BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion

Subject: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Guardian reader
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 11:08 AM

The Guardian, well known for its pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel slant, has published two fascinating columns by Julie Burchill.

November 29 column


December 6 column

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 11:43 AM

Juylie Burchill of course has frequently said she is a great admirer of that esteemeded anti-semite Joseph Stalin. So maybe it's just that she'll say anything that might persuade anyone to take any notice of her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Guardian reader
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:17 PM

McGrath of Harlow,

Your distortion of Burchill is quite amazing. As I'm sure you know, Burchill was the daughter of communists who has often said that it was Stalin who destroyed the Soviet promise. "My heroes always disappoint me. Joe Stalin, Indira Gandhi, Bryan Ferry—one by one they blow it," is her well known quotation.

Virtually the entire folk music left of both Great Britain and America were great admirers of Stalin. Ewan MacColl, Pete Seeger, Paul Robeson, to name just a few. Do you also dismiss all of their post-Satlinist opinions? Or are you just trying to tar and feather Julie Burchill because she doesn't share your opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:36 PM

It would be interesting to read what Noam Chomsky has to say on this subject. I reccomend his "Middle East Illusions", Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, ISBN 0-7425-2699-2. I think it's quite brilliant and could be a reasonable way to go.

I have personally talked to Pete about Stalin and the early days of Boshevism. There was a lot of idealism that was inevitably shattered by Stalin's atrocities and the system in the USSR was corrupted
beyond repair. This is pretty much Pete's thinking on the subject now when last we talked of it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: AggieD
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 12:48 PM

Wow, I was quite blown away by these columns.

As a Middle England Jewish woman, I stopped buying the Guardian & Observer years ago because of the rampantly ridiculous editorial regarding Jews/Zionists/Israel.

McGrath you surely are exactly what Julie Burchill is referring to in her column. The typical product of the rantings of time in this and so many other countries against Jews.

I, along with most other Jews often wonder whether the non-Jew next door, whom we have lived with as part of the community for many years, would do as so many did across Europe during WWII, & turn us in to the 'authorities' if there was a purge on us as is so common through time. I wonder if you know that Jews always leave something of their property not quite finished, a brick loose maybe, or a tile, because we consider wherever we live a temporary place, & understand that at any time we may have to move on.

And let's remember that the Jewish society as the ideal is a true communist one. Where the rich look out for the poor, the lame, & all those who are unable to look after themselves. Perhaps this is what so many societies envy about us, that if a fellow Jew turns up on our doorstep, we will never turn them away, but will share our last mouthfull of bread with them, & then go out & work harder tomorrow, so that we can come home again & feed our fellows as well as ourselves. One of our greatest blessings, is to give th charity, something that others seem to forget, in this season of goodwill.

Peace & blessings

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

"My heroes always disappoint me. Adolf Hitler..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 01:33 PM

Since he provides no attribution to the above quotation, I assume that McGrath is speaking for himself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 01:48 PM

Don't be silly. I was amending the quote "My heroes always disappoint me. Joseph Stalin..." given by a previous writer in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 02:21 PM

Guest: Thank you for posting those pieces from "The Guardian." It's the only thing I have read in that newspaper that I agreed with. I bookmarked it so I can read the other columns she has written.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Guardian reader
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 02:30 PM

McGrath of Harlow,

So often in this forum, you have pointed to the Guardian to support your arguments. Now, when a Guardian columnist takes a position that is contrary to your orthodoxy, you attempt to smear her by saying, "frequently said she is a great admirer of that esteemeded anti-semite Joseph Stalin."

That, we both know, is a falsehood by distortion that you fabricated to smear her. And when your smear was shown up for what it was, you respond by fabricating an association with Hitler. That is trolling of the worst kind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

I've only read the first of those two articles so far, and thought it was trite beyond words. For instance Burchill noted that 60 per cent of Europeans thought Israel the greatest threat to world peace, and claimed it was an easy jump from there to thinking the slaughter of six million jews was A Good Thing.

For my own part, I regard the behaviour of some Israeli givernments as outrageous, and regard those who voted for those governments and those (not least, succeeding US administrations) who have supported tnem as guilty by association. But I don't paint all Israeli governments with the same brush, and I certainly don't demonise all Jews for the excesses of Israel's worst leaders. (The demominising has been ably led by the Christian churches down the ages, most notably the Roman church.)

Do Burchill and her admirers really believe it's impossible to draw distinctions? That's as ridiculous as McGrath villifying Burchill for regretting that Stalin lost the plot. Lenin had Stalin summed up, but he had an exceptional vantage point. Many decent people outside the country took many years to realise the horrific truth, but they were not wrong for cherishing the dream.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 04:22 PM

It's not a dusroiryion, she's said it often enough over the years. Whether she actually believes it is another matter.

And in no way did I go in for "fabricating an association with Hitler." My point was that calling the anti-semitic Joseph Stalin a hero is not that qualitatively different from calling Adolf Hitler a hero. If anybody took my post at 17 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM
as a genuine quote from Ms Burchill, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone reading the thread could have done so.

The other people cited who had expressed admiration for Stalin had a plausible excuse in that, at the time they were doing this, this aspect of the gentleman was less generally known. That excuse wasn't available to Julie Burchill - and the fact that her parents were Communists is neither here nor there. Everyione has parents, and it seems to me more often than not we differ from them in politics.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Ann Coulter fan
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:42 PM

I like Julie Burchill.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,923706,00.html

http://media.guardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/0,7495,1083539,00.html

"In 2002, Burchill was investigated for incitement to racial hatred over her criticism of London mayor Ken Livingstone's spending on St Patrick's Day in London, when she criticised Ireland and described the country's flag as "the Hitler-licking, altar-boy-molesting, abortion-banning Irish tri-colour"."

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 05:46 PM

My father told me that during the last war the government portrayed Russia as 'the land where the sun never set' and 'uncle Joe' was a hero. After the war it was a different story.
Julie Burchill merely flies kites and is a silly cow. Now she is joining Rupert Murdoch's team QED! You can't take her seriously as her life story shows she couldn't take herself seriously.
As far as the title of this thread is concerned, I was always taught that if you were anti-semetic you were anti everything that was decent but I am firmly opposed to the way Israel is behaving .. it's as if they learnt nothing from the behaviour of the Nazies and they way their people were destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:17 PM

interesting writing. She oughtta consider posting here -- her style fits (hyperbole and sarcasm).

I've always felt a strange ambivalence toward Israel. On the one hand, I come from a tradition that holds the Jews (and therefore -- by this reasoning -- Israel) as "God's chosen", and that we should always take seriously the command to always side with them, and the fear of condemnation if we "curse" them.

On the other hand, I am an American. My relationship with Jews is with American Jews and, ironically, if I side with them, well, then I sorta hafta be against the nation of Israel.

What'sa guy tadoo?

Mostly I guess I just expect the same standard of getting what I pay for with my tax dollars in our relationship with any nation to whom we give billions. That's currently not the case (prolly).

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:29 PM

Noam Chomsky is Jewish and has a revelatory approach to the problem of
a theocratic Israel. Let Israel be a socialist state, a federation
governed by both Jews and Palestinians. The early Zionism embraced
living peaceably with the people who were disposessed but became
corrupted and distorted by a fundamentalist theocracy in Israel and
an increasingly expansionist policy of a military nature. Hence we have Sharon. I am proud of my Jewish heritage but do not approve of
the Sharon regime and I fear that Chomsky may be correct in saying
that Israel is an American military base.

Not having read the Burchill article, it must be mentioned that a great many Americans before the ending of the Second World War thought
Stalin to be a great ally. His secret atrocities were only made
know to a larger public comparitively recently. As a matter of fact
there was a considerable amount of support for the American Bund and a group of Hitler supporters in the US before anyone got wind of what he was all about.

To characterize Burchill as being anti-semitic because she doesn't approve of the Sharon government is like calling Dean backers unAmerican because they don't support Bush.

Demogogy at work.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:38 PM

see? ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:53 PM

No, Ms Burchill's not being characterised as being anti-semitic. But there's something inconsistent in accusing people of being anti-semitic when one of your heroes - even one you have latterly decided is flawed - was a vicious anti-semite.

The paradox is that if the surrounding countries had not attacked Israel in 1948, and there had been no flight of frightened Palestinians away from he fighting, the country today would have a population equally made upon Arabs and Jews, as envisaged by many leading Zionists. And yet people who call for the return of the refugees and their descendants, which would recreate that very situation, are liable to be called anti-semites who are seeking to destroy the nation of Israel. (The same goes for those who might argue for the establishment of a country covering the whole of what is referred to either as as Eretz Israel or as Palestine, including both Jews and Arabs in full equality, and a right of return from exile for both peoples.)

That is not to deny that there are people who are anti-semitic, and who use anti-Zionism as a cover. There are also people who hate Arabs, and who use support for Israel as a cover, for that matter. You've got to watch out for false friends, wherever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Guardian reader
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:23 PM

McGrath of Harlow,

You state that Julie Burchill has expressed her admiration for Stalin "often enough over the years."

Perhaps you could supply references to such statements that Burchill has made "often enough over the years." Searches on the Guardian site and on Google only reveal her disappointment in Stalin's promises, much like Seeger, MacColl, Robeson, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:20 PM

I read the articles, and I think Julie Burchill suffers from exactly the same problem as the people she is complaining about...only from the exact opposite angle...she's got a huge chip on her shoulder. When that is the case, people tend to see the World through one set of very skewed glasses, and they find evidence everywhere to support their viewpoint, kind of like Erik Von Daniken thinking ancient space visitors were behind everything that ever happened on this planet.

Sure there is lots of prejudice against Israel and the Jews, and some people are virulently (and often secretly) anti-semitic. Others are simply anti-Zionist. It doesn't necessarily equate to the same thing, if Zionism means a policy of aggressive military expansionism beyond Israel's 1948 borders, and that's what it means to me.

There are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to criticize Israel's policies, while not being prejudiced against Jews as a people.

Would I want to live in Israel? No. Would I want to live in most of Israel's nearer neighbours? No. I don't want to live anywhere near there at all, given the general situation.

It's tiresome reading such stuff. She would be very happy at the Toronto Sun, because that's what they're like too. They've got the World all neatly divided up into the few "good" and the many "evil", and no one can change their minds about it, because their minds are made up.

Are the many Jews both in and outside Israel who oppose the Sharon government's policies also anti-Semitic?

You can just as well make a case for a worldwide anti-Muslim conspiracy if you want to...and some people have done just that. Paranoia has a way of fulfilling its own darkest prophecies. Had Julie been born a Muslim, she might now be writing scathing editorials for Al-Jazeera, pointing out how so many people hate Arabs.

It's an argument that works equally well on either side of the line, but gets no one anywhere useful. Rantings against Jews. Rantings against Muslims. Look for 'em and you'll find 'em. Your own dark prejudices will determine which set of rantings (if either) happens to push your emotional buttons and make you cry out for justice. And that will tell you something about yourself...but little or nothing about Jews and Muslims.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:29 AM

Why do people read Julie Bitchkill? I remember in the 70s hearing that she was one of the best writers in the musical papers (I was a teenager then-heavily hung up on music) and so I bought a copy of the NME and read her. I thought her the most ill-informed, musically-illiterate, grammatically challanged writer I had ever come across. However, even then I thought she might cross over into mainstream journalism; not because of any latent talent I thought she might pocess, but because of her unique bitchiness - An updated Linda Lee Potter, if you like.

I was always suspicious of her. Her defence of Stalin rankled and when his crimes were pointed out to her, she would bring out the old chestnut that you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. She also admirred Trotsky, which, when you think how much Trotskiests and Stanlinists hated one another, was a ridiculous contradiction. it was obvous she didnt know the difference between the two. When she went to work for the Mail on Sunday, she dropped her left wing credentials so quickly that you wondered how sincere she was in the first place.

In Bitchkill's world, there is black and white. Take a side, praise it to the heavens, and damn the other side to hell. This makes good copy. THis gets people talking about you. Try and be objective and you will never get noticed. Israel is a case in point. She will gush about the Israelies and damn the Palastinians because she knows it will get up the noses of Guardian liberals. It will get her attention. This is what she wants. She may belives what she says, she may not. This has always been her style and why people still fall for it, I just do not know. She has even been compaired to Dorothy Parker for chrissakes! The keen intelligence, sharp wit and carefully crafted literary skills that informed Parker's writing are notably and conspiciously absent from our less than lovely Julie's.

For what it is worth, I have no opinion one way or the other about Israel. It is two peoples squabbling about a single piece of land. There is nothing unique in that. It will not get setteled until they both put their differences aside and live in peace. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to come about. I think the sympathy that the left has for the Palastinians has more to do with sympathy for the underdog than it has to do with anti-semitisim, although their support comes dangerouslly close to it. Support for Isreal has a lot to do,I believe, with the Arab control of the oil in the middle east and the hostility towards Islam inbred into European culture. Israel's ability to defeat Arab nations on the battlefield has not gone unnoticed.

I havent read the two articles in the Guardian. I havent read Bitchkill for years.In the early 80s, Bitchkill reviewed a single about the invasion of Lebanon by Isreal -I have forgotten the record and the group, unfortunatly-however, I do remember what she said. "Another record about smelly Arabs."

With that in mind, why do people like Julie Bitchkill?

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:41 AM

I've just remembered that there was a play on in London about Julie Burchill, a distinction that she shares with Jeffery Bernard, another journalist of outstanding mediocrity. At least he understood the rules of grammar. How come we never get plays about journalists of genuine merit, such as Martha Gellhorn or Anne Leslie, James Cameron or Wilfred Burchett?

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: mooman
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:22 AM

Like Guest, English Patriot above I have followed Burchill's writing since her early days at NME. I didn't like her ill-informed, highly-biased, semi-illiterate stuff then and I still don't, despite being somewhat left-wing myself. I can't help noticing that she has sold her journalistic soul to the radibly ring-wing Mail, the left-wing Guardian and now to Murdoch's Times.

She would indeed do well as a "trolling guest" here.

Irrespective of that, I cannot really comment on the Guardian's reported anti-Jewish slant, not being a reader, although if it is as reported, I would be very disappointed as it is particular Israeli regimes, such as the incumbent one, that give rise to serious concern rather than Israel in general. I think particularly of Rabin's efforts to secure peace in this respect.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:05 AM

Frank, I think the one-nation solution was originally the idea of Chomsky's pal the late Edward Said. Said latterly accepted that it had become a non-starter, and I've a feeling Chomsky did too.

I don't agree with all Chomsky's theories on transformational grammar etc, but on the middle-east, I can't think of anyone whose analysis comes close. Even those who hold diametrically opposed views would be hard pressed to read one of his bookos cover-to-cover or sit through one of his lectures (if they're lucky enough - it's always the hottest ticket in town) without seeing some sense in his arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps someone can enlighten me - in light of all that has been said about JB, why has the Times offered her so much money?? Does her column add that much to circulation? And if so, why do you think that might be?

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 01:58 PM

Loath as I am to say it, Lyle, she does have a big fan base. Some Guardian readers may very well defect to the Times because of Burchill.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 02:14 PM

Perhaps someone can enlighten me - in light of all that has been said about JB, why has the Times offered her so much money?? Does her column add that much to circulation? And if so, why do you think that might be?

Why does Rush Limbaugh make a lot of money? Why do sex and violence sell movie tickets? Why do most people satisfy a sense of morbid curiosity by rubbernecking at the scene of car and train wrecks? Why have vast numbers of people spent countless hours watching the slow-speed O.J. Simpson chase scene, and countless more hours watching the courtroom trainwreck that was the O.J. Simpson trial? Why do people enjoy watching the TV show "Cops"? Why, before the technology was available to bring most of this stuff to the average person in the "Civilized West", did people; regular people like you and me, spend their hard-earned money to see deformed people in circus side shows? Do you feel enlightened yet?

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

Guardian archive only goes back to '98.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 05:29 PM

An English Patriot and CarolC: Unfortunately, that's about what I thought. I guess what I was hoping for was that maybe she was trying to go a different, more positive direction, and thought a different paper would allow that. Guess some things never change. . .

lyle

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:32 PM

In Rupert Murdoch's Times? Now that is a paper where the contributors follow the boss's line.

Subject: RE: BS: The Guardian on anti-semitism, anti-zion
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:56 PM

Lyle, the only direction that Burchill goes is the direction that leads to the filthy lucre.