BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.

Subject: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: GUEST,Ex-Glaswegian
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:22 PM

I thought I noticed something in the war coverage yesterday, and really had it confirmed a short while ago. The BBC were interviewing soldiers in the field, who were definitely implying that this was not what they'd been told to expect. One junior officer almost seemed sarcastic.

The American General who voiced the same concerns was quickly put down by a superior General on CNN, but shortly after, the BBC said that the second soldier was part of Public Relations and was not actually fighting.

I immediately sensed anger in the press corps as they queried Ari Fleischer about this. I'm getting the feeling that the 'gentleman's agreement' seems to have been shattered, and the press are not going to take the information at face value anymore.

Within an hour, an American big shot was on CNN saying (for the very first time) that which I've mentioned above.

I'm sorry I can't remember anyone's names, but I've been watching this while doing some painting, and I'm sure I'm seeing a huge switch happening right now. Has anyone else noticed it?

HD

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM

Optimistic hysteria giving way to pessimistic hysteria.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM

I very seldom watch the friggin' TV, as I think it is a lobotomy and mind control tool of the System, but I hope you are right! I read the papers and check on the Net for "news" (such as it is...).

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM

I saw the "battle of the Generals". You're darn right they didn't want that to happen. If the press DO take off the gloves, this is gonna get sooooooo messy. The "guy" who came on CNN after the press conference, wondered why Rumsfeld was saying it was "Tommy Franks' war" when his own fingerprints (Rumsfeld's) were all over it.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:33 PM

There is an old saying that battle plans never survive the first contact with the enemy, so nobody should be surprised that what they are encountering is not what they anticipated. Of course, listening to politicians and political generals is about as useful as listening to the media for knowing what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:35 PM

About time the press and the media get their thumbs out of wherever they've been keeping them lately and started reporting what's really going on instead of reading from government handouts. I've been watching the regular network evening news programs around sixish, then the National on CBC at ten. Interesting contrast.

By the way, Paul Cellucci is a total jerk!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM

Well, with the military expecting the Iraqi's to run out in the street waving American flags, sure, they wanted it all documented. But someone forgot to bring the food to the picnic and I'm sure the military is concerned about the press.

Not to change the subject, but has Ari Fleisher ever actually answered a question? I think these press conferences are a total waste of time and money because this guy has nothing to say that is new.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM

I heard a short discussion about this on NPR. I thought it notable that one reporter, when telling of some US claims of action, noted that those claims had not been verified by whatever news agency he was reporting for...sorry I didn't catch the name of it.

One can hope...the truth will out!

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM

LH - I very seldom watch the friggin' TV, as I think it is a lobotomy and mind control tool of the System, but I hope you are right! I read the papers and check on the Net for "news"

Don't believe the TV but DO belive newspapers and the net. HUH?

What planet is this on? Sorry - no personal sleight intended but think about that statement and the sense it makes!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

I am friggin' dumbfounded. Paul Wolfowitz (sp?) just said ON CNN:

"I guess we DID underestimate the Iraqui People's willingness to commit war crimes!"

I knew there'd have to be some spin put on today's weirdness, but this caught me completely by surprise.

I'm simply amazed.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:11 PM

From me this will sound like apostacy, but there is something about Rumsfeld to which I actually warm. Whenever I hear him speak, which admittedly is not often, he actually says something - making him almost unique among present-day politicians. I'm inclined to admire his refusal to sit on the fence, and in fact some of his points do make sense. Again this is more than can be said for many other politicians, on both sides of the argument.

By comparison I just can't see any brainpower at all in Colin Powell, even though he's supposed to be the less hawkish, and hence a step nearer my own view.

All of which aside, I certainly picked up a dramatic change in tone yesterday (Thursday) and was astonished at today's mad scramble to evade blame. Obviously the poor Iraqi conscripts, denied access to night vision and blundering round in museum-piece tanks, are ultimately doomed, but you wouldn't have guessed it from the behaviour or the coalition leadership today. In fact rats and sinking ships came to mind. And on the BBC just now, Gen Sir Michael Jackson could not have been more blatant about declining to support Blair's claim that two Brits were "executed." (The MoD had told relatives they were killed in action.)

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:50 PM

Nothing "Mad-Dog" Wolfowitz might say or do should surprise anyone. The man is a psychopath.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM

A Viet Namese speaking friend of mine was an interrogator during the war. He would write his report and give it to the lieutenant, who changed the numbers "because the brass won't accept that". The captain changed the lieutenant's report and the colonel changed the captain's. Is it any wonder that the people with stars on their shoulders are without a clue?

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:25 PM

Rog had high security clearance in the Phillipines during Viet Nam. They had to help unload the bodies from the planes, done at night, and were sworn to secrecy as to numbers of dead.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:48 AM

Here's an interesting article on how the rest of the world's news media is NOT buying into the White House spin on the war...clickety.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for the link Kat. I heard that the New York Times came down against Bush going ahead without UN mandate. Have I got that right, and has any other major US news outlet taken that editorial line?

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 09:57 AM

Hi Rick:
The great quote from Rumsfield last week, on bombing, and why England Germany and Vietnam were able to resist bombing, and Iraq will not, said, that unlike the other nations, Iraq is an oppressive state... Well, at last he agrees with me, I liked Ho Chi Minh, though we still disagree about Mr. Hitler, who I do think ran an oppressive state.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

A reporter with the Marines complained because they weren't being fed (Two meals per 32 hours). The brass said everything was on schedule. Meals went down to one per day. The brass said everything was on schedule. Meals stayed at one per day. The brass suddenly announced a 'catch-up' of 4 to 6 days. Do you get rose coloured glasses with your stars?

I think it was Bill Maulden who said the standing, professional army never won a war. He said their job was to hold the fort till enough civilians could be recruited to do the job. That seems to still hold, but with an interesting new twist.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:28 AM

You're welcome, Fionn. I don't know about the NYTxs, but will see what I can find later today.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Troll
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM

The Coalition troops have moved a phenominal distance in a week. It is not surprising that they have outrun their supply lines, especially since the only port had to be cleared of mines before any supply ships could dock. Add to this the Fedayeen Saddam harassing the supply convoys and you get a situation where logistics is having a bit of trouble keeping up. But supplies are getting through as well as humanitarian aid to the Iraqi civilians, at least those who have not been shot by the Fedayeen and other "paramilitary" forces hiding among the civilian populance.
I have seen no mention of the civilians who tried to flee Basra and were fired on by other Iraqis inside the city with machine guns and mortars. Are you all only interested in news that shows the US and UK in a bad light? Misophist, soldiers are used to missing meals. Evidently, reporters are not. That reporter should request a transfer to a nice safe city desk somewhere. When the commanders say that everything is going according to plan, it is unlikely that they are wholly concerned with whether some feather merchant has his corn flakes. Ammo, medical supplies, water, and food, all must be supplied but when you are on the front lines, ammo and meds come first. When an army has moved as fast as this one has, if there is no imminent battle in the offing, a stand-down or halt of this type is not unusual. There is maintainence to be performed on vehicles and weapons to name a few reasons. And, although you are probably only dily intellectually aware of it, the men need down time as well. Battle takes a hell of a lot out of a man, even one in excellent physical condition, and there's no way to explain a combat troopers mental stress unless you've been there.
As far as the news media goes, Peter T. has it right.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:58 AM

The Bill Mauldin quote is interesting, never heard it before. Any source? The darker truth is that the last thing you want to do is to get democracies grimly determined to fight a war: once they decide they are in, nothing will stop them, they will drop atomic bombs because they believe in their goodness. The pained look on the Rumsfelds of the world is the look of the crusader who cannot believe in the refusal of the crusadee to appreciate the wonderful thing that is being done for him. Hell hath no fury like a crusader scorned.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM

Troll-soldiers may be used to missing meals, but one meal a day for six days will take its toll on anyone who is sufficiently fit to be in the infantry. Soldiers just don't have that much in the way of fat reserves, and MRE's can only do so much.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 11:53 AM

I heard an interview with a soldier on the radio saying that the war was not going the way they had been told it would. On another station (NPR) a reporter claimed that the government had embedded the news media in with troops expecting that it would all be over in a few days and the news people would be there to document it. That is not happening and there is a bit of stress between the men in charge and the newsmen. Censorship is rearing its ugly head.

Also heard an interview with the family of a soldier killed in battle. His mother and family were saying that he died a hero. His father, a Viet Nam vet, was angry, bitter, and saying that this entire war was unnecessary.

I said this in another thread. The US was counting on speed. The Iraqis know it and will drag the conflict out as long as possible in the hopes that public support will fail and Bush will have no choice but to withdraw. 30 days? we will see. I hope he is right.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

"Since the war began, 6,000 precision-guided munitions have been dropped on Iraq and 675 Tomahawk cruise missiles have been launched. As of Thursday, 4,300 precision-guided munitions and 600 Tomahawks had been used. "

And somewhere in Iraq, every one of these missiles has landed. Precision, my foot.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Fascinating Peter. I know that you probably feel that this has all been talked about to death, and perhaps you spent many years discussing same with folks more attuned than any here, BUT...I really would like to know what you think as this progresses(??), with as much background as you have time or inclination to provide.

I did a fair amount of lugging the banjo through Toronto's streets many years ago, and of course knew all the right songs....but the musician is probably the most elite of protestors. I was never whacked by a cop, and when it was wet or cold, I was offered (along with the 'semi-celebrity' academics, and politicos) food, drink and shelter from the elements. The rest froze.

I know that you have put far more things on the line than I ever have, and sometimes when you do a quick 'one line post' on this kind of thing, I'd really like to hear a bit more.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:20 PM

An american reporter yesterday on NPR after witnessing the fleeing Iraqi's said it seemed to be more like people looking for food then reentering the city & counter's that they were being fired upon. Don't believe anything you hear & only half of what you see. It's more like this whole mess is being run by 4 monkeys. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: DougR
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 05:40 PM

Troll: "are you all only interested in news that throws a bad light on the U. S. and the U. K.?" (paraphrasing). 'Twould appear so, Troll.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: toadfrog
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:02 PM

Well Troll, of course you are right. Can't have a war without some hardships. A few setbacks are inevitable. And this one just barely started. Not a whole lot of casualties, as yet. Not something to get hysterical about. War is hell, the man said. Gotta expect a little hell.

On the other hand, we were told, before it started, that the troops were going to romp all the way to Bagdhad, applauded by cheering crowds. The troops were told to expect that. I believe you said something like that yourself, in one of these threads. Please correct me if I'm wrong. None of that has materialized, as yet. And it is troubling when the people in Washington disagree with the troops on the ground, about what is happening on the ground. I guess the troops must be lying, about what is happening in front of their own eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

Twas to be a war without military precedent - just total overwhelming shock and awe. Which is probably why no-one bothered to worry about supply lines, put military police on the case, and do all that boring stuff you do in normal wars.

Troll, where do you dream up such drivel? Even if they were in a temperate climate your claim that ammo is more important than water would be risible. You make much of mental stress affecting even those in excellent physical shape, yet blithely dismiss the significance of food and water in the whole equation.My guess is that morale would be getting fairly low even if the squaddies were getting properly fed.

If it's not surprising that supply lines are a problem, why was the problem not anticipated and sorted? And if there is no problem, why are Rumsfeld and the military passing the buck back and forth with such alacrity? Face it, the show's gone belly up, and there's no easy way out of the mess.

Troll, If you're willing to come back to this thread in three months' time (say end June), I will too - and take my lumps if I turn out to have read the signs wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 08:36 PM

It was said by our troops (a little overconfident after all they've been fed ?) that the way home was through Bagdhad. The Arab & Muslim
world believes firmly that to the British & US what we're really saying is the way to Damascus is through Bagdhad. There will be no joy or let up for the Iraqi people while we occupy their land Dictator or no. Now it's a matter of a holy war with all the Arab & Muslim nations. Can't even begin to imagine the outcome. We may win a war but we'll be a lost nation in the end. Looks like we're giving Syria & Iran an invition into the fracas now too along with Korea. Next thing will be waging war with France, Russia, China & all the UN members that that weren't bullied & then we'll put a solid end to NATO. Boy are we sitting pretty & looking great. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: BBC now CNN breaking with party line.
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM

As usual, Rick, you are modest and assume others have more knowledge than they do.

yours, Peter T.