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BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk
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BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk |
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Subject: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: GUEST Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:33 AM If you've caught the uplifting news re Microsoft softpeddaling (but not expurgating) the history of Turkey's slaughter of Armenians in 1915; If you think this is a tempest in a teapot and irrelevant history; Then celebrate today's history factoid:
In a speech of August 22, 1939, to settle others' silly fears of some future retribution for genocide: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:27 PM I missed this--can you post a link? Over the years, journalists who have dared to mention this rather black episode of history, as well as private citizens who have made public statements about it, and even teachers who have tried to discuss it in school,have found themselves subject to all sorts of peculiar pressures to withdraw, recant, and even appologize!!!! Franz Werfel made himself a hero to all Armenians when he published his book "40 Days at Musa Dagh" which told the story that no one else was willing to tell-- The Turks have been useful Allies to the West, and our government has bent over backwards to accomodate their particular sensitivites on this issue, even when the intimidation and harrassement of American Citizens has been involved-- At any rate, I have nothing against Turkey--in fact, I am a great promoter of Turkish culture--but I am not blind to history, and I am not blind to current events, either--there are many wrongs that have not been acknowledged, and many that still continue-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Jeri Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:00 PM I saw a show on the History Channel here recently about a race riot in Tulsa, Oklahoma in 1921. Seems like we have our own attempts at genocide here in the US. Story here. What is remarkable is that this event was a virtual war - an entire city was destroyed and possibly thousands killed, this is the first time to my knowledge that bombs from aircraft were used, and the TV show was the first I'd ever heard of it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Jim the Bart Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:19 PM It's not just a question, as the old bromide says, of the winners determining what's history; skillful manipulation of "History" can help determine the winners. That's why I really hate the casual selection and bending of facts by our news outlets (both print and broadcast)to create or follow a story line. It makes it to easy to paper-over events and distort the public record. Every lie counts and every silence speaks volumes when extended out along the timeline of History. Yes, Hitler knew it. And he has lot's of company. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: paddymac Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:25 PM There was an event similar to the Tulsa riot in Florida, at a community called Rosewood (i think). The state legislature took it up a few years ago and awarded compensation to existing survirors. In the states we seem accustomed to thinking about such things in terms of skin color, but the real issue is one of ethnic divides, not race in the biological sense. The media and people of Britain & Ireland (and maybe other europeans, but I can not speak with certinty) use the word race as a synonym for "ethnic". Witness the events in Northern Ireland. The only difference I see between there now and the american south of 40 or so years ago is sahdes of color between the oppressed and the oppressor. Here it was black & white; there it is orange and green. And of course, there are the tribal atrocities of Africa, and the recent ('80s} governmental genocide against the highland Maya of Guatemala. It happens all over the world, and all through time. The concern ought to be to find a way to make it stop. I mentioned here before that a Professor acquaintance defined apartheid as "a part of the struggle for advantage." Seems to me the best way to prevent such struggle might be for governments to assure that all their citizens, as a start, are actually treated equally before the law (i.e.; take away the notion of racial or ethnic advantage). That's what law is supposed to be about, but it doesn't always work that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: SINSULL Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:00 PM Guest, You would be hardput to find a single country on the face of this earth which has not been responsible for some form of massacre/genocide. Some recipients: Viet Nam, Nanking, Bosnia, Tibet, all of Eastern Europe, the Middle East, native Americans,and on and on and on. Correct me if I am wrong but Canada was the site of the only Inquisitional auto-de-fa in the New World. Rape and murder appear to be regular activities of soldiers in war who then come home to their families and leave the horror of what they have done behind them. Historians, either at government instruction or with a bias based on their own beliefs fall short of telling the truth. In Egypt, offending royalty found them selves summarily scratched off their tombs. Stalin was not mentioned in Russian history books for years. Without trying to belittle the fate of Armenia, I have to ask why are you making this an issue here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:24 PM I can't answer for "GUEST", but over the years, a lot of my "folk music" involvement has been connected with folk musicians and other traditional artists and the communities that they are a part of. Let me assure you that the sense of loss resulting from the the series of massacres of Armenians in the the last decades of the Ottoman Empire is a central focus in every Armenian community, as is the knowledge that there is a widespread effort to restrict discussion of the events. Armenian traditions, such as music, dance, and folk and foodways, are ways that these communities keep alive the memory of a culture and a society that was nearly obliterated--so, in that way, this subject is really is directly related to folk music-- The Armenian holocausts involved the death of millions of people--some estimates put the numbers even above the Nazi Holocausts. If they had been widely remembered, maybe...well, anyway, I don't fault anyone who brings up something that it is good not to forget...
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: SINSULL Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:12 PM Yes, MTed, I agree. But the same is true of a hundred other countries. One of the saddest moments of my life was when I stood in the market place in Lhasa and realized that thge ONLY person there between the ages of 8 and maybe 25 was a crippled boy, prostrating himself before a shrine. They were all dead or aborted. I started to cry. I guess my question is what is our guest's connection with Armenia? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Irish sergeant Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:04 PM Santayana (SP?) said "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." Very wise words. How many remember that while Hitler was slaughtering the Jews of Europe he was also murdering the Gypsies? We see people dragged to death behind trucks because of their skin color, people bombed because of their reliogious affiliation and whole cities gassed because of their ethnic background. I think our guest has valid concerns. Have we truly learned the lessons of the second world war? Until we do and don't forget them, Armenia and all other countries will live with the spectre of genocide. May we cure it with music and brotherly love. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: SINSULL Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:31 PM If by "We" you mean the world, it's all too obvious that we've learned nothing. This is the one topic that makes me feel old and frustrated. I wonder if a single week has gone by in the last 300 years during which a wholesale slaughter over race or land hasn't taken place somewhere in the world? Or even in the past 3000 years? And yet people dread the annihilation of the human race. Naive but true: The only way to ensure that this sort of genocide does not take place again is for the Armenians to forgive the Turks and the Turks to forgive Armenian crimes against them. And the same throughout the world. Not in my lifetime but there it is. Not forget but forgive. Now I find it hard to forgive a neighbor for pulling a lot of petty BS on me and mine or shovelling snow into my parking space. How do you forgive the murder of a parent, the rape of a wife or mother or sister, the total destruction of a way of life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: MichaelAnthony Date: 22 Aug 00 - 07:38 PM The recent Rwanda genocide really bothers me. I think the US and other countries were hesitant to intervene for political reasons, ...and also possibly racial discriminatory reasons. If this were happening on another continent, would intervention have occurred? And this was not a "removed" genocide, but hand to body with machetes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: GUEST Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:48 PM M.Ted: It was a TV story with interviews with Encarta (MS online encyclopedia) staff. Seems Turkey objcted to any mention of the slaughter and MS told Encarta to delete it. They revolted and a much watered-down version was permitted to go through. The story was well done, not at all yellow. I couldn't find any reference in any of the online newspapers today but I'm sure it will appear shortly. Deja gave me the following from Theodor Ziakas at alt.culture.armenian. The answers are extending there. This may give the links to the newsgroup articles clicky -- Chronicle of Higher Education Reveals Official Turkish Threats Against On-Line I don't know if the "Chronicle" is online. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Brendy Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:02 PM "It was early springtime And the strike was on....." B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Micca Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:14 AM Like many I have only a hazy knowledge of the Armeniann massacres by the Turks in 1915 , mostly from reading about the ramifications of WW1 but it is simply and example of the kind of intoleraence often promoted or allowed to happen even now for a few examples of present day fostering of this kind of climate see here Click here and hereClick here and hereClick here
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Amergin Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:26 AM Here in the US, the state also sanctioned another form of genetic "cleansing". They would take kids from their homes who were deemed mentally retarded or unfit in other ways. They would force them to live their lives in hospitals and when the kids turned 18 force (or heavily persuade) them to sign a form permitting the doctors to sterilise them, so the kids couldn't breed and spread their "defective" seed to future generations.... A little similar to Australia's Lost Generation....maybe some one here will be willing to clarify that one for me....I only know the barest of details..... Amergin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Kim C Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:34 PM Remember that during WWII, our own government put American citizens in "internment camps" just because they happened to be of Japanese descent. Even though I had taken honors history in high school, I did not learn about this until I was an adult. I did not know anything about the Armenian genocide until today. Here's another instance of fact manipulation. A couple of years ago, when VW re-released the Beetle, our local paper did a huge story on the history of the Beetle but somehow neglected to say that it was originally Hitler's idea. Hmm. Being into living history, we run into this sort of thing all the time. Facts can be like statistics - twisted, manipulated and reshaped to make them palatable and believable. Research is an ongoing process and whenever someone comes up with new discoveries, they're labeled "revisionist," especially if their new information negates popularly held beliefs. History is a funny thing. It's full of ugliness. There's no way around that. That's one fact that I don't think can be denied, though people try to do it all the time. |
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Subject: Volkswagen - Hitler's Idea? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:35 PM Well, to say that the Volkswagen was originally Hitler's idea may be giving Hitler more credit than he is due. Professor Ferdinand Porsche was the one who was primarily responsible for the development of the Volkswagen. In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer does say that the Volkswagen ("The People's Car") was a "brainstorm of the Fuehrer himself": Every German, or at least every German workman, (Hitler) said, should own an automobile, just as in the United States. Heretofore in this country where there was only one motorcar to every fifty persons (compared to one in every five in America), the workman used a bicycle or public transportation to get about. Now Hitler decreed that a car should be built for him to sell for only 990 marks - $396 at the official rate of exchange. He himself, it was said, took a hand in the actual designing of the car, which was done under the supervision of the Austrian automobile engineer Dr. Ferdinand Porsche.So, was Hitler responsible for the Volkswagen, or was it just a monumental plan to fleece the German worker with the dream of a "People's Car"? I guess that depends on your perspective. As for perspective on the Armenian genocide, it's a subject that is discussed often in newspapers here in California, always from a viewpoint that is sympathetic to the Armenian cause. I've never heard of any attempt made here to suppress information about the genocide. There are many large and prosperous Armenian communities in California - maybe that's why. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Kim C Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:09 PM You're right Joe, I was not specific enough. At any rate the newspaper article in question did not mention that Porsche was working for the Reich, which I thought was an interesting omission. What was actually going on in Hitler's squirmy little brain, I can't say for sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:47 AM Joe--The Turkish government has tried to excercise pressure everywhere that it can--contact the Armenian Association in your area and I am sure they will be able to give you more details. Meanwhile--let us try to remember the holocausts--the first in this millenium having been the slaughter of the more than a million Albigensians in Southern France at the beginning about 1209, by Simon De Montfort and the Dominicans, and touted in the song "Dominique". In one instance, they burned an entire village, killing all the inhabitants, some of whom were Albigensian heretics, but most of whom were non-heretical catholics. De Montfort seems to have been told that there were many Catholics in the village, his response/ "Kill them all, God will sort them out." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Mbo Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:51 AM I thought the Albeginsians were snuffed out by King Phillip The Fair? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:57 AM SINSULL - I believe you are absolutely right. The only real solution is to forgive...not forget, but forgive. We need to know about the things that happened, digest it and feel what it meant to the victims...and then forgive. Virtually every nation or ethnic group in existence has perpetrated atrocities on someone else at one time or another, and it can only stop when people decide to turn the other cheek and stop the cycle of hatred and revenge. Justice is fine. Mercy is finer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Mbo Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:59 AM You're forgiven, but not forgotten... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:32 PM That was the Knights Templar, Meebo, Friday October 13, 1307. It is said though, that there were links between the Albigensians and the Templars. I have to say a couple things here, first of all, there is a difference between committing genocide and committing atrocities, and though it may be true that atrocities are often committed, genocides are not-- The next thing is that genocide is not a an irrational, emotional act and not the product of the cycle of hatred and revenge. It is always a planned and carefully orchestrated activity, with clear objectives, usually the acquisition of property, and entails the systenatic elimination of a competing, autonomous ethnic/religious culture that co-exists with the "dominant" or empowered culture. Genocides are always conceived and executed at the highest levels of power, by presidents, popes, Kings, and their respective high commands. The are not a product of "the mob" although the perpetrators make great efforts to make it appear that they are. Racism and bigotry are tools that the powerful create and use to muster the support that they need to carry their programs out--Racial tensions and bigotry, even when they result in violence, are not enough to result in a genocide--there have to be opportunistic leaders who deliberately exacerbate the tensions, and then direct the crowds to do their will--
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Mbo Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM BAck to the original post. Is GUEST insinuating the Microsoft is bent on genocide? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 24 Aug 00 - 12:54 PM I went to the link, and, as I had guessed, the Turkish gov't made threats to Microsoft and the authors, if they so much as mentioned the Armenians. Even the watered down mention is regarded as being defiant, since it still annoys the Turks. This was written about, incidentally, in "The Chronicle of Higher Education". I have often wondered how the State Department responds to this sort of activity, which essentially is of a foreign government attempting to supress free speech in this country.
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: Abby Sale Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM Mbo: No, of course not. M.Ted: I don't know if they did or not. True, no evidence as yet. I'm sure MS felt their interests were at risk. Here's what I posted to r.m.f this morning and it's all I know: I wish I'd taken notes on the TV program, but I didn't. The interviews were with the various editors-writers. As I recall they were asked to drop all references to the slaughter by the encyclopedia owner, MS. MS had been threatened by Turkey which has officially denied any part of it. Usual stuff. (Sorry to preach but the outrage isn't against Turkey for doing the kind of deep shit many governments do - it's against MS for doing it for money) Supposedly MS employees in Turkey would be harassed at least. More likely it was a wink-wink-nudge-nudge. The writers rebelled and finally reached a compromised that the "incident" wouldn't be mentioned in the Turkey article and downplayed to one line in the Armenian article. FYI alt.culture.armenian ran many pieces on it at: http://www.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/qs.xp?ST=PS&svcclass=dnyr&firstsearch=yes&preserve=1&QRY=microsoft+turkey+armenian&defaultOp=AND&DBS=1&OP=dnquery.xp&LNG=english&subjects=&groups=&authors=&fromdate=august+15+2000&todate=&showsort=score&maxhits=25 including a quote from "Chronicle of Higher Education." The Chronicle seems to be reputable and is online but by subscription only. http://chronicle.com/ I reproduce that article below as it was quoted. BTW, the little I read at alt.culture.turkish was equally outraged. The humans there don't like lies or genocide either. Up the internet! In a related issue, I read an article in "The Watchtower" several years ago that utterly denied the charge as well and gave the usual supporting lying arguments. This was a matter of doctrine as much as church politics, considering the timing of the events and their timing of "end of days." I was stunned to see this and foolishly threw away the paper. Subsequent door-knockers have flatly denied knowledge of any such doctrine and have claimed to search "The Watchtower" back issues for me without finding it. I must leave that as it sits. But I can still picture the article. The Chronicle of Higher Education August 18, 2000 (page 20) "The Other Side of Genocide" Covering up genocide is a tricky business. Probably the best place to start is with the word itself. Coined in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany's systematic murder of millions, it's since been disputed in nearly every other usage, from the U.S. government's early waffling on whether Rwanda's Hutu annihilation of the Tutsis qualified, to the Turkish government's continuing campaign to convince the world that several hundred thousand starved Armenians does not a genocide make. That's where Microsoft's Encarta comes in. Helen Fein, Executive Director of the Institute for the Study of Genocide, says the online encyclopedia almost helped deny the genocide. In 1996, Encarta asked Ms. Fein to write an entry on genocide. Her short essay, which included a brief mention of the murder or deportation of at least 1.1 million Armenians by the Turkish Ottoman government during World War I, was accepted and published. But this past June, Encarta called Ms. Fein and asked her to revise her entry, in response to "customer complaints." She learned that Ronald Grigor Suny, a political scientist at the University of Chicago and the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, had been asked to revise his entry on Armenia as well. Ms. Fein says Encarta wanted her to include a few lines on the "other side of the story" - the Turkish government's side, that is Mr. Suny says an Encarta editor named Frank Manning explained to him that the revision would leave the facts in place, but remove the word "genocide." "Their proposed changes suggested that all narratives are equal, that we can't know for sure whether or not the Armenians brought the massacres on themselves," says Ms. Fein. According to Mr. Suny, Mr. Manning told him that the Turkish government had threatened to arrest local Microsoft officials and ban Microsoft products unless the who, what, and why of the massacres were presented as topics open to debate. Microsoft representatives would neither confirm nor deny the threats, but Namik Tan, a spokesman for the Turkish Embassy called the charge "so ridiculous I cannot speak." He acknowledged that the embassy wrote at least two letters to Microsoft urging it to remove the term "genocide" from the two entries, and to cite Armenian rebellion as the cause of any suffering, but he insists that the Turkish government "does not make threats." When Ms. Fein and Mr. Suny threatened to remove their names from the article and to publicize Microsoft's censorship, however, Encarta editors backed down. Ms. Fein and Mr. Suny agreed to add that the Turkish government denies the genocide, but held firm to the facts of its occurrence. When the Chronicle attempted to reach Encarta's editors, a publicist from the company said they were all on vacation. A second publicist added that every story has two sides, even one about genocide. Indeed, Ms. Fein notes that the Encarta entry on Turkey, which is unsigned, still does not mention the Armenian genocide at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'happy,' not even Folk From: M.Ted Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:13 AM Thanks for posting this, Abby-- Michael Arlen's "Passage to Ararat" includes a good accounting of the overall efforts against the Armenians--my recollections are hazy, since I read it years ago, but there is a particularly moving account of "death marches"-- It is true that, in the siege described in "40 Days at Musa Dagh" the Armenians attempted to defend themselves, but many had died before that-- |