BS: UK strange legal ways

Subject: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:09 PM

This would be funny but for the appalling nature of the crime involved.
The Moors Murders. A young couple abducted, tortured, raped murdered and buried a number of children. They buried them on moorland and some have never been found.
The woman is now dead, but the man has some photos which may help the families find the graves, but

The police can not get a warrant to search his cell.

Could this happen anywhere else?

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

UK Police are too soft, start chopping the bastards fingers off, he'd soon talk then.

I saw bits of the programme where this case was mentioned, [missed bits of it, as i was working]
The bloke is a convicted serial child killer, yet they can't search his sell or make him answer any questions [Human Rights Act].

There was a case recently, a man was convicted [he even admitted the offence], of having unlawful sex with a 12 year old girl, he got a conditional dishcharge [ie don't do it again, and we'll just let you off!]

Yet people are jailed for council tax arreaers!

I often wonder if judges are complete idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:27 PM

To make it a bit clearer what this is about Ian Brady murdered a few children, and buried their bodies on the Yorkshire Moors, the mum of one of the little boys he killed, wants to know where her son his buried , so she can have his body moved to a proper resting place, and he can be given a proper funeral.

Brady refuses to tell anyone where he is buried, he took photos of the burial spots of his victims, but the police have no right to see the photos.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: fat B****rd
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:37 PM

On this occasion , Sir J. I'm right with you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

I caught the whole programme jOhn, and filling in the gaps doesn't make it anymore palatable, but this was the gist of it.......

After Brady and Hindly were convicted in 1966 (?), 200 photos that were not thought to be linked to the murders, were returned to Hindley's mother. But at this time they were not suspected of Pauline Reades and Keith Bennetts murder.

Hindley then wrote numerous letters to her mother, each getting increasingly insistent, over a period of five years, asking for FIVE particular slides to be sent to her and ultimately Brady.

The letter that eventually swayed Hindley's mother to part with those five slides, told her that Brady would 'send someone around to collect them,'if they weren't forthcoming.

Nobody guessed the significance of those five slides, although you would have thought why just ask for five out of 200? And aren't these sort of things examined when they arrive at the prison? This all came to light after the death of Hindley in 2002, when her and her mothers letters were discovered.

By now, the police knew Hindley and Brady were probably guilty of Reades and Bennets murders too, but the D.P.P said it would be too costly to force a new trial, because technically it would be impossible to prove, and Brady is never going to be released anyway.

So they have no grounds for demanding the five slides be handed over. The police are sure they DO hold the clues of Keith's burial site and have attributed Brady's insistence at keeping them to him wanting to remain in control of the situation....ie he wins because he 'keeps' the body, in his twisted mind this is a victory.

They are currently using advanced image analysts to go over the photos they already have for new clues, and geologists are re-examining the rock formations in the photos, to try and pinpoint the locations, but the five slides that Brady has in his possesion are most likely the ones that hold all the clues and landmarks.

I imagine that it won't be until Brady dies that these five slides will be examined. Keith's brother still sounds like a broken man, all the family want is a decent resting place, and some sort of 'closure' to the whole affair...but it will take Brady's death to provide this. Let us hope it is sooner rather than later.

Sorry to have gone on and on, but the programme was so sad I couldn't really condense it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 07:41 PM

Civilization must have governments of laws and not of men. You need to pass some new laws and then chop his fingers off. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 07:46 AM

I saw the programme too. It's ridiculous the way the nanny state has taken over. Let me have ten minutes with Brady!

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:25 PM

Nothing much makes sense when you start thinking about these cases.

I suppose individually we have to be grateful that God hasn't made us into a monster who likes killing and torturing children.

Surely Brady's analysis and treatment cannot be completed until they have defused his fantasies by getting the bodies. As such there is a public interest issue here - which should override his civil rights as a prisoner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Chris Green
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 08:53 PM

I saw the programme. I have to say what struck me most was the dignity and resilience of Keith's brother. I hope to Christ he finds his brother as that's really the only revenge he's ever going to get on Brady and Hindley.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:39 AM

they should have hung the bastard years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:47 AM

Had they hung them, they would never have even the chance of finding the grave, the significance of those photos would have been missed because Hindley would not have been alive to ask her mother for those specific slides. Enforcing the death penalty on them both would have removed any chance at all of ever finding the missing graves or laying their other crimes at their doors.

Although it is a bit much that the human rights of a convicted criminal take precidence over the human rights of the children he murdered.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:56 AM

they should have said "tell us where the bodies are or we'll kill you" , after he'd told them, kill him anyway and say "aha! fooled you, we were only kidding"!

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 07:01 AM

There used to be an old system in England, before it was called England possibly, of declaring someone an 'outlaw' which meant they HAD no human rights, and were fair game for anyone.
Unfortunately it was abused and fell out of favour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Is it British law that's protecting his 'Human Rights', or is it another of those stupid rules forced down on us by the moaning French, Germans, Italians et al in Brussels/Strasbourg/wherever the self-serving EU clowns hang out?

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 06:13 PM

British. We seem to be perfectly capable of making up our own dopey laws without the aid of Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:00 AM

I hope some of you are talking tongue in cheek here.
They sound as if there was only the choice between prisoners' right above anything else and freely administered torture.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:57 AM

Wolfgang-I obviously can't speek for the others on this thread, but I assure you that all my posts on this thread were serious.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:00 AM

I don't know Wolfgang but I think someone who did what Brady did is likely to bring out strong and perhaps even irrational emotions in many of us. It is hard to accept someone who tortured and even taped his vicitms pleas for pleasure belongs to the same race, human, as you and I do.

That said, hard as it may be, I believe we should try to be decent ourselves. For me that would include protecting Brady from harm in prison and not exerting torture or other barbaric practices on him.

All that said, I do not believe a convicted crimanl should have the rights of protection to hide something like these photos or not to have his cell searched. I'd go along with the need to do things officially, ie get a warrant rather than dive in an kick the hell out of him demanding to see them but I'd think such a search warrant should be pretty much an automatic process.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:38 AM

Precisely, Jon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: sledge
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:38 AM

When it comes to preventing access to photo's that would possibly give peace of mind to families that have suffered for many years, then our laws have definately crossed the line and have become absurd in the protection of this miserable excuse for a human being.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM

No objection from me for searching his cell, house, pants, letters for to find evidence where the bodies may be found. No to physical harm.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: vectis
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

Surely they could get a warrant on the grounds of potential new evidence. Come on Shambles, give us the legal SP on this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
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Date: 22 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 11:15 PM

Incredible. Aren't cells periodically searched for weapons and contraband? Surely these photos could be turned up "accidentally" in a search.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 10:49 AM

As an American, and in a country whose legal system is based on that of England, I'm used to hearing what are apparently incredible positions and determinations, and I've got used to 'waiting for the other shoe to drop', in other words, waiting for that critical piece of information that makes the incredible stuff make sense, usually left out by the media in order to increase emotional response.

So as Guest,Jon says above, why isn't it possible to get that court order and inconvenience the prisoner only to the extent of getting reasonably suspected physical evidence away from him. You can do it to a free person in their own dwelling, why not to a prisoner? How does that infract on their human rights?

Incidentally, I know that France has a different base to its legal system, which is 'guilty until proven innocent'. I have heard from German news stories that there are considerable legal protections to human rights, but I'm curious as to what its historical base is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:25 AM

I think that because The Director of Public Prosecutions has said that they would not consider trying Brady for the two 'unsolved' murders, there are no grounds legally to obtain the five slides.
His reasons were the cost involved plus the fact that Brady is never going to be released anyway.

Brady himself has asked never to be considered for release, and I think he may have gone on hunger strike before, but the court of Human Rights insisted on him being force fed, bit hazy on that though.

Maybe there is a time scale issue too, I don't know if there is any legality barring a prosecution due to the time lapsed between the murders and now.

But the fact remains that those five slides are not technically evidence, as there is no prosecution and unlikely to be one brought.

Hopefully Bennetts brother will outlive Brady, and then discover his brothers grave once the slides are examined, so as to provide a proper burial. A sad tale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM

Considering how many people have been convicted of murder in the past twenty or thirty years and have subsequently been found to have been innocent after all (while the real murderer is still free, remember), it's a good job they don't hang 'em any more. On the whole, I think it's better that the guilty should go free than that the innocent should be locked up. But don't think I've got any sympathy for Brady: I haven't.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK strange legal ways
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 23 Sep 04 - 12:27 PM

In Scotland we have an unequike Pardon the spelling, where we have three verdicts, Guilty, not Guilty and Not Proven. Not Proven means that person on trail is found not proven means they are set free however there are doubts as to weather they had done the crime or not.
Scots Law is based on Roman law.
We have a jury of 15 people and sometimes we have tryals where 3 judges sit and listen to the lawyers.
we don't have crimnial courts we have sherriff courts and we don't call them judges we call them sherriffs, and we have a people call the proticatr fiscal, and unlike England if anything goes on in Scotland we have an enquray.