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BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Donuel Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:08 PM In cool and calm tones I remind you that our greatest journalists, generals, cabinet members and historians are in agreement that rash nuclear reactions by one man (who is never wrong and always great) is a real and present danger. The world will understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:56 PM "rab·id. . ['rab?d, 'rab?d] ADJECTIVE 1.having or proceeding from an extreme or fanatical support of or belief in something. "the show's small but rabid fan base" · [more] synonyms: extreme · fanatical · overzealous · over-enthusiastic · extremist · violent · [more] 2.(of an animal) affected with rabies. synonyms: rabies-infected · mad · foaming at the mouth · hydrophobic" ..................................................... extreme · fanatical · overzealous · over-enthusiastic mad · foaming at the mouth Sounds like a factual description of some of the Left ( NOT liberal) posters here. IMO But, giving Jim the benefit of the doubt, I will allow that he has probably been vaccinated. So I will NEVER use "Rabid Left"- just "Left-wing morons" from now on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Iains Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:06 PM Having been accused of being "a mental midget that talks down to people" then those that dispute my every post must by their own definition be leftwing and by Jim's definition moronical. How else could I talk down to them? Who am I to argue? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:16 PM Says Gillymor: ""People who object to the term "rabid liberals" might want to reconsider their use of the term "right wing morons"..." You raise an interesting point. How then would you prefer to denote the What degree of "toleration" should be shown to racists, fascists, criminal misogynists, white supremacists, Islamaphobes, "victimized"(yeah right) white men and the rest of the clowns who support and enable Trump and the absolute shithole that the Republican Party has devolved into? I'm sure we could all use some suggestions to factor into our reconsideration. Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM Nothing to disagree with there, Jon. Gillymor and BB. I do not use the term 'right wing moron'. Nor do any number of people of my acquaintance on here. In fact, I don't know who does use it. By far the most insulting term I have seen on here, only used by someone on the right, is 'leftard'. Not only insulting to anyone left of centre but a vile use of a slur on mental disorders. That this is left unpunished is an indication of the liberties that the right will take. Terms like that would result in someone being ejected from most folk clubs and as this is a folk forum I am surprised that they get away with it. But my premise here is that Mudcat as a folk forum, in general, leans towards the left and liberalism. Maybe that is why the right wing conservatives in here are so vociferous and feel that they must challenge everything? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:35 PM Mossback, How then would you prefer to denote the ignorant idiots - excuse me, folks - who firmly believe the documented and provable lies, distortions and bullshit that are regularly vomited forth by the Democrats and anti-fa that live and revel in a fact-free environment oblivious to reality? What degree of "toleration" should be shown to racists, fascists, criminal misogynists, "victimized" white women and the rest of the clowns who supported and enabled Clinton and the absolute shithole that the Democratic has devolved into? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:47 PM "a mental midget that talks down to people" That was when you frst appeared on the scene and you began to talk down to people We were warned to stop by Joe everybody toned down our behaviour, you chose to persist and you have ever since You've just compared me to "Hitler" - and now "moronic", yet you accuse us of behaving badly to you In your defence, with the exception of Joe, all the other complainants have behaved exactly as you have (hough joe's recent comments have been somewhat disappointing) We all go over the top on occasion - you have ben there from day one - simple matter to check - your serial abusiveness (literally many hundreds of examples) has been archived for all to see Finished with this as has been suggested many times For the record - my own personal views are leftist humanitarian - I'm not te anti-semite the complainants have accused me of being (and my offer of a generous donation to any named charity for any example has never been taken up by them I'm not a red-flag-waving barricade stormer (not since my teens) I simply believe that the world has become a very shitty place due to the growing gap between the haves and have nots and that State politics has now degenerated to blaming the poor and foreigners for its own failings If that makes me an intolerant fanatic, fine - there are a lot more like me (I wish !!) As far as this forum is concerned - I do not believe that it should be allowed as a soapbox for hate and intolerance, as it all-too-often is It never used toio be - them upstairs rooted out those who used it as such Now were did all those flowers go ? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: gillymor Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:52 PM Check out Jim's post of 05:31 AM. In his attempt to refute Joe Offer he made Joe's case in the same breath. Re trump, I see him as the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War and have no respect for his supporters but, as I inferred in my last post, incivility begets incivility, and that's from a (somewhat) reformed nasty person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:58 PM My posting ""rabid liberals " - is an oxymoron used by right wing morons to defend extremism as far as I'm concern I have to say I'm surprised at a mod using the term to attack members of this forum - wonder if he'll close the thread down!" How does that make joe's point please ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:08 PM Interesting, Gillymor - but you didn't address either of my questions. Incidentally, its patently obvious from past performance that members of the Trumpist Cult from the Liar In Chief on down do not need any goading or excuse to be "incivil" (which woefully understates their hateful rhetoric)- it comes to them naturally. And beardedbruce 10 Oct 18 - 01:35 PM has kindly demonstrated exactly what sort of "folks" I referenced at 01:16 PM. Thank you, Bruce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: gillymor Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:13 PM It's simple, "Right Wing Morons" is the kind of term that emanates from the keyboard of "Rabid Liberal". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: gillymor Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:15 PM Mossback, I'll get back to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Iains Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:15 PM "You've just compared me to "Hitler" - and now "moronic", Oh Dear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:26 PM Thread #165019 Message #3955854 Posted By: Steve Shaw 10-Oct-18 - 09:34 AM Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
There is no trolling here, not by any definition of trolling that I've ever seen. Thread #165019 Message #3955855 Posted By: Jim Carroll 10-Oct-18 - 09:34 AM Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
My thoughts exactly And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:38 PM Right-wing attitudes: "Big business, especially multinational big business, is all-powerful and democratically unaccountable but can be relied on to uphold the economy. If they exploit resources and pollute the planet, taxpayer money will help to clear up the mess. Banks must be permitted to engineer ways of making vast profits without supervision, as the profit motive is crucial to the country, and bankers will do best if they are amply rewarded with large bonuses, irrespective of performance. If they fail, taxpayer money is always there to bale them out, and so it should. The wealthy and powerful are the responsible people in society who know how to run things and should be allowed, unfettered, to do so. The gap between rich and poor must be maintained at all costs, as otherwise the rich will lose incentive and the poor will have nothing to aspire to. The poor are poor largely through their own doing, unwilling to work hard and showing lack of enterprise. We can't actually let them starve but they have no right to expect the lifestyle that the more entrepreneurial among us (as well as the deserving inheritors of wealth) enjoy. They've had their chances and it's not our fault they didn't take them. It is morally justified to have two-tier systems of health provision and education. After all, if you have the money to jump the queue for medical care or grab privileges for your own children, well why shouldn't you? Isn't that 'freedom of choice?' We will support all efforts to promote patriotism and will strive to keep out foreigners, especially those of strange ethnicity." ........................................... If you vote for the Tories or for Trump, or even for Obama or Tony Blair, these are the principles you're voting for. If you understand that point, and vote that way anyway, then right-wing moron is too good an expression for you, though voting for Obama or Blair may let you off the hook if you earnestly believe that you're going for the least of the evils on offer and are trying to keep out the worst of the worst. My grandad, who worked all his life in Salford docks, voted Tory because the man in the pulpit told him to. He didn't understand what he was voting for. I know that because I knew him pretty well (and loved him to bits). During elections, most of these things are hidden from the electorate and it's a damn certainty that most people who vote Tory don't get them. Those people are uninformed but they are not morons. I've tried to be measured though I'm sure I'm riling some people. No doubt we'll get a definition of "the other side" from someone or other. It's worth remembering though that most people who vote for left-wing parties are voting according to principle, misguided or not, even if that just means that they recognise the above list of points and are voting to oppose them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:39 PM Whatever point your post was making is completely lost on me, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:40 PM "And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here." -Joe Offer- Well, Mr. Offer, if I may be so bold, you think wrong. A large number of REAL U.S. Conservatives of many years if not decades of standing have come out in opposition to the Trumpist Cult and its lies, excesses, racism and idiocies. "Conservatives" and "Trumpists" are a difference in KIND, not in degree. And although I haven't been here all that long, the latter seem to get a great deal more consideration than they deserve on this forum. IMHO Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: peteglasgow Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM joe - why is it 'brave' of conservatives who 'dare' to post on here? i'm sure they feel they have a point to make and are happy to make it. if theresa may is pursuing a vigorous hostile attitude towards migrants is she 'brave' to send out her 'go home or face arrest' vans? is d trump brave to praise all the good people among neo-fascists etc etc . i would agree it is good if someone expresses an unusual opinion if they are prepared to argue for it sensibly and to treat people who counter that argument with respect. but that is not what we are talking about here. you don't have to be brave to post a view on here - this is a very safe and comfortable forum - where we are all well trained to expect just what we get from each other |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM "And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here." You sre making the abusers victims Joe All those who have complained have been excessively abusive to those who disagree with them I won't name them, (already have done) but I will do so if necessary - and provide examples When I gathered together about forty examples from one single thread and posted it up you chose to ignore it (I actually did this on four different occasions - I never once had to duplicate an example - and I never got to using more than half of them) - that particular individual continues to be personally abusive while, at the same time, complains about being bullied by lefties You can see from a few postings up how he responds to being confronted wby his abusive postings - but just in case: "Oh Dear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Your posting here makes you an abuser, if only an occasional one. Trolling, as I understand it, is posting (usually short) opinions and refusing to get involved in debate - sort of like graffiti or fly-posting Not how I regard discussing Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:28 PM Excellent, Pete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Tattie Bogle Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:48 PM As Jack has said, precious little on here about differences within the current UK: last Saturday's March for Independence (All Under One Banner, so NOT just SNP) was tangibke proof that "there is no appetite for independence" is a total myth! People still arguing over how many actually marched, but take it from me and Jack, who both did, it was MASSIVE! For 2 whole hours, more and more people processed from Edinburgh Castle to Holyrood Park. A huge motorcade of bikers followed, and people were strung out all over Salisbury Crags and Arthur's Seat. And a huge feeling of being joined in a single aim and positivity. Sure, it might be a huge gamble to try to survive outwith the UK, but it's a risk worth taking in the current and foreseeable climate. Contrast if you will, feelings towards Westminster and Brexit non-happenings. Just total disbelief at how the country is not being run properly. Who for next PM. Theresa May again? No! Jeremy Corbyn? No! Boris Johnson? No! Michael Gove? No! Santa Claus? Maybe..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM I don't understand your point either, Joe. Steve said there was no trolling. Jim agreed. You seem to imply that it meant no trolling from the left. They said no such thing, just that there was no trolling. End of story. You all seem to be in agreement. What am I missing? I still say that everyone is accepted here. Even their views, and often their abuse, are tolerated. A far cry from "people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Stanron Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM I still say that everyone is accepted here. Even their views, and often their abuse, are tolerated. A far cry from "people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here". Have you ever called for moderators to delete someones posts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:12 PM I don't understand your point either, Joe. Now, again, I'm a newbie here but certain trends are hard to dismiss. Mr. Offer's point seems to be that some folks on this forum constitute a protected class and can post whatever garbage they choose to without recrimination, whilst others, not so favored, can be panned or banned for whatever ludicrous infractions can be invented and attributed to them. Very strange. But an interesting example of cognitive dissonance. HEIL TRUMP !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Iains Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:19 PM Mr. Offer's point seems to be that some folks on this forum constitute a protected class and can post whatever garbage they choose to without recrimination, whilst others, not so favored, can be panned or banned for whatever ludicrous infractions can be invented and attributed to them. YUP!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:22 PM Pete Aberdeen asks: "joe - why is it 'brave' of conservatives who 'dare' to post on here?" As shown in the next post from Jim Carroll, any conservative who dares to post here, is going to be bludgeoned into a pulp by angry self-righteous liberals (who don't call themselves liberals in Britain). And that same angry mob will scream about how terrible it is that Mudcat allows such horrid people to post. Some of that mob have even threatened legal action through the British authorities for what Mudcat "allows" people to say. And I shake my head and say, don't these people have a life? But I have to admit that the conservatives/Trumpists (except for beardedbruce) are usually reasonable nice about what they say, even though I don't like their ideas. But the angry horde on the left are embarrassing, because I more-or-less think I'm on their side. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:28 PM Mossback says:
"Conservatives" and "Trumpists" are a difference in KIND, not in degree. Well, if that's the case, there must not be any REAL conservatives on the Republican side of the U.S. Senate, because only Lisa Murkowski voted against Trump's lackey last week. Almost all the Republicans in both houses of the U.S. Congress have sided again and again with Trump and his racism and nativism and fiscal hooliganism and whatnot. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:37 PM Dave the Gnome says: I don't understand your point either, Joe. Steve said there was no trolling. Jim agreed. You seem to imply that it meant no trolling from the left. They said no such thing, just that there was no trolling. End of story. You all seem to be in agreement. What am I missing? My point is that if Jim and Steve say there is no trolling, I agree. But I don't think either present or banished conservative Mudcatters have been trolling, either. They say what they believe, and not for the sake of trolling. Jim and Steve and I may not like their ideas, but I think our conservative counterparts here have been reasonably civil in expressing their thoughts - far more so than the embarrassingly angry mob on the left. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:45 PM Sorry Joe. I was taught not to let bullies, even when backed by majority opinion, get away with abuse- I give them back what they give to me. So that makes me a troll, according to one mod here that stated no posted clicky was valid, or had worthwhile data unless that person agreed with what it presented. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:49 PM Almost all the Republicans in both houses of the U.S. Congress have sided again and again with Trump and his racism and nativism(sic) and fiscal hooliganism and whatnot. Absolutely. Mr Offer and you've just validated my point - They're a gang of pieces of shit that should be expelled from any governing body that concerns itself with dignity, reality and morality. Now, look at the pantheon of conservatives who are NOT the Trumpist sycophantic ass-licking gutless wonders in the House and Senate who have expressed their negative opinions on this Trumpist horror show and you might actually learn something. Educate yourself- or simply admit you're a Trumpist cultist. Either way, fine with me, but be honest. OK? Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:16 PM Huh? Well, certainly I'm not a "Trumpist cultist." And I do have to admit that, despite their majority in both houses, the Republicans have passed very little of the Trump agenda other than confirming his appointments. So perhaps there are some Republicans left with a shred of integrity - but most of those are leaving Congress and retiring this year. So, what's your point, Bill? But then I wonder again about those on the left at Mudcat. I thought people on the left were supposed to be advocates for immigrants and refugees, for the poor and homeless, and for workers. Do leftists at Mudcat actually do any of that advocacy? Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor? Or do they just spend their time on the Internet, talking about how horrible those on the right are?Maybe I'm hopelessly idealistic, but I think that people on the left should actually be working for peace and human rights, not just bludgeoning right-wingers. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:49 PM Per Mr. Offer: So, what's your point, Bill? The point is that you are in fact a Trump cultist if you are willing to overlook and condone the utter bullshit the Trumpists spew. This is not a contest between "liberal" and "conservative" but a the difference between between reality and utter fantasy. If you cannot see this, you have apparently gone over heart & soul to the Trumpist fantasists. God help AmeriKKKa. Bil Grounded in reality |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Donuel Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:12 PM Mossback, Joe is a unique mix of opinions like letting bear claw national monument get privatized and supporting civil conservatives all the while condemning the massive hoardes of rebellious left wing mobs (which are mostly women). But he recognizes and respects diversity. Do not envy his jobs. They are hard and often thankless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:16 PM My God, what a mire this conversation has gotten itself into (sorry, Brits - I love to "go Yankee" every now and again). Let's try to wash away the mud and clear up one or two things. First, Joe and especially Jeri (why ARE you a mod, Jeri?), a troll is a person who posts provocatively with the SOLE PURPOSE of provoking an emotional and inflamed response. That person has no interest whatsoever in whatever conversation is going on. Now it's perfectly possible to post extremely provocatively, even swearily (not my style, but respectfully noted as the style of Jeri and, occasionally, Joe) with the intention of clearing things up/showing up hypocrites/exposing double standards/fearlessly pointing to bigotry (and get a dictionary for that one, Joe)/ridiculing people who thoroughly deserve to be ridiculed, quite likely because they themselves have strayed into trolldom, etcetera. If you want an example of archetypal trolling, there is a fellow here, a close friend of Jeri and a man who Joe sympathises with (don't deny it, guys, I have the PMs), who, in any of those God-forsaken Israel threads, calls Jim and me "Jew-haters" at the drop of a hat. I read with amusement the attempted excoriation of us "rabid liberals" here, but I haven't read a single peep about this chap from this fellow's moderatorial supporters here. Not a bloody peep. Second, and probably more than enough for now, we have a fellow here who posts far-right rhetoric without any supporting argument. And he's another good mate of yours, Joe. Good to see you having a go at him at long last, but I'm sure you and he will make it up. He's Bruce, to avoid confusion. He's as rabidly right-wing (and probably proud of it) as anyone who posts here and he couldn't actually argue his way out of a paper bag. But he's such a luvly feller in real life, isn't he, Joe? I know, because you told me so, remember? Really??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: robomatic Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM Jim Carroll's insistence on his lack of antisemitism goes with him even into threads that are not about that subject at all. He literally cannot help himself. He reminds me of Dolph Lundgren in the movie "I Come In Peace" where he, big surprise, plays a violent alien who says "I come in peace" every time he wastes someone. "For the record, Jim, that's not a call you get to make. Those who are capable of judgment get to make it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:37 PM " a fellow here who posts far-right rhetoric without any supporting argument" Actually, you are a damned liar. I OFTEN post the source for my factual statements, and I have as much of a right to MY opinions as you do to your opinions. I will challenge you on most of your posts, that give opinion but you claim as fact. As your previous post, they are your opinion, and often have no relation to reality. Now, care to show SOME bit of non-bigotry, and talk about the number of fellows here who post far-left rhetoric without any supporting argument? Got to bet back to building the next telecommunications Geosync for Western Europe and North Africa. What are YOU doing, Mr. Shaw, to help mankind? : |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:55 AM But you don't take on arguments. You serially miss the point in your messianic haste to get on your high horse. And you really MUST be proud of your right-wing pretensions. You're utterly shameless. Good luck with your geosync. Let's hope it keeps you fully occupied for as long as possible. I've never seen a single antisemitic remark made by anyone on this forum, robomatic. And if anyone wishes to react to that with the usual string of faux-examples, please don't do it here. Start a new thread and I'll see you there. It's such an easy cheap shot and it's pretty disreputable unless you have explicit evidence, and it's very noticeable that those mods who get so irritated with people "attacking conservatism" are so willing to allow these far worse slurs to stand. Please stop using the ploy to stymie discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:56 AM but I think our conservative counterparts here have been reasonably civil in expressing their thoughts - far more so than the embarrassingly angry mob on the left. Good grief, Joe. Have you actually read any of the political threads? Jim makes the point that he has posted massive lists of insults and abuse from one person in particular but a number of others are guilty of the same! As to... Do leftists at Mudcat actually do any of that advocacy? Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor? For me, yes and yes. Do those on the right? Why single out only those on the left as armchair warriors? You say your are impartial in all this but that is looking increasingly unlikely :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: peteglasgow Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:30 AM joe, i really do make a serious attempt on here to be respectful, to not resort to slagging anyone off - and try to imagine i am having an interesting conversation with a few people in the pub. i don't feel i am part of an 'angry horde' nor am i 'rabid' - and certainly not a liberal. (broadly a peace and love socialist type) i do get very bored and irritated with the way threads go sometimes and 'disappear' for a while - but i'm sort of glad that we still bicker on with the occasional interesting ideas. i'm currently working supporting disabled people in fairly . rural north west england, where i am a union rep for 400+ staff, with one other rep. He, like most other people i work with who have an interest in politics is a UKIP type conspiray theorist who prefers trump to obama and is very keen on brexit ('sovereignty!) he is also a good friend. currently we have agreed to not talk about 'all that' because we just get angry about it but we do get on, support each other and try to support our members effectively. i have to be careful what i say every day as to be eg anti-racist or even pro my union is not as comfortable at work as it is on this form - but of course i struggle to keep quiet about my views. i have rejoined the labour to support a more left of centre manifesto. this could my last chance to see a bit of socialism in government and i'm working towards this in my local branch and my union. before this job i worked for a few years in a homeless hostel and will always have an interest in this. 4 people i knew died. every one i worked with was a victim of various forms of child abuse. to me this is the root of many - if not most of the problems we have in society. the fact that these crimes are (or were) often hidden or covertly sanctioned by religious organisations makes me more of an atheist too. i guess i'm fairly typical of people on here and i'm sorry to bore you but i did find it quite annoying (and lazy) to characterise all us lefties as 'rabid' - everyone has a story and surely there are times for some appropriate anger (expressed with civility!) You can't accuse us all of being an 'embarrassingly angry mob' - Could do better (yes, i'm also an ex-teacher) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: peteglasgow Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:47 AM by accident - while replying to insults from a mod - i actually seem to have addressed the title of this thread. staying on topic by mistake! actually, i'm usually more interested in the diverting by ways of a bit of thread drift...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:51 AM Well said again, Pete. That is possibly more along the lines I was getting at. There is no 'angry mob' as you say but purely on the basis that we are a folk music forum, the membership is more likely to be left wing and liberal (in the sense of easy going rather than political). Therefore it makes sense that right wing or conservative (again meaning averse to change rather than Tory) views may get a harder time. It is nothing to do with not accepting people as was originally stated (people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here) but being averse to those views and not letting them by without serious criticism. Unfortunately the right, led by Trump, now see criticism as something to be mocked and rejected out of hand and that is filtering through to here. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:03 AM "Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor?" Yes-yes-yes, but beside the point anyway The fact some people don't come into contact with people in need doesn't mean that they don't exist This is typical "out of sight, out of mind" rightism I grew up in a deprived area in the North of England and was forced to leave home to leave home to find work - many of my friends and family weren't lucky enough to be able to and were forced to endure the prevailing conditions (particularly permanent high unemployment) - those still living are still there Fighting poverty and injustice is not necessarily about working with the poor, which is basically damage repair - it is about working for a society that ends poverty "He literally cannot help himself." When people like Joe who I respect(ed) make he suggestion, no I most certainly can't - fighting anti-semitism was part of my family history before was born Family members too to the Liverpool streets to oppose he Blackshirts - my grandmother was arrested for throwing the stone which hit Moseley When Jewish neighbours told them what was happening in "the new Germany that would roll back the creeping menace of Bolshevism" (as the Western leaders described Nazism), my father volunteered to fight in Spain, was wounded and captured and returned to find he had been given an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist" At teh behest of MI5, he was blacklisted from his work and had to leave home to feed his family Joe's church excommunicated him from his religion (this was, of course, before "Hitler's Pope" co-operated with the Nazis, of course) When I left home, I worked with mainly left-wing Jews, Holocaust survivors included, many of whom became close fre0nds It was one of the survivors of the camps who told me "never again, not to anybody" I'm proud of my family's involvement in the fight against bigotry and race hatred, and I look back with fondness, and a degree of pride at my youth spent with North of England progressive Jews It doesn't bother me when people like Bruce or Bobad call me an anti semite for criticising Israel - they are anti semitic by definition for associating the Jewish People with the policies of the Israeli regime anyway When Joe makes the accusation, as he did not so long ago, it bothers me that some of the terrible two's slime might have rubbed off on him Trumpites, by supporting an antisemitic racists, have lost any right to accuse anybody of antisemitism - as have Tories who remain silent when their Prime Minister refuses to condemn Anti Semitic fascist leasers in the U.N. THese people are opening the door to the current possible rise in the politics that sent six million Jews (and millions more not so well-remembered) to their deaths THese people need to clear out their own house before pointing their fingers TRUMP'S TRIUMPHS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM MI5 would not have used the term "premature anti-fascist" - that label was used against the International Brigades by Communists when the Hitler-Stalin pact was still in force. MI5 would just have labelled them as Communists or Communist sympathizers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:05 AM The term became popularly used regarding those who were penalised for fighting in Spain Jack - maybe it's picked up from the US press It was a badge he wore with pride all his life Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:20 AM Therapists are saying they have never heard so much distress over politics before. The culture and less than civil wars have been fulminating for decades. So lets fix it; Allow Independants to vote in primaries, get rid of super delegates, ban the electoral college (their degrees are worth anything), Use GPS grids instead of gerrymandering, pass a hundred other centrist rules of fairness. Make voting mandatory to keep a drivers license or pay fines, stiffen voter suppression punishments etc. etc. When we can see a fair inclusive process and identify who we all are in a clear democratic and religious way we will trust a democracy that really recognizes everyone without trickery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:19 AM The thing is its easy to be tolerant of people you have no contact with. Mind you, that hasn't helped me tolerate the royal family. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM I suggest Jim Carrol resist his accusatory instincts and write a Democratic platform with the better ideas presented here (like mine ;^/) I bet he can do the best job but maybe not as good as Thomas Jefferson. Where you will have to suck it up is supporting 'the business of America is still business'. As for 'we the people' you will do great. The definitions of certain words will need asterisks to indicate they are Webster unspun meanings like tolerance, empathy and social justice |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Mossback Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:57 AM For Mr. Offer's benefit: https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/usa-today-issues-pathetic-defense-publishing-trumps-op-ed-riddled-lies Rather like the pathetic defense of my buddy Bruce's BS here, eh? https://www.alternet.org/americans-outraged-after-usa-today-publishes-trump-op-ed-filled-lies-and-dangerous-rhetoric This is about Trumpism- not "conservatism". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM I will write the reasonable unbiased centrist Republican Platform. circa Reagan. There is still no action to ban bumpstocks. Centrist Republicans would change that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:56 AM The real problem with the Republican party seems to be that they spend such a lot on their iffy campaigns (s0me say involving the Russians) - they can't really afford to have policies. All the incoming President really knows is that he's in hock to the armaments industry. So theres probably going to be a war at the first opportunity with loads of contracts going to the companies that paid for their campaign. Obviously all hopes for decency from political parties are doomed to disappointment. I feel the same about the party in England I have voted for all my life. I really couldn't say with any certainty what the leader actually thinks about any number of topics. The opposition party is a many headed monster - no one knows which faction has the final say - but their financial backing comes from the great financial institutions. So you DO know that they'll shit on the poor. Its like voting for a vacuum. |