BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong

Subject: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:32 AM

I would normally consider it the height of egotism (or egoism) for anyone to cut and paste from a previous post, but in this case I feel justified.

From September 14th

Mudcat was only a gleam in Max's eye when President Bush senior organized Desert Storm, but I have no doubt that had it been around the same prognostications of doom and disaster would have been spouting from the same people as I am reading here on this thread. There was no shortage of self-proclaimed experts in 1991 wailing about how this was going to be the biggest bloodbath America had ever seen, how the flower of American youth was going to be wiped out, and in the event? You all know what happened. Search your consciences and your memories and try to recollect how you reacted then. Be honest.

The only mistake the Allies made then was that they didn't kick Saddam's ass all the way to Baghdad, and left him holding the reins. I know, it wasn't in the UN resolution. Bugger that, they could have done it anyway, unopposed. That may or may not have been a contributory factor to this latest atrocity. However that mistake will not be made this time. It is always a better bet to forecast doom and disaster, that way when it turns out OK nobody remembers your false prophecies, and if things do go wrong you can always say "I told you so"

Murray

So here we are, the Al Qaida network is virtually in tatters , the Taliban are a spent force and only one American life has been lost. So where are the prophets of doom now?

Ramadan has arrived, everybody was shrieking (not on Mudcat, admittedly) about how we can't possibly bomb terrorists during this holy period or we will alienate our Muslim allies, and what happens? NOT A SQUEAK!!

I do hate it when people say "I told you so, but, "I TOLD YOU SO"

God Bless America.

And thank God that we have a President with the balls to do what is necessary to ensure our survival.

Footnote. I will be unable to answer insults, threats or even common-or-garden replies for the next ten days as my sons are arriving today from Scotland for a ten day visit and I will have to bid a temporary goodbye to the 'Cat. That's the good news. The bad news is that I will be back in ten days time.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 05:17 AM

OK, Murray, so here you poke a little fun at Islam's holy month. And then in another thread, you propose that the Sept 11 hijackers are gay. In yet another thread, you posit that people who call themselves Christians must have fundamentalist beliefs or they can't be Christians....

...are you a bigoted idiot, or do you just sound like one?

Perhaps if you could express conservative ideas without coloring them with bigotry, you might have a chance of convincing somebody your point of view may have some validity. I hope that when you come back in ten days, you bring along some logic, and some respect for your fellow man.

respectfully submitted,

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:08 AM

Enormous numbers of additional non-combatants have become refugees, an unknown number are going to die over the coming weeks and months as in some parts of Afghanistan the problems of distributing aid becomes even greater as warlords carve up the country. One nasty regime has been replaced by what is only to likely to be an almost equally nasty regime.

There have been some appalling massacres. I'm looking at a picture in today's paper of dead bodies with their hands tied behind their backs. Hands tied behind their backs, think of it. That's the kind of thing the Nazis did. ("Nasty things happen in war" said the English Home Secretary, rejecting calls by Mary Robinson for an inquiry into what actually happened - much the same line as I imagine Milosevic is going to take over the Srebenica atrocities.)

There is no real reason to think that anything that has happened has reduced the likelihood of further terrorist outrages. Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose, for what that matters. In any case it doesn't seem too plausible that anyone in Afghanistan could have had anything directly to do with operational planning and carrying out of what happened on September 11. That was done in America and in Europe and in places like Saudi Arabia.

And of course it's not over yet by a long way.

Triumphalism just isn't appropriate. Relief that some things have worked out better than might have been feared, hope that somehow things may work out better than looks likely in the future, some comfort in the fact that at least a few innocent pleasures are now available to people in Afghanistan - kite-flying and music, and that the situation of women may be less restricted. Those are the appropriate feelings.

And if it's true that only one American combatant has been killed, that's good. But the nationality of the victims in this episode are no more relevant to me than the myriad nationalities of the victims on September 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 06:52 AM

Joe, Kevin; Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:14 AM

One man's bigot is another man's freedom fighter ........

And Joe, although I plead guilty to anything you want to level at me concerning my opinions regarding fundamentalist Islam, please don't quote my "Gay hijackers" thread as evidence of bigotry. Nowhere therein is there the slightest hint of bigotry, or prejudice.

"In any case it doesn't seem too plausible that anyone in Afghanistan could have had anything directly to do with operational planning and carrying out of what happened on September 11."

I don't kmow how much sand there is in Harlow, Kevin, but obviously there is enough to cover your head.

Bye for now.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:21 AM

Murray, are you sure you're okay? I mean I've gotten used to your stuff over the years, but are you going through the change now or what? The past few days have been a bit over the top, even for you. Seriously man, are you okay....or just in a testy/playful mood?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:22 AM

Thanks McGrath and Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:34 AM

Kevin, Joe and co, have you not realised before now that Murray is a Scottish Conservative [Unionist]. Thankfully they are a dying breed. And his bigotry would have been appreciated at Holy Cross School. Wee Alex.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:43 AM

I will confess that I had misgivings in late 1990/early 1991 about military action to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait. Like a lot of other people (Colin Powell comes to mind), I was concerned that there would be a large loss of American lives, and a protracted and complicated war in the Middle East for which we had no exit strategy, and for that reason I wanted to give the sanctions more time to work before we went in shooting. As it happened, the war went better for our side than ANYONE expected it to, regardless of which side of the debate they were on prior to the commencement of the air war.

However, one part of my prediction was accurate; we didn't have a good exit strategy. We essentially decided to stop the ground war at the 100-hour mark, for fairly arbitrary reasons, and without doing what was necessary to provide for a more stable situation there in the future. And we were unwilling to revisit our assumptions post-hostilities, instead choosing to keep up a fairly ineffective low-intensity conflict against Iraq through continued diplomatic and economic sanctions, and occasional aerial bombardment of military installations. Ten years later, it's hard to look back and call our actions in Iraq an unqualified success.

As regards the present war, I think people have to pay attention to what President Bush and other military leaders are saying when they remind us that this war is far from over, and the hardest part is yet to come. Remember, this is not a war against Afghanistan, or solely against the Taliban or al Qaeda; it is a war against terrorism, as difficult as it is to define that concept with precision.

I am fully in favor of what we are doing in Afghanistan and elsewhere (in saying this I also admit to being pleasantly surprised with the performance of President Bush -- a man I did not vote for, and of whom I generally had a pretty low opinion before 9/11). I think we're doing what needs to be done, and so far doing it well. But let's not make the mistake of saying we're finished; we have a long way to go with this, and there will undoubtedly be some more surprises along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:20 AM

Thank you, Joe!

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:10 AM

Right on, to your conclusion, Whistle Stop. Well said!

I believe we stopped in Desert Storm because of the alliance and UN pressures to perform exactly what was specified and not a bit more. I would have risked world opinion, and kept pushing - but the previous Bush and his admin thought otherwise. They did put in place some very satisfactory restraints, however in lieu of toppling Sadam - ie the inspections and rules, but when the world alliance lost the will to hold Iraq to them, and the US allowed Sadam to slip back into his "same old used to be." THAT was disasterous in my estimation. Now we a chance to fix it, and that mean simply insisting that Iraq adheres to the original rules. I'd still love to see the Sadam crushed, but world opinion matters, and Arab world concerns about US involvment must be weighed. Sadam can be brought to obey even without being toppled - if not; he'll earn the consequences.

I gather there are other players on the terrorist side, but Israeli/Palestinian issue aside, they all seem to be on their best behaviour, at the moment. I do believe, though, that the Israeli/Palestinian is the heart of this issue. At least it is the wind that fills the sail.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:01 AM

Thanks, Joe. This is one of those few times I wish Max would exercise some censorship and change the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:23 AM

Thanks Jed, and I agree with you. My characterization of our stopping the ground war when we did "for fairly arbitrary reasons" was probably not entirely accurate; as you say, we were a member of a coalition, and some of our partners felt pretty strongly about the need to stop once Iraq had been driven out of Kuwait. Like you, I think it might have been better if we had pushed the envelope of coalition unity a little more than we did on that issue. I also think that we were a little too willing to assume that the regime of weapons inspections, etc. would continue to have the support of the international community; with the benefit of hindsight, that assumption seems kind of naive, although our desire to believe in it was understadable under the circumstances.

Also, it's only fair to recognize that we had some very legitimate concerns about leaving a power vaccuum in Iraq if we did topple Saddam. We have similar concerns about Afghanistan, but we are being more proactive about it this time -- maybe that means we're still capable of learning.

Like you, I think we need to stay engaged in the quest for a peaceful solution to the Israel/Palestine mess, or it will continue to create huge problems for us and everyone else in the world. On this issue I'll give GWB credit for learning from his mistakes; we have re-inserted ourselves into this process now, and we sure don't hear Bush disparaging "nation-building" these days like he did in last year's election campaign. Let's hope we'll all continue to get better at this as we go forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:05 PM

I'm sorry that Murray doesn't seem to understand why his opening post in the "Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay" thread is so profoundly bigoted. I guess it's like those well-meaning people who posit that people of one race are more or less intelligent than another, typically giving differences in brain size as a reason.

I usually try to keep my personal remarks mild, but "bigoted idiot" still seems to be the best description here. I suppose I could have deleted or renamed the threads, but that's not how we do things here. We allow people like Murray to hoist themselves on their own petards. Maybe some day, he'll learn.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:19 PM

Enough sand to cover my head? Not an idiom I am familiar with. I suppose it must mean something.

Anyway I'll expand the point I was making when I said "It doesn't seem too plausible that anyone in Afghanistan could have had anything directly to do with operational planning and carrying out of what happened on September 11."

What seems pretty clear is that the pattern of operations underlying September 11th was one of small cells operating independently, picking out targets, planning independently, and themselves getting hold of the resources they needed. Which in this case consisted of a few knives and some plane tickets, and crucially a bunch of totally committed people.

But the idea that someone stuck in a cave in the mountains in the middle of nowhere, (without even a phone, with the only means of contacting the outside world being it appears to send a courier on a mule) could have had a significant operational control over something like September 11 - well it strikes me as implausible.

The role of Bin Laden in all this would have been to approve, not to direct, except in the most remote way. I don't mean that this mightn't have been a very significant role. It could be that without his blessing the whole thing wouldn't have happened.

But is it really probable that the death of Bin Laden, if and when that occurs, is in itself likely to make that much difference to the possibility of further terrorist outrages? What matters from that point of view isn't so much what happens in the mountains of Afghanistan as what happens in the more comfortable parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 12:59 PM

Murray's comment about McGrath of Harlow burying his head in the sand was rude, and shortsighted but not completely without basis.

It is my understanding that the 19 hijackers had a lot of external support from somewhere and there are many reasons to believe it was Afghanistan. Bin Laden was there at the time and he did have the run of the country, they used modern technology; Video ads, media interviews and press conferences, to recruit. They had access to satellite phones, and offshore bank accounts. They had traning camps with mock ups of buildings some of the rooms of which contained christian crosses.

The 19 required plans and papers to enter the US and apparantly received a large training budget. $50,000 to do a simulator course on the 767 is not pocket change. They were inserted into the US as "Sleepers" to build their covers and prepare. The fact that they all used the same M.O. at the same time smacks of external control. Some may not believe this control came from Afghanistan but most of the rest of the world does.

By the way, except for these details, I agree with MacGrath on the substance of his criticism of Macleod's post.

But I would so so far as Joe has. On the face of them no one of MacLeod's posts crosses the line as being unacceptably bigoted or offensive. For instance, the "gays" one looks like he just had a controversial thought and wanted to express it.

In each, it appears he is trying to make some reasoned albeit flawed, points, but taken together a pattern emerges where it seems he is just trying to stir things up.

I think we've been trolled.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM

The fact that they all used the same M.O. at the same time smacks of external control. It could mean thta. Or it could just mean that the small group of people running it it were part of the same cell.

The point I'm making is basically that the elimination of Bin Laden and his mates in Afghanistan in itself doesn't necessarily mean that we're any safer than we were a couple of months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:27 PM

McGrath, I think a lot of people the world over have been saying the same thing -- including Bush, Rumsfeld, Blair, Putin, and other architects and supporters of our current efforts. Like Jack, I think the level of coordination/control from al Qaeda Central Command is probably greater than you seem to think. But I, and a lot of others, would agree with you that eliminating bin Laden doesn't finish the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 03:05 PM

Jack, me son. Ye must be a sailor. Da rest o yous can't hear the undertow a hissin.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:28 PM

I suspect that a lot of people will be willing to take Bin Laden's place. The only point we dissagree on is whether Al Qaida in Afghanistan was capable of initiating this attack. I fully believe that they were. I am hopeful now, that they no longer have that capability.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:34 PM

They were, they are. Don't hold your breath, Jack. The worst may be yet to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:44 PM

OK I am going to use this thread to apologize unreservedly for the bullshit I have been spouting for the past couple of weeks, and for insulting members here who don't deserve it.

Unfortunately during this time I had allowed my drinking problem, hitherto under control, to run riot, for reasons I can't really go into, ,and the results are staring me in the face. Sobered up today, I bitterly regret having started these threads, and will guarantee never to make another offensive posting here.

Sincere apologies once more to Joe, McGrath of Harlow, WYSIWYG, and to anyone else on the receiving end of my drunken ramblings. It will not occur again.

And now I really AM going to take a break for at least ten days.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:51 PM

Gosh. I thought you were just kidding, aka, trolling, stirring up shit, whatever. In any case, I have taken no offense. I kinda enjoyed the banter. I wish you well in your endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:52 PM

Damn! I thought Murray was going to confess he had put the original Dong in to the original Rama-dana-Ding-Dong; it's just the kind of thing he would do, ya know.

Murray, enjoy your break, keep your chin up and your smile wide.

And if you know who really did it, let us know.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:57 PM

Insulted? I wouldn't call that kind of thing an insult, just an indication of a difference of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:46 PM

Thanks, Murray. I don't mind controversy, but I think it should be presented fairly.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:43 PM

Thanks, Joe; I was going to post a blistering reply, but I like yours infinitely better.

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Kaleea
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 04:15 AM

I thought it was Ramalamma ding dong. I also thought Bush was a beer, or maybe a shrub.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 05:03 AM

Murray, It takes a big man to offer an apology such as yours. I also take back my tirade on you and wish you good luck in your fight against the oul demon in the bottle. Wee Alex.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:55 AM

In my opinion, apologizing for drinking heavy doesn't absolve Murray. Bigotry has consequences and ripple effects when you put that energy out into the world.

It isn't up to us to forgive Murray. It is up to Murray to right the wrongs he has committed, while drunk or otherwise.

But I do strongly urge you to get help Murray. It is the first step to healing the consequences of your actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:06 PM

Busch IS a beer (or at least pretends to be).

As a footnote: The lone American killed, a CIA operative, will, hopefully, be America's only casualty.

The other day I learned that the first American killed in the gulf war was a young fellow named Michael Noline, a Chiracahua Apache from the San Carlos rez.

CB