singing became a 'tradition'.
There are those round still, who would echo that cause,
To use Folk Clubs for all to take part.
But some now think only the best should perform,
I believe they are lacking in heart.

Mike Hill
May 2007

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:26 AM

Glueman - could it be you're getting Hatfield and the North mixed up with Kilburn and the High Roads?

Nigel - Problem with professionalism is that it lends itself to these very qualities - i.e. the slick, soulless razzamatazz of showbiz - which are a complete anathema to the notion a Folk Music, the context of which is just as essential as the content. The sort of idiosyncratic genius we see in Snock & Jim Eldon isn't something we see a lot of, but to my tired old ears any sort of idiosyncrasy is a boon in this day and age!

I've also got issues with the embourgeoisment of folk music as far as aesthetical / critical criteria are concerned; hence, presumably, the original 'ghastly' quote from someone who wouldn't know folk music if you rammed a Black Sea Fiddle up his arse.

However, just because one sings in folk clubs and singarounds doesn't make one a musician any more than the fact of one messing about with herbs, spices, vegetables & fowl in the kitchen makes one a cook. One also makes bread, but one is no baker; one also fixes the leaky pipe in the bathroom as often as necessary, but one isn't a plumber. Surely this is the essence of Folk Music; the purposefully pragmatic crack & the simple joyous necessity of doing the thing however so short our various efforts might fall of a few entirely misplaced benchmarks.

Now back to John Jacob Niles: http://www.myspace.com/johnjacobniles01

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:37 AM

Argh 'Snock' not 'Snook'! Head not quite yet on right today...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Earl
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:37 AM

Diane said:-
"Good working conditions and the rate for the job should be an entitlement, not a favour."

Yes but "Professional" artists are prepared to accept what might be seen as less than the "rate" in order to keep themselves in the (folk) public eye out of the Festival season and between "concerts".

Seems to me that this is also a "professional" attitude. (They came to see me at the club so they may come to my concert/festival booking if I make a good showing here tonight?). Isn't it, somewhat extended perhaps, a form of showcasing.

In "business terms aren't we talking Market Share, Loss Leaders and such buzz phrases?

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:56 AM

"Glueman - could it be you're getting Hatfield and the North mixed up with Kilburn and the High Roads?"

D'oh! Saw them both and should have known better. In mitigation a mate took me to see endless Prog bands (in number and duration) who did merge rather. Funny how English progressive rock has gone from being derided to a quintessential part of the domestic scene.

So far as professionalism goes the point is most 'pro' acts aim to provide a market with a performance that is as close to previous delivery and recordings as possible. Industrial production if you like. Mood, ambience, bloody mindedness have no place in the industrial method - though Motown did rather well by nailing some highly nuanced jazz musicians onto a big square beat - so cannot by definition be idiosyncratic. Against such prescription like you Sedayne, familiarity means I treat the quirky and raw as the rarity it is and prize it accordingly.

The return to definitions of what folk is, even when such prompts are only in the eye of the beholder, is monomania frankly. The fact the debate is still running shows the music is still pulling at its fetters and therefore, alive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

Wikipedia

Since no-one (as far as I know) has asserted that folk is the only music that should be peformed or listened to, the reference to monomania seems rather wide of the mark.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

To quote from your own link RB:

"In colloquial terms, the term monomania is often attached to subcultures that to the general public appear esoteric. However, the differences between monomania and passion can be very subtle and difficult to recognize."

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

Getting back to Canterbury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTSgARGv500

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM

And from Robert Wyatt's Sea Song, to Rachel Unthank and the Winterset's version which is how I came here two weeks ago. Weird, a bit like Soft Machine and only in the best possible way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:53 AM

Have you seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9g6La7wmzA

My favourite Wyatt on YouTube right now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIX1UqNrtwE

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM

Wyatt's avoidance of melody is truly heroic. Hadn't seen either of those clips. He's up there with The Fall and Kate Bush in the English canon.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM

Oh yes; another of my life-long folk favourites: when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUpS7MBb90

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Fearful symmetry, how about Catherine Bush's video homage (IMHO) to Powell and Pressburger's A Matter of Life and Death. Further up slickness scale but no less cheerfully deranged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm901CXujEg

Somebody tell me how to link.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: glueman
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:40 AM

See if this works
this woman's work

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:42 AM

<a href=Your URL>Your text</a>

or use the Make a link("blue clicky") link at the bottom of the form.