Standing in the Shadows of Motown

Subject: Review: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Blues=Life
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:27 PM

Ok, I admit, it's not folk music. But is it ever good music. I just got done watching the DVD of "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", the documentary about the Funk Brothers, who were the house band in Studio A of Motown Records and were responsible for the Motown sound. After years of being ignored, they have finally been recognized for their accomplishments. The only downside I see in the whole movie is the realization that these old men could outplay me any day they choose, and twice on Sunday. If you get the chance, watch, listen, and turn green with envy. These guys can play!

Blues
(A funk brother wannabee!)

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: musicmick
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:35 PM

I saw the movie at an art house. I have spent forty years avoiding rock and pop music but this had me cheering in my seat. The pure talent and skills on display were overwhelming. My wife had to tell me who had recorded the various songs and I will find those recordings and catch up with the rest of the world.
The Motown sound was a lot folkier than you think. It is rooted in Blues and Gospel. If Bluegrass is second generation folk, so is Rythem and Blues. I have recommended Standing in the Shadows of Motown in my column. Like Brother, Where Art Thou?, it is a clear over-the-shoulder glance at our musical roots.

            Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 May 03 - 12:20 PM

I am an unabashed fan of Motown. I guess that figures, being raised in Michigan. I drive by Hitsville USA, the little house where Motown was founded, all the time. Sometimes I just sit there and remember all the great music that I grew up with. It is so wonderful to know that these superb, yet unsung, musical heroes are finally getting their due.

Mick

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:28 PM

Anyone with half a soul would realise this is great music. I'm looking forward to seeing this film.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:48 PM

Mike: you say, "It is rooted in Blues and Gospel. If Bluegrass is second generation folk, so is Rythem and Blues."

Amen, brother. I couldn't agree more.

Some would argue that the Stax/Volt Memphis brand of soul is more down-home and "authentic" than Detroit's Motown sound. They have a point, but then again, it's *all* great music.

You'd probably enjoy New Orleans R&B as well, which is less widely known and supremely funky. Check out my favorite radio station any weeknight between 7pm and midnight any weeknight:

www.wwoz.org

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:21 PM

The best thing about the movie is the way you eventually get to be able to size up the front people as having "it" or not. The white chick, Joan Osbourne, steals the movie. I sure hope she does a whole album with these guys. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:21 PM

Nothing better than that Motown shuffle beat--I'm really eager to see the film. Saw Mary Wells yesterday on the Today Show, and she sounds better than ever!

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 May 03 - 10:35 AM

I've been thinking about how sad it is that these great musicians remained uncredited and unknown for so many years. It says a lot about Berry Gordy's iron-handed rule and his "star system."

Back in "the day," only the hippest of the hip had any idea who was playing the instruments on all those gerat Motown hits. I suspect the players weren't getting paid very well, either.

Contrast this to the other '60s soul-sound "factory" at Stax/Volt in Memphis, where all the guys in the house band became household names -- they put out their own intrumental records as "Booker T and the MGS," some of which became hits (notably "Green Onions). Guitar players all over the US (and, presumably, around the world, though perhaps to a lesser extent) recognized Steve Cropper as one of the great guitar heroes, and bassist Don "Duck" Dunn and the late Al Jackson on drums were also widely recognized for their talents. In fact, the surviving three members still enjoy plenty of prominence as the house band for the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame, and Steve and Duck became movie stars as "Blues Brothers."

In Detroit, in contrast, Gordy kept his spotlight trained on a few selected stars who fit his vision of popularizing black music for a wider white audience. The basic idea was a good one, and executed with real genius at the beginning, but he took the whole concept to an extreme, culminating in the LasVegas-ification of Diana Ross.

The side musicians were kept anonymous, and even among the vocal groups he tried to keep the emphasis on a single individual, not on the group.

The resentment following the elevation of Ms Ross at the expense of her fellow Supremes is well documented; less well-known is Gordy's abandonment of Martha and the Vandellas when he decided there wasn't room on his label for two first-string girl groups. "Heat Wave" and "Dancin' in the Streets" were two of Motown's greatest recordings, with truly electrifying vocals, but Martha wasn't considered to be as pretty, or sexy, or salable as Diana and so was left behind.

Regardless of the boss' interference, though, those Motown hits were something else altogether, really great stuff, thanks largely to the great musicians featured so belatedly in this film, and also to the songwriting genius of Smokey Robinson among others. My negative words concerning Motown's management should not be taken as a criticism of the music, not by any means.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: musicmick
Date: 11 May 03 - 12:09 PM

PoppaGator, you are correct about the backup musicians working in anonimity but that situation was not unique to Motown. I worked in a NYC recording studio and, with very few exceptions, the wonderful session players were and are nameless and faceless to the general public. It has always been like that. Glen Campbell was a studio legend long before he started singing John Hartford songs. You wouldn't believe how many records featured the steel guitar of Eric Weisberg (uncredited). There are no second rate session players. they are all virtuosos. We just dont know who they are. Pop music, unlike Jazz and Bluegrass, doesn't usually list the sidemen. Pop music is about "stars" because "stars" sell.

But it really was a wonderful movie.

          Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 May 03 - 02:45 PM

Outstanding thread...I saw the Motown Revue in Sheffield in 1964 and there were so few people there that Diana Ross really did look directly at me !! The band was led by Earl Van Dyke and to the best of my knowledge had Benny Benjamin on drums and Jaime Jamieson on bass. Fantastic show and I would love to see the film.PS I don't mean to be disrespectful but didn't Mary Wells pass away some years ago ?

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 May 03 - 08:59 PM

Mike,

Of course, session musicians are normally both excellent and uncredited. However, a "house band" situation is somewhat different from the more usual practice of assembling a different set of players for every session. That Motown gang was so essential to an entire "sound" of many different front-artists over many years, and were uniquely anonymous for such a stable band.

The "MGs" of Memphis offer a stark comparison because they were playing such a similar style, equally successfully, at exactly the same time, and *they* got credit and, at least among the terminally hip, a fair amount of recognition.

I can think of a few other long-running studio bands who have achieved legendary status as groups. In New Orleans, the mid-50s house band(s) at Cosimo's studio have gained recognition at least in retrospect, and the 60s-70s group who manned Alen Toussaint's SeaSaint Studios developed their own identity as the Meters.

In 50s-60s Nashville, some of the most outstanding session players at least got to release instrumentals under their own names, e.g., Bill Black's Combo and the great pianist Floyd Cramer. Several of these tunes "crossed over" to pop, so I got to hear them even in New York/New Jersey, where there was no country-music media when I was growing up there. Cramer's "On The Rebound" was one of my favorite records back in 7th or 8th grade, and one of the select few 45s I ever bought.

Those guys at Motown were not only great players, but a great long-running *group,* and deserved more recognition than they got at the time. At a time when I knew all about everyone who played for Stax/Volt, I didn't even realize that all those Motown hits, by so many different artists, were all the work of one terrific band.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: musicmick
Date: 12 May 03 - 02:20 AM

Right you are, PoppaGator. The most interesting facet of the movie was the stability of the session personel. I suppose that their contemporaries were well aware of their identities and talents. Still, I dont remember seeing any of those musicians when I worked in NYC in the late 60's. It could be that every city had its own session stars. I know that I saw the same sidemen time and time again at my studio (Associated Studio on 7th Ave) and at RCA, Columbia and A&M. It didn't seem to matter whether the session was for a demo or a master. The producers always hired musicians that they knew and trusted. Charlie Macey (on guitar) Irving Spice( violin) Eric Weisberg (on bass, 5 string or pedal steel) were a few of the regulars. Eric was still doing session work even after he had that hit with "Dueling Banjos".
Here, in Philly, Gamble and Huff had their own stable of session pros, none of whom were ever named or honored. Ernie Ransom's name comes to mind. I think that Elmer Snowden did some sessions for them too. Elmer had a very successful jazz band in the 20's and he was the guitarist on the classic Louis Armstrong/ Bessie Smith recording of "St. Louis Blues". But, when he worked for Gamble and Huff, he worked in the same shadow as the Funk Brothers in Detroit.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 May 03 - 10:27 AM

Sorry, I meant Mary Wilson, who is very much alive, and touring(unlike Miss Ross, whose concert tour was cancelled for want of ticket sales)--Mary Wells died in 1992, and was never a Supreme--she was the first Motown artist to score a number one hit, though--

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: voyager
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:01 AM

Saw the DVD this weekend and it was great.

Robert White-
Guitarist on MY GIRL

So much talent, so little credit.
Sounds like the MUSIC BUSINESS to me!
Funk Brothers in LA

Knocks me out!.

voyager

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:20 AM

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to check the movie out.

Joan Osborne is an incredibly gifted singer whose albums, unfortunately, mostly just don't quite live up to her abilities. Her "Live Recordings" CD is well worth picking up, and there are several versions (import, diffrernt covers, etc.) of live CDs out there that have most of the same recordings.

I'd love to see her return to her blues roots for an album or six.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:27 AM

The Motown Funk Brothers wouldn't have been seen in NYC studios since they were constantly on duty in Detroit. I'm sure Gordy kept them busy, and probably tried to keep them anonymous enough that no one would be tempted to "stray" by more lucrative offers to play sessions on either coast.

Of all the great session players mentioned by Mike back at 2:20 am (!!) the *only* name I recognized was Eric Weisberg, who (as noted) made at least one recording under his own name. Simiarly, I suppose I could rattle off a few names of New Orleans session players that few people outside of this area would recognize. Earl Palmer . . . Lee Allen . . . Herb Hardesty . . . Walter "Papoose" Nelson . . . Anybody? Anybody?

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: musicmick
Date: 12 May 03 - 06:37 PM

Eric and I were rehashing old times at last year's Philly Folk Fest. (I hadn't seen him for years until we got booked the same year) Old jazz fans would know of Elmer Snowden. His band was a major attraction on the Black circuit. His sidemen included young, unknowns like Lester Young and Bill Basie,before he was The Count. Elmer's resume was impressive. I asked him if he knew the changes for "Mack, The Knife" and he informed me that he was the tenor banjoist in the pit band when The Threepenny Opera opened in New York. I wasn't the least surprised.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: fat B****rd
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:22 PM

Hey, Poppagator. Earl Palmer is my all time very favourite drummer. Anybody who played on "Good Golly Miss Molly, Bring It On Home To Me, La Bamva and Somethin' Else" gets my vote. The sound of the Cosimo Little Richard sides is wonderful. By the way I believe the Motown men nipped out to play on "Higher and Higher" which Mr. Gordy would pronably not have approved of.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 May 03 - 11:50 AM

Yo yourself, fat B****rd!

A book length biography of Earl Palmer came out about a year ago. Sorry I can't remember the title, but I do recommend it highly. (I never buy books; I'm a hard-core library patron -- my reading habit is way too serious, and would be prohibitively expensive if I were to buy books at retail. Besides, who needs 'em after you've read 'em once? That's why I don't have the title at my fingertips.)

Anyway: one of the many great anecdotes singles out one particular side on which Earl "invented" rock n roll drumming, and describes just what little wrinkle he introduced to revolutionize percussion for the rest of time.

Another Earl Palmer story: Heard a radio interview with venerable jazz drummer Idris Mohammed a few months ago, on the occasion of his first visit back to his hometown of New Orleans after many years. As a much younger man (with a different, pre-Muslim name), Idris had been a member, with Art Neville, of the Hawkettes -- a band best remembered for recording "Mardi Gras Mambo," who also stayed very busy playing high school dances and other rock n roll gigs. Already one of the better-known drummers around town, he got a call from Ellis Marsalis to audition for a jazz gig; he had never played any jazz and didn't feel confident, didn't know what he was doing. Earl Palmer dropped by while they were trying to play -- he wasn't available to join Ellis' band (may have already moved to L.A. by that time) -- listened for a while, and gave young Idris about one sentence of advice (something along the lines of "quit counting and just start feeling the beat") that immediately revelaed to him how he would become a jazz drummer. The point of the story being that Earl was able to quickly sense what was right and what was wrong with the kid's approach, understand the problem from the inside out (i.e., from the player's subjective point of view), and offer a pithy little piece of advice that led to immediate practical insight. As Idris told the story, Earl turned his professional life around in the space of about five minutes.

RE: "Higher and Higher" -- Jackie Wilson was originally from Detroit and returned home as often as he could, so I guess it's not surprising he managed to get the Funk Brothers (or at least some of them) to play on his session. Jackie is the subject of another hardcover bio I found at the library a year or so ago. (Again, I don't remember the title.) What a vocalist! I can never decide which performance is more amazing: "Higher and Higher" or "Lonely Teardrops."

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: John Routledge
Date: 22 May 05 - 09:20 AM

By accident I came across "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" showing on BBC4 UK TV last night.

105 minutes without commercials. I finished watching/listening on a high but worn out!!

What musicianship. What stories. What musical insight.

Almost speechless.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: sixtieschick
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:10 AM

Loved the movie. Joan Osbourne toured with the Funk Brothers last summer. She has also sung with the Grateful Dead. I too was disappointed with her choice of materials on her own CDs--what a talent, though. Glad that the Funk Brothers finally got some recognition--and that at least some of them are still alive to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 May 05 - 10:42 AM

Thanks for refreshing this thread.

I just re-read the whole thing, including my last post, two messages above this and just over three years old. At the time, I might have noted another connection between Jackie Wilson and Motown's Berry Gordy: One of Gordy's very first songwriting credits, and his greatest pre-Motown success, was Jackie's "Lonely Teardrops."

"Higher and Higher" came out a few years later; Wilson and Gordy had gone their separate ways, and Gordy's semi-disguntled and underpaid session-band employees earned a little extra pay playing on Wilson's record, resulting in a bit of controversy. Who knows what kind of soap-opera subtext there might have been ~ bad blood betwen Berry Gordy and Jackie Wilson, perhaps?

Great music, anyway, great movie, and great DVD extras as well. Anyone who still hasn't seen this, please take a hint, do yourself a favor, and check it out!

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:12 PM

No problem Poppa.
I just gotta find it in one of my local shops! Wish me luck!

And speaking of Mary Wilson, I've gotta get my hands on that new compilation of the Supremes' '70's hits.
After Diana, they went from smooth Pop to Funky in the space of a few singles...

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:22 PM

I just started a thread about rhythm and blues that overlaps this one, but certainly would include the Motown era. I have the DVD mentioned, and am enthusiastic about it, too. So often, the musicians that were central to creating new sounds never receive any recognition. I'm glad that this is a wonderful exception.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Cool Beans
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:19 PM

Hello from Detroit!
Hitsville USA is now a museum. You can actually stand in Studio A, where the hits were recorded. Shivers. Talk about standing in the shadow of Motown.
I was there a few weeks ago when Mosaic Youth Theatre, a Detroit after-school theater program, was rehearsing a show about Motown's early days before a small, invited audience that included two Miracles, two Vandellas, a Contour and a Marvelette. That ain't gonna happen in New York.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: John Routledge
Date: 25 May 05 - 09:37 AM

Thanks for info Cool Beans. A Detroit "must visit"

The Funk Brothers were responsible for more No 1 hits than The Beach Boys, The Rolling Stones,Elvis and The Beatles combined.

Till this programme I hadn't even heard the name

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 May 05 - 04:38 PM

Hello AGAIN Poppa G.
Earl Palmer's book "Backbeat" is great as is the Motown Men DVD.
Earl featured recently in two editions of Deep Soul a UK tv program. He looked great and is,I believe, still playing.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:36 PM

Hello again yourself, fB!

I knew Earl Palmer was alive and well because he was in twon just a month or so ago to be honored with a plaque on the Tipitina's "Walk of Fame," but I didn't know whether he's still playing. What a phenomenal drummer!

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: jaze
Date: 25 May 05 - 08:08 PM

The 70's Supremes were actually very good in the beginning with Jean Terrell. They could have been great IF they'd gotten support from Berry Gordy. But he didn't want anyone to outshine Diana Ross. Motown sure did have great musicians. Gotta rent that video.

Subject: RE: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:36 PM

Dian Ross looked at me at Sheffield City Hall in 1964 . It was esy as there were only another 149 people there.