BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK

Subject: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:18 AM

Over the last 4 years the attack against dissenting speech regarding Bush's Godly unending war for freedom with the familiar phrases: shut up, you can't say that, you are a traitor if you don't support...

Polite politically correct language explains away much of the oppression of speech as "market pressures that drive the integrity of journalism downward."

Now Tony Blair has gone beyond most US pressures to censor free speech.
He says "those who spread words of hate will be deported".

The implication is that citizens are exempt and only radical muslim clerics will be sent packing, afterall if this taken literally the question arises; where do we send citizen critics of the government. Hull?

How would this UK policy fly in the US. Obviously the word 'hate' would have a very narrow definition or we would have have to deport Rush Limbaugh somewhere. Maybe to an off shore Oxycontin factory.



The sytematic dissolution of free speech is creating a wider divide among people in the US. There is a growing delusion of: us and them, red and blue, believers and non-believers, Christians vs. (god knows who).

There is a palatable sensation of what can not be said to neighbors even during election times. It has gone beyond "lets not go there".
It is at the "shut the F up level".

In the UK citizens are assured free speech, except those citizens who might make a difference. If you are a scientist who can prove that the Iraq WMDs were a fraud you might be in danger. Death is the ultimate deportation.


RIP Robin Cook.



Free speech is not dead but it is very sick at the moment. Within a couple more generations, the challenge to get it back may be insurmountable.

If you think the internet will be a safe haven for free speech forever you could be wrong. Legislating mandatory back doors
for the goverment
is just the begining.

Or maybe a 38% approval rating of GWB is the sign that we have had enough big brother despotism during his family's 12 years of rule.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:25 AM

1st sentence edit:

Over the last 4 years the attack against dissenting speech regarding Bush's Godly unending war for freedom has sounded like: "shut up, you can't say that, you are a traitor if you don't support _____, be careful what you say".

Then there is the outrageous balanced media slant.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:30 AM

I share your concerns; I think it is related to the migration toward the "company model" of national operation which makes the President more of a CEO than a political leader. I remember with 'orror when I first heard a bureacrat using the word "appropriate" to describe speech that was likely to be non-controversial -- if it was "inappropriate" you shouldn't say it. This was applied not only to normal etiquette like hate, swearing and sexual remarks but also ideas not likely to fit in well with the current train of group think being rippled down the organization.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Grab
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM

Donuel, why do you think Robin Cook was assassinated? (and if you don't think that, why did you so clearly imply it with "Death is the ultimate deportation. RIP Robin Cook."?)

I don't see why anyone should have the right to freely promote the killing of people based on gender, sexuality, religion, race or belief. Please explain to me why you do.

As for deportation, this was clearly stated as a solution only for those who have come to Britain as asylum seekers or immigrants. They have a choice - imprisonment for inciting people to murder, or deportation to their former homeland. If you're not an immigrant, you've only got one option involving large metal doors and a cell.

Note that hate speech will become a *criminal* act and therefore subject to the decision of 12 men and women of a jury. And if you're in the UK, you don't get the option to vet a jury like you do in the US - you get a pool of 16 people selected at random from those elegible, out of which 12 are selected at random.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:28 PM

Personally, I have NEVER felt constrained to 'watch' my speech, other than through the normal politenesses one finds oneself in at times. I have a friend I value highly- I like to spend time with him, but I do not ever bring up the subject of politics or the state of the US/world with him. We already know where the other stands.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:44 PM

I second Grab's post above ! When Local Religious Leaders can stand up and applaud Terrorist Bombing of totally innocent people at random
with people of their own religion killed , as well as a wide variety of Tourists and ordinary men and women going about their daily business , should we give them medals ? Or do something to stop them inciting even more atrocities ?

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Did you see the ITV poll, where viewers voted at the time I saw it that these monsters should be tried for treason (99%)

That just about shows the feeling of the public at the moment.

Are we just going to stand there and let these clerics say and do what they like in this country. I certainly don't want that.
I think it is disgraceful when these idiots go amongst a crowd and hidiously blow themselves up and anyone around them.

Get tough now before we have a Yugoslavia type situation on our hands. If you think that couldn't happen then you are a fool.
A few more of these senseless bombings against innocent people will probably start riots here. The hatred will be building up.

I just hope Donual that you aren't amongst the people that get killed in the next bomb blast. Although maybe you agree with the bombings. Who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:22 PM

So how would an organization such as this one (currently in the US), be handled if they were operating in Britain, and consisted of British born citizens? Would they go to prison?

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:04 PM

Good god! I don't think banning such a site will take care of such ugliness - it will merely take it underground. Exposure to the air might kill such ignorance and stupidity, although, quote: God has already written them off."

If I didn't think such gross reasoning is too far gone to even think or reconsider, I would list all the offenses-punishable-by-death that are given in the Christian Bible, and see if they would post it.

But for now, I'm got to go wash my hands.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:32 PM

"Get tough now before we have an ethnic cleansing situation on our hands..."sic

Obviously this person has insidiously sided with ethnic cleansing already.


and maybe if you get really tough even non ethnic cleansing will be in vogue.

I won't touch the rest of that person's opinion.

But for now, I'm got to go wash my hands..


"Vee vill clean house"
Arnold S.



btw
RIP Paul Wellstone

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:29 PM

The Villan said Get tough now before we have a Yugoslavia type situation on our hands and Donuel morphed that into "Get tough now before we have an ethnic cleansing situation on our hands..."sic. "Sic," of course, means "I am reproducing this statement exactly, however erronious it may be." There was a lot more involved in the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia than the attempt to carve the multi-ethnic and multi-religious state of Bosnia into Serbian and Croatian enclaves, but a lack of freedom of speech was never an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:19 PM

Religion..who needs it? I've never understood.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:00 PM

Donuel quotes Tony Blair as saying "those who spread words of hate will be deported". Now, first of all, I think Tony Blar is going quietly of his rocker(though who could blame him, how could a poor man stand such times and live). His solutions to the current world problems seem guaranteed to make them worse.
   Howwever, having said that, Donuel's quote looks a little suspicious to me. Did Tony Blair really say tyhat? So. just to settle the matter, donuel, could you either provide a source for this quote, or orherwise post "I'm sorry, I made this up to try to stir up shit because I am a bit of a liar".

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:30 PM

Article here, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:11 PM

Here's second source...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/05/world/main759985.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:17 PM

What the hell you commies talkin' 'bout???

Free speech is alive and never been in better shape than it is here in the land of Freedom... That's what Freedom means in case you liberals forgot what our boys are dieing for in Iraq...

Might of fact, you baby killin' liberals make me wanta puke... (spit)... Yeah an' you commies ain't gonna make me marry no queer either... Yeah I know that's what you want... Hey, think about this, you washrags crybabies... If everyonwe was a queer then where would the babies come from??? Yeah, didn't think you psudo-intellectulites ever thought about that 'cause 'bout half you all is stoned on drugs, and the other half you is just plain eat up with commie beliefs...

What we need is more folks standin' behind our President and less of you pinkos complaining about him. Hey, love it 'er leave it, gol dangit and God Bless America...Spit)

See, you wimprag whooses complain that there ain't no free speech... Well, yer wrong.... We got more free speech now than ever and if you don't like it go to Russia and live out yer lives with yer commie pals... ( spit)....

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:34 PM

CBS/AP) Prime Minister Tony Blair's government on Saturday defended its plans to crack down on extremist Islamic clerics who preach hate, as critics warned the measures could further alienate British Muslims.

Meanwhile, London police on Saturday charged suspected July 21 bomber Yassin Hassan Omar with conspiracy to murder passengers on the London transport system and possession of an explosive substance. Omar, 24, who was arrested in Birmingham on July 26, is the first of the four suspected bombers to be charged in Britain.

Britain's chief legal official, Lord Chancellor Charles Falconer, said the deadly attacks in London on July 7 showed the government must act against people "who are encouraging young men who are becoming suicide bombers."

---

Inciting people to murder other people is not just "free speech", guys. It is a civil offense and possibly places the speaker in the role of co-conspirator or accessory. We aren't talking about communication, here, in the civil sense.

I haven't seen any constraints on the free expression of ideas or free assembly except when they involve inciting to commit murder. WHat's the solution?

You think I am being bamboozled here? Just askin', ya know. Always open to correction.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:41 PM

My only question is, will these laws apply to everyone who spreads words of hate, or will they be applied selectively.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:56 PM

Well, gol dnaged, CarolC... Is that C in yer mane fir "commie, 'er what (spit)... Of course it's gonna apply to all you commie washrag liberals 'cause you all is the problem with us freedom loving folks...

Why dontcha just move to China 'er Russia and live out yer lives wearin sandals and chantin' them commie things every danged mornin'...

But leave us freedom loving, God fearin' folk alone... An' quit tryin' to make me marry a danged queer, will ya'.... (spit)...

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM

Carol C -

The "organization" cited at 08 Aug 05 - 02:22 PM has been around for some time, but it's difficult for those who only see its public actions to have any understanding of what it's all about. It claims to be a "church" and the site you linked, WBC1, has a "sister site" at WBC2.

The "Westboro Baptist Church" is known locally as the "cult of Fred." It consists almost entirely of "Fred," his wife, and most of his 13 children and a few of their spouses. Fred and 11(?) of his children have been licensed lawyers. Fred reportedly gave his children no choice in the matter. Fred lost his license to practice law in Kansas many years ago. He has also been disbarred from practicing in Federal courts, reportedly in a deal in which he accepted disbarmant to avoid charges, disbarment, censure, or suspension of several of the children. He also appears to have dictated who his children were permitted to marry, at least for those who remain "in God's (Fred's) good graces," and most of the "acceptable" spouses have also been licensed as lawyers.

Fred evidently had a "divine revelation" that you can get by with almost anything if you're a "church," so he became an ordained minister many years ago. "God" subsequently revealed to him that lawyers also can do almost anything they want, and it can be profitable, so he became a lawyer.

A reporter who was hired by a newspaper to investigate the "Fred cult" some years ago filed a lawsuit to attempt to get the right to publish after the newspaper declined to print his work. The manuscript for the book was attached as an exhibit to the suit, making it a public record - until the newspaper managed to get the court to seal the records. Copies of the manuscript, obtained before records were sealed, are widely available on the web, and can be found by searching on the title Addicted to Hate.

Additional sites:
http://blank.org/addict/
http://www.baptistwatch.org/content/expose1.html
http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/phelps/bl_phelpsmain.htm
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/usa/kansas/phelps/1994/addicted.to.hate-06.02.94
http://www.topekadiy.com/xfsection+index.category+3.htm
http://www.killcreek.com/devolution/addicted.html
http://www.baptistwatch.org/fredphelps.html

The manuscript runs over 100 pages, and while "Fred" doesn't merit the effort, as an example of how brainwashing and cult creation actually worked in one case they may be worth reading - if you've got a strong stomach. (Note that as a court record it's pretty much immune to being contested, but if you edit and publish it Fred's kids will probably sue you.)

A ca. 1994 letter from an "excommunicated" son pretty much sums up Fred.

A distrubing aspect of the "Fred cult" is that it borrows some doctrine fairly widely held, especially among those who've led recent "sanctity of marriage" actions, leading quite a number of people to actually believe that Fred has some religious purpose.

John

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:28 AM

That is pure awfulness incarnate; a psychotic maniac in human clothing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:49 AM

I see that evil cleric has done a runner from the uk. Saves Blair having to get rid of him. Now why don't the rest of the people that hate Britain and what it stands for, do exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:27 AM

Freedom of speech means not just being able to say anything, but that what you say MAY make a difference!
I used to think Blair was smart by letting the (insert appropriate group here) say what they wanted without reprisal because the Intelegence networks could get a good handle on them. They could then "deal" with the next level in the organisation!
The death of Robin Cook is obviously a blow to free speech(ers) simply because he was high profile and smart!

ps
I think Blair is basically trying to do his best in a bad world

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Grab
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:57 AM

A "Yugoslavia-type situation" ain't likely to happen. Why not? Because most of Britain is pretty damn clear that Muslims in general are not the problem. The heads of the various UK Muslim communities banded together and issued a fatwa declaring their opposition to the bombers and calling them "un-Islamic". It made the front pages in many papers. As frequently happens, horrible actions have good consequences, and one good consequence has been British Islamic leaders coming out and condemning the actions of Muslim fundamentalists, standing together with other British people of all religions and races.

Yes, there are racist nutters who'll use it the bombing as an excuse to have a go at Muslims. But if any of them fancy a bit of hate speech to incite violence against Muslims, they can be put away just as readily by the same laws that'll catch Abu Hamza, and good riddance to the nasty little shits. And ditto anyone who fancies inciting hatred against homosexuals or anyone else.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:19 AM

I think Tony is indulging in his usual "knee jerk without rational thought" politics.

Surely the best way of dealing with clerics who spout hate and bile would be to ask the real religious leaders of Islam to unfrock them, as would happen in the case of a Catholic or Church of England priest who transgressed.

In this way, the job would get done without feelings of insecurity being engendered in other Muslims, or feelings of suspicion in the Christian community, and free speech would remain intact.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The death of free speech in the US&UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

Don T -

I doubt that the "real religious leaders of Islam" have much more control over the "clerics who spout hate and bile" than the Catholic (Vatican) church had over the "deviant Catholics" in Germany in 1933. The Vatican was the first major political power to make a treaty with Natzi Germany, and the main original reason for the treaty was to get rid of the "liberal Catholic" (deviant) contingent in Germany. The attempt to "control" deviant believers led to some significant curtailments of freedom of just about everything in that case.

Google the "Concordat of 1933" for some opinions.

John