Pub & Club Licences

Subject: Pub & Club Licences
From: ET
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:05 AM

Only 3% of pubs and clubs have got their new licences under the 2003 Licencing Act and time is running short. The closing date is early August this year.

The reason is said to be Government Red Tape. Certainly the application form is complicated and the so called guidance is not helpful but please urge your local licensee to go along with this madness. If applications are not granted and sorted in time the rights and conditions of existing licences are lost and its start again.   Don't forget the live music box on the form!

LVAs can help and some have hired tame solicitors to help.

I am not advocating this nonesense but it is now an Act, despite the best efforts of the Musicians Performance Group ably led by Richard Bridge. This big brother tack of the Act is the world we have to live with(and put up with).

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 28 May 05 - 04:56 AM

And the end date is 6th August 2005. Loss of "Grandfather rights" are mentioned at length in a trade magazine called Licensing Countdown. In this there is something called "Facing the Music" about reform of Music Licensing. There is also something called "Live Music - a Step by Step Guide". The Musicians Union has a "Live Music Kit"- How to apply for live music, how to source professional acts, how to contact musicians, matching the act to the venue, promotional tips and payment of artists. See Musicians Union web site www.musiciansunion.org.uk.   Postcards have been sent to 35,000 licensees advising them of this kit.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 05 - 06:03 AM

What do the postcards say? If the message is "ticking the music box saves you money, keeps your options open and doesn't commit you to anything" that's one thing, but if they say "send off for our pack on how to hire professional musicians", I fear it will be destined for the bin in many cases while leaving those crucial boxes unticked.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: ET
Date: 29 May 05 - 05:53 AM

Not seen the cards but there exists a magazine called Licensing Countdown, which warns of the dangers of not obtaining "Gradfather rights" by getting in the application before 6th august and a useful section on "Facing the Music" on this. Facing the Music is about the supposed vibrant live music scene in Wales.   The Step by Step guide is the MU Kit.

Have distributed copies to local music pubs in East Yorks

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: woodsie
Date: 29 May 05 - 06:49 AM

The Nazi Herr BatardCuntBlair state want to stop all music that is not under their control.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 May 05 - 11:16 AM

It's worse than that, Woodsie. It doesn't seem to be about direct control so much as obliging the mainstream music industry, which, no doubt, quietly contributes sums of undeclared moolah to the campaign funds of a government which removes the competition.

The money grabbing moguls of the big record labels will no longer have anything to do with musical innovators, because intellectual property laws prevent them from snatching the copyright of new songs. So no more Beatles, or similar ground breaking acts, just Will Youngs or Gareth Gates's, doling out covers of stuff they already own.

The number of DJs bolshie enough to insist on choosing their own playlists is reducing day by day, and soon they will control music broadcasting completely.

That's why the internet is so important. They will never be able to prevent us from broadcasting our music on sites like Mudcat, and, in the long term that will be where people will look for worthwhile entertainment.

It will be the death of live music, tho', unless we can persuade more licensees to tick the box, and that is where our efforts should be concentrated.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 29 May 05 - 01:28 PM

Quite right to warn of the dangers of losing 'grandfather rights', but also hidden in the Act is the limit of 12 functions a year for village halls and similar venues. Most rely on weekly bookings at least, to keep going financially, and remember, those twelve functions don't necessarily have to be serving alcohol. The inevitable effect will be the enforced closure of many (most?) of these halls, and the loss of the kind of venue where so many of us learnt/are learning our craft. Stay in and watch 'Big Brother', folks, you don't need a weather man, etc etc.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 30 May 05 - 03:58 AM

Rusty Dobro - your quote "Most rely on weekly bookings at least, to keep going financially, and remember, those twelve functions don't necessarily have to be serving alcohol."

Can you expand on that please. Are you saying that there will be a limit of 12 functions irrespective of the licence for village halls.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 May 05 - 04:05 AM

I think it's 12 functions for licence free operation, otherwise a full licence requirement. Most village halls and community centres could not support a full licence, so an exception was made.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Crystal
Date: 30 May 05 - 04:31 AM

It's obvious, they don't want us subversive folkies spreading our dangerous ideas and culture to the innocent children who may then be less receptive to being spoon fed goverment sanctioned pap!

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 30 May 05 - 05:57 AM

If I hire a village hall without a bar and people bring their own, is that part of the Village Hall 12 functions, or is it considered a private booking.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST,muppitz at work
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:46 AM

What a right mess this all is, we're losing our culture, we should all apply to Newcastle Uni for their folk degree because the way things are going that'll end up being the only place we can play the music we love and not have to put up with endless dressed up kareoke reality TV turnouts. Grr.
(Breathe!)
I hope we can find some way back from this.

muppitz x

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST,Don (Wysiwyg) T by the back door
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:12 AM

Villan,

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the answer is yes. It's the public entertainment aspect that requires a licence, whether alcohol is sold or BYO.

In theory at least, you could be required to have a licence for a session in your own living room, if you advertised it, and members of the public (anyone who had not been specifically invited) attended.

This whole mess is so ridiculous that even the lawyers who are trying to give guidance can't agree on a detailed interpretation.

I can play my guitar for a morris side all day with no licence required, but, when they take a break, if I continue to play I am breaking the law. How dumb is that?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:27 AM

So wher do I go from there?

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: treewind
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:39 AM

I'm looking forward to the day coming up soon when most of Britain's pubs will be trading illegally or have to close down. Not because I want them to close, but because then somebody might actually notice that there's a bit of a problem. As it is, a few folkies making a fuss are a minority that the rest of the world can ignore.

And this whole licensing fiasco was marketed to the public with the stated objective of simplifying and streamlining things....

Anahata

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 31 May 05 - 01:35 PM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

'Who is James Purnell?' asked the MediaGuardian in large type last Monday (23 May).

The answer is: since 11 May the new minister for music, licensing, tourism and broadcasting, among other things. But in the two-page feature that followed there was no discussion of his music industry knowledge or musical tastes. In fairness, being MediaGuardian, the focus was on his impressive range of broadcasting industry credentials (including his post as head of corporate planning for the BBC in the mid 1990s).

Purnell's own website lists his interests as football, cinema and theatre http://www.jamespurnell.labour.co.uk/ViewPage.cfm?Page=1721. The Guardian report reveals that he is 'an ardent, season ticket-holding Arsenal fan', adding that this could be awkward when he next visits his Greater Manchester constituency (Stalybridge and Hyde).

Between 1997-2001, before becoming an MP, Purnell was a special adviser to Tony Blair on 'culture, media, sport and the knowledge economy'. He was one of a group of highly regarded Oxbridge educated advisers who 'just cannot hide the fact that they are very, very clever', according to a friend quoted in The Observer ('Labour's New', Kamal Ahmed, 2 June 2002 - http://www.davidlammy.co.uk/da/15759

Purnell and other 'very, very clever' people played, and continue to play in the Downing Street 'Demon Eyes' football team. Members include Andy Burnham MP, David Miliband MP, former advisers Dan Corry, Ed Balls, and Peter Hyman.

1997-2001 was, of course, the period during which the Licensing Bill, now an Act, was conceived and drafted... the Act that kept big screen sport in bars out of the definition of 'regulated entertainment', but which potentially criminalises the unlicensed provision of a piano in a bar, or even one unamplified musician.

For an interesting analysis of New Labour and football see 'Labour comes home' by Philip Collins, former director of the Social Market Foundation, now special adviser to No. 10: >http://www.progressives.org.uk/report/default.asp?action=magazine&articleid=299

Hamish Birchall

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:38 PM

I can't answer that for you Villan, I wish I could, but I know what I shall be doing on Sunday 5th June 2005 (next Sunday).

Providing the weather is fine, I shall be having a picnic lunch with my wife and a friend, Richard Peel, in Whatman Park, Maidstone, starting at noon.

Purely by happenstance, we will have our instruments with us, and if, by chance, anyone else should happen to decide on an afternoon walk with a picnic at the end, and stumble across our gathering, who knows? An entirely impromptu freestyle session might develop.

I'm always delighted to bump into others who share my interest in music, and more so when such contact is unexpected.

Of course, to organise, and advertise, such an event would be an offence unless licensed, and I would never dream of breaking the law.

I wonder who I might find hanging around there on Sunday, with picnic lunch, and instrument in hand...........Interesting, no end!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:53 PM

:-) good luck on that one Don

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Willa
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:09 PM

A spokesman from the MU (sorry I can't remember his name)was at the Cleethorpes FF. He mentioned the Live Music Kit and asked that those who organise folk clubs get hold of a copy and give it to their landlord. Ticking the box to include live music apparently costs no extra. If a later aplication for live music is made there will be an additonal cost. Perhaps there is something practical that those who frequent folk clubs could do, ie get hold of a kit and hand it on, rather than relying on the landlord to respond to the postcard. If the government were really concerned to encourage live music licensees would presumably have received the full kit. Inertia is a powerful weapon!

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:25 PM

I think that the events I run may well be exempt.

Here are some of the rules for exemption.

"Are there any exemptions from the requirement of a premises licence when providing entertainment?"

"Yes. But note that if alcohol is to be supplied, or late night refreshment provided, a licence will be required for those activities."

My Comment
At my club, alcohol is not supplied or late night refreshments. However people do bring their own food and drinks of their own.

"Will a village hall require a licence for regulated entertainment?"

Currently, a licence is required for the provision of public entertainment at such premises and this remains the position in respect of the provision of regulated entertainment under the Licensing Act.

"However, as with church halls, there will be an exemption from the payment of fees in relation to the provision of regulated entertainment at village halls, parish or community halls or other premises of a similar nature."

My club is held in a Village Hall

"If, however, the licence also authorises the use of the premises for the supply of alcohol or the provision of late night refreshment, a fee will be required for those activities."

My comment
As mentioned above, people bring their own.




The main exemptions for the provision of entertainment and entertainment facilities from the requirement for a licence under the Licensing Act are as follows:
for the purposes of or purposes incidental to religious services or meetings or at places of public religious worship;
morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature, or a performance of unamplified live music as an integral part of such dancing;
incidental music – the performance of live music or the playing of recorded music if it is incidental to some other activity which is not itself regulated entertainment;


"garden fetes – or functions or events of a similar nature if not being promoted or held for purposes of private gain; "

My Comment
What is private gain?
I dont make a profit and I do not charge for my time. Any money left over goes straight back into the club for future events.


film exhibitions for the purposes of advertisement, information, education, etc. – if the sole or main purpose of the exhibition of a film is (a) to demonstrate any product; (b) advertise any goods or services, or (c) provide information, education or instruction.
film exhibitions: museums and art galleries – where an entertainment consisting of the exhibition of a film, is, or forms part of, an exhibit put on show for any purposes of a museum or art gallery;
use of television or radio receivers – where entertainment consists of the simultaneous reception and playing of a programme included in a programme service within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (however, showing pre-recorded entertainment would require a licence);
vehicles in motion – i.e. where the provision of entertainment or entertainment facilities take place (a) on premises consisting of or forming part of a vehicle, and (b) at a time when the vehicle is not permanently or temporarily parked.
top

Will church halls, chapel halls, or similar buildings also be exempt from the requirement for a licence?

The use of church halls, chapel halls or other premises of a similar nature will require a licence for the provision of regulated entertainment (unless they come within one of the exemptions listed above) but there will be an exemption from having to pay the fee associated with that provision. If, however, the licence also authorises the use of the premises for the supply of alcohol or the provision of late night refreshment, a fee will be required for those activities.

Can anybody comment further on the above to state wether the village hall needs a licence for my club?

Cheers

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:30 PM

Willa

That person was Mark Addison from Byards Leap Ceilidh Band.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:39 PM

If you can't be 100 percent sure then the local authority will definitely prosecute. It is going to take some case law to iron out the details.

As promoters and organisers can now be prosecuted I can think of at least one regular and virulent commentator on licensing who now has an ideal opportunity to put his money where his mouth is!

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 05 - 04:55 PM

You need to check on that private gain, Villan.
Even charity events are not exempt, tho' the organisers don't make anything from them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:17 PM

Yes you are right.

What I don't want to do is give the village hall a problem.

I rent the room from them and they have nothing to do with what I do.

Is there somebody I can go to, who can advise me what to do, without penalising the village hall.

If necessary I will stop the folk club immediately if I am breaking the law.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:18 PM

Sorry that was the villan using the backdoor

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:13 PM

My understanding of the above is that Yes the Village Hall will need to have a licence, but because it is a Village Hall it will be issued free of charge. But it will still need to apply for the licence.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:16 PM

I don't think there's a need for immediate withdrawal, Villan. Most councils have not been pushing, and seem to be waiting for the new system to be up and running.

I'm in much the same position, except mine is in a pub, and our council seems to be disinclined to act before about November. My feeling is they won't take notice unless someone actually complains.

You might try PM to Richard Bridge, who knows as much as anybody does, and he might advise you of pitfalls, if any.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Rasener
Date: 31 May 05 - 11:30 PM

Thats interesting Snuffy. If it doesn't cost them anything, then I will go and talk with their committee. What would kill my club is increased costs which would then push up the entrance fee to cover costs.

I appreciate what you are saying there Don, and agree short term, just keep going. However the long term looks a bit dubious which is what interests me, unless as Snuffy says the license doesn't cost anything.
I will take up your suggestion and PM Richard Bridge and see what he can offer.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:25 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall

A Department for Culture, Media and Sport document, leaked yesterday, shows just how blatantly the government discriminates in favour of recorded or broadcast music and against live music.

Under the new licensing regime, pubs, bars, restaurants and indeed any venue that is already licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises will automatically keep the 'right' to play recorded music and even have DJs, provided there is no dancing, when converting to the new 'premises licence'. The automatic right to host one or two musicians, however, introduced for such venues in 1961, is explicitly ruled out by the new Act. (See copy of DCMS text below).

Under the Licensing Act 2003, 'any playing of recorded music' intentionally provided in bars/pubs etc to entertain customers is a 'regulated entertainment', and illegal unless licensed. At first sight this looks like equal treatment for live and recorded music - but it will only apply to completely new premises licence applications.

Called 'Embedded restrictions in the Licensing Act 1964' and dated May 2005, the leaked document, aimed mainly at local authorities, sets out the DCMS interpretation of the complex transitional arrangements section of the Act. This covers certain operating conditions that may or may not be automatically carried over when converting to the new 'premises licence'. The fact that DCMS produced this document at all is an implicit acknowledgement that the Act is badly drafted.

~ ~ ~

'It should also be noted that the term "embedded restrictions" can itself be subject to some subjective interpretation.   For example, the holder of a justices' licence permitting consumption of alcohol on the premises is entitled to provide recorded music or the reproduction by wireless (including television) broadcasts without the need for a public entertainment licence.   This can be viewed as an embedded right to be carried over on conversion of an existing licence to a premises licence because it amounts to a relaxation of the normal requirements.   Alternatively, some may view it as a restriction because only recorded music may be provided etc.   We regard this as an embedded right (save in the context of live music about which Schedule 8 makes particular provision) and therefore not relevant to discussions of embedded restrictions.'
DCMS, 'Embedded Restrictions in the Licensing Act 1964', para 4, May 2005

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:13 PM

The Today programme on BBC radio 4 may (or it may not!) carry a 5 minute piece about the licensing act at 7.20 am tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Pub & Club Licences
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:21 PM

Just for information, the picnic in Whatman park was a resounding success, with about a dozen of us singing and playing for the whole afternoon.

The park rangers oozed round for a look, but made no comment. Passing their hut later in the day, we popped in to talk to them, and asked if there were any problems. They said none, and told us we were welcome to come any time when there was no scheduled event, as long as we keep it acoustic.

They said they enjoyed the music, and wanted to see the millennium theatre used as much as possible. The acoustics are remarkable, and we were clearly audible up to about 100 yards from the stage.

We're going to do it again fairly soon, and I will post on the Cat when I have details.

Don T.