BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib

Subject: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:42 AM

Coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture.

Iraq's Child Prisoners

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:39 AM

It would be interesting to know if there's been any more news on this since when the article was published in 01 August 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:30 PM

Sounds more like a concentration camp than a prison... held for indefinite periods of time with no charges brought against them... no due process... torture and sexual abuse. I, too, would like to know if there has been any more written about this situation since last August.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:42 PM

I checked the UNICEF 2005 report on children - there is no mention of Abu Ghraib there. But the BBC said this a week ago.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:04 PM

From the above link, "I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent civilians," she said Maj Gen Wodjakowski told her. "We're winning the war."

...and they wonder why there are insurgents!

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

Sieg Heil

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: DougR
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:56 PM

Horse Pucky.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:00 PM

from last week's BBC article, Doug:

Friday, 11 March, 2005, 11:32 GMT

US held youngsters at Abu Ghraib

The US military says no children suffered abuse at Abu Ghraib
Children as young as 11 years old were held at Abu Ghraib, the Iraqi prison at the centre of the US prisoner abuse scandal, official documents reveal. Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, formerly in charge of the jail, gave details of young people and women held there. Her assertion was among documents obtained via legal action by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

The Pentagon has admitted juveniles were among the detainees, but said no child was subject to any abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM

You really don't think this kind of thing happens, do you Doug?

Fair enough - so long as you do not agree with that general who doesn't think it what is done, providing the war is being won. Because that is the way the Nazis thought, and it is one reason why they lost.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM

Older story here--it's not like no one knows--except maybe in North America

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:49 PM

Guest, I apologize. I just duplicated the post with which you started this thread. Mea culpa.

'nother

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:17 PM

Terrible situation, but hardly new news. For example, this is from the AP, via ABC News and this is an
audio file from National Public Radio.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:57 AM

Yup. DougR cares more about plausible deniability and covering up abuses than he does about ensuring that these things don't happen. As long as we don't know about it, we can't be held responsible, right? (*nudge nudge, wink wink*.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:58 AM

I think probably Doug actually does think that Americans don't do that kind of thing. The same way there were people in Serbia and Bosnia who persuaded themselves that Srbrenica wasn't really as bad as was claimed. "I mean, our people aren't like that..."

And if there hadn't been the pictures of Abu Ghraib...

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:47 PM

I might agree with you, McGrath, if, on other occasions, such as when the Abu Ghraib pictures became public, DougR hadn't shifted from his denial stance to a stance of trying to brush off and/or justify the abuse. He doesn't care if stuff like this happens. He only cares whether or not his guys get caught doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:31 PM

Yes, there are child prisoners, starving children and there are children who were denied medical care in the assault of Fallujah. Eventually, the U.S. will be held accountable for this and for the use of chemical weapons.

Unfortunately, the people who voted for Bush will not take any responsibility for these actions. They will probably claim that they knew nothing about it or that it was somehow justified.

Bush accused Saddam of the same atrocities that are now being committed by the U.S. military. Bush had no proof of Saddam's W.M.D. but when the truth is uncovered, we will have plenty of evidence that napalm-like firebombs were used on the citizens of Fallujah.

SHAME!

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

"Eventually, the U.S. will be held accountable for this and for the use of chemical weapons."

I disagree with this statement. I think the US is above the law and I think its Executive Branch will NEVR be held accountable. Hell, they make the laws and appoint the judges; they control FEMA; own the military.

No, they won't ever be held accountable, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

Carol C: a challenge to you! Please direct us to any thread on the Mudcat where I have condoned prisoner abuse.

McGrath: of course I know Americans are capable of cruelty and abuse to others. I do believe that the majority of Americans denounce such treatment although it is evident that it did go on at Abu Gharaib.

Like some others, however, I do not jump on the U. S. as being the only offender, and I do not blame the U. S. for all of the ills of the world.

There may have been child prisoners at Abu Ghraib, I don't know with any more certainty that you folks do. You drag up some opinion piece from a publication that supports your POV and expect everyone to accept it just as you do. It is conceivable also, that children who may have committed crimes in Iraq SHOULD have been in Abu Ghraib. Some children DO commit crimes, right?

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM

Carol C: a challenge to you! Please direct us to any thread on the Mudcat where I have condoned prisoner abuse.

Okie dokie, DougR. But when I do, I won't ever expect to see you on the thread again to admit culpability. That's something I have never seen you do.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:26 PM

brucie - I would hope that, considering the international outcry against the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the international community will hold the U.S. responsible and history will judge them.

I do not think the U.S. is all-powerful. I think that people are more powerful. Lets not forget that 50% of the U.S. population is not greater than the majority of people in this world that condemn the actions of the U.S. in Iraq. Internationally, the U.S. will be the big losers in this one.

Since Iraq, new international alliances have been formed to protect them from the aggressor. Powerful alliances like China and India not to mention Russia, Iran and Syria will punish the U.S. economically. The U.S. was once the envy of all countries, it is now hated and feared. The world will take every step necessary to marginalize the U.S.

Its not easy to, "Go it alone" in the world. They have isolated themselves from international opinion and lied to their citizens.

...and DougR - what country imprisons children because they have may have committed crimes? Most civilized places at least give their children the benefit of courts and judges.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:36 PM

"brucie - I would hope that, considering the international outcry against the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the international community will hold the U.S. responsible and history will judge them."

I would hope that, too. However, the winners get to write history. In the coming years, the losers will be exterminated.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:21 PM

Who ever said the US was "the only offender"? On the other hand there's some good advice about this kind of thing in St Matthew: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother�s eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

I'm sure that most Americans do deplore this kind of thing, but that can go along with denying that it happens until the evidence is too overwhelming. The photos of a few of the things that happened in Abu Ghraib achieved that - but nobody appears to have been fool enough to pass out photos of these other activities.

There is a ritual sequence of denial when evidence of of atrocities come to light. Sometimes it doesn't go through all the stages, because it gets kicked into touch and the media circus moves on. (Remember the wedding party in Iraq that was massacred? Or the one in Afghanistan before?)

The first stage is that it is denied that anything at all happened - it's all lies and fabrication.

The second stage, something did happen, but the whole thing has been distorted and exaggerate.

The third stage is to admit that the atrocity occurred, but place the blame entirely on low ranking individuals.

The fourth stage is to blame maverick rogue elements in command positions for acting in defiance of the rules.

The final stage is to admit it all happened, but by now it's a long time ago, and nothing like that could happen again because the system has been changed and the people have been shifted.

It only reaches the final stage when people dig their heels in and demand justice and the facts, and have the power to make that stick. "Bloody Sunday" is one case where that did happen, but it's a pretty rare instance.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:10 AM

Ok, DougR. This is what I said:

if DougR hadn't shifted from his denial stance to a stance of trying to brush off and/or justify the abuse.

And these posts are examples of what I was referring to...


This one is justification:

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR - PM
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:42 AM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.

Oh, I know, we shouldn't capture the enemy in the first place. We don't need intelligence, right? We should simply be Superman and leap over buildings.

Give me a break.


And this one is brushing off:

DougR
Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR - PM
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:26 AM

I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either. It was probably all over pretty quick for him, right? I wonder why the terrorists didn't do real damage to the poor young guy? They could have forced him to strip his clothes off or something! That would have been major torture!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:24 AM

Carol C: the first post does not prove your point, and the second one has nothing to do with your charge.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:41 AM

The first shows you trying to justify what has been defined as torture by human rights organizations, and if I'm not mistaken, also the Geneva Convention.

The second point is a brushing off. Instead of seeking to ensure that we are not guilty of the things we accuse others of, you justify what we do by saying that others are doing worse.

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM

Quoting the Geneva Convention is pointless. The USA has thrown it out of the window and effectively rendered it useless, and it is no longer relevant to use the GC as a guide as to how humans can be treated in captivity by the USA.

The troubling part of all this is what does the USA base it's moral stance on? What are the values it places on the life of any human, or on their rights as living people? Obviously the constitution means squat to those in charge, especially if you are not an American (and if you are and American - remember how the rednecks defended the rights of the Dixie Chicks to disagree with the war?). Calling a prisoner a 'Unlawful Combatant' is lawyer-speak and a method of further dehumanising the enemy, to make it easier to torture or kill them.

As for children, we cannot expect reasonable behaviour from the US abroad until their own house is in order at home:

Junvenille Death Penalty Cases (American Bar Association).

Subject: RE: BS: child prisoners in Abu Ghraib
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:03 PM

Sorr, Carol C, poor argument. Nowhere have I said I condone prisoner torture, and you know it. You just like to fling wild accusations and hope they stick.

DougR