BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:48 AM

Keep 'em at each other's throats and they will be far too confused and disunited to ever be able to deal with real problems, like the destruction of their democracy and Constitution from the top down.

Too right, Little Hawk!

Here's hoping that Obama will not fall into the political ruts carved by his predecessors.

Here's hoping that major News Agencies will do what they should. Report unadulterated fact, unclouded by political agenda.

Here's hoping that the Federal Government exerts pressure on State Governments to provide for the unpropagandised education of future voters.

Well I can dream, can't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:32 AM

"(Of course, technically you can't be a Christian and a liar, but we all know better, don't we?)"


                   Those of us who suspect that Christians are basically lying to themselves don't really expect them to tell the truth to anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: MarkS
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:00 AM

"frglebsntchnarzl".

Hawk, you have definitely gone too far with that one,

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:13 AM

Good on you Hawk

OF COURSE we make it all up

but to answer the question succintly...

We do it because the religious people quite frankly use violence to enforce their point of view.
Religious fanatacism actually requires opposion to "war" against.
So we continue to go along to get along.


By the way the word Atheist is out of date
Its now Atheian

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:27 AM

WHY DON'T WE FOCUS ON SOME REAL PROBLEMS FOR A CHANGE??

Like people losing their homes because of layoffs or medical bills?
Like the abysmal state of science and math education in the US, et al.?
Like attention spans measured now in picoseconds?
Like really working to solve the drug problem?
Like people who don't get diagnostic medical procedures because they can't afford them?
Like parents who don't give a rat's ass about their kids?
Like teenage suicide?
Like hopelessness?
Like assuming that military violence is The Answer to every problem?
Like media that glorifies violence because it's good theater?
Like (fill in the rest yourself)....

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:36 AM

Stamp out the scourge of religion, and you're well on your way to solving all of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

I wouldn't swear an oath of allegiance to any politician, monarch or religious movement anyway. They're welcome to earn, my allegiance but making me swear an oath of their making isn't for me.

I am a free man.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

Isn't there something in the Bible about NOT swearing oaths? Swearing to God especially was something I understood to be a Big Fat No-No, and isn't that basically what you do when you swear on a Bible?

If the President-Elect just says, "I promise to do my duty to the best of my ability," then shakes hands with whoever's administering the ceremony, that's plenty good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:18 AM

Yeah, there IS something in the Bible about not swearing oaths! Amusing, isn't it? ;-) But when did people really pay attention to that? Look, we make it all up as we go along...or we just imitate what the previous generation made up as they went along or what we learned in school or saw on TV or something. It's all just "monkey see, monkey do" and hardly anybody really knows why they do anything except eat, sleep, and have sex.

But, hey, a lot of good stuff in those previous posts...'cept for old Riginslinger who is still flailing away in his usual emotional rut, the one that's based on curing all the world's ills through destroying religion. ;-) Gosh, Rig, there would have been such a great spot for you in Pol Pot's Cambodian administration or among Mao's Red Guards...you might've even got to be commander of one of those countryside camps where they were "disposing of the problem", one human being at a time.

Spaw put it beautifully: "The whole problem with identity is that we are all something like 98% alike and refuse to admit it so we focus on the pissant 2% that is different. None of that makes the whole arbitrary bullshit thing any less important but rather adds an undeserved importance to it all."

Exactly. It's unbelievable to me that anybody would even waste any of their time worrying about whether or not Barack Obama swears on a Bible at his inauguration. It doesn't matter. It is inconsequential. And it's his business if he wants to, and it's nobody else's business if he does.

Let's focus on the 98% that's the same about all of us for a change, eh? Wouldn't that be refreshing? Why, we could even probably avoid getting in another war by doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

Much ado about nothing, IMO. The act of being "sworn in" means that the oath being taken is the most sacred and inviolable thing this person can do. I would expect the person taking the oath to swear to honor it using that which is most sacred to that person. In the case of a religious person that would be to the Almighty of his/her persuasion. But if that person were atheist/agnostic and chose simply to swear on his/her honor, it would have the same weight with me, and bear the same consequences.

The militant atheist is just as troublesome to me as the fundamentalist religious person. Live and let live. Obama swearing to God represents no threat to them. As long as he doesn't try to impose it on them, or treat them differently because they don't share those beliefs. Tolerance cuts both ways.

And no, I do not think anyone should be forced to swear on a bible or to a god, if it is not in their belief system.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

The presidential oath isn't an oath of allegiance to any politician, monarch, or religious movement. It's an oath to faithfully execute the Office of Presidency, and to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Those are the most important things a government official can do in this country, and swearing an oath to do them is a big part of what makes this country a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

I didn't suggest the Presidential Oath was an oath of allegiance to any politician, monarch or religious movement, I simply said I wouldn't swear an oath to any of those tossers (except my wife of course!).

I suppose I was thinking that here in the UK they make all new citizens swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen. Sod that, I wouldn't swear allegiance to her or her government as I'm a republican.

I agree with Mick, people who do swear oaths should only include wording relevant to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM


Isn't there something in the Bible about NOT swearing oaths? Swearing to God especially was something I understood to be a Big Fat No-No, and isn't that basically what you do when you swear on a Bible?

What's prohibited in the Bible is swearing FALSE oaths, that is, calling on God to witness as truth what one knows to be false, or that one doesn't intend to perform.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

what happened to the original poster? really didn't get his opinion. is he being like god winding up the clock and just watching as it runs itself down?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

Oh, quite possibly. It's fun to throw the bait in the water and watch the sharks gather. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

Yeah, but I'm already tired of this thread.........no shit, I really am............swear to god!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

Ha! I love your sense of humor, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: skipy
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM

Your assorted "gods" are responsible for most if not all wars! Also millions, yes millions of deaths! I would rather follow a leader who takes it upon him/her self to to shoulder the burden of leadership than one who has a "god" to fall back on & share the blame!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 06:57 PM

No, skipy, you are mistaken. What is responsible for most wars is hunger for land, money, and resources...domination of commercial markets...that sort of thing. It all comes down to money and power. People start wars to acquire more money and power. Religion is just a handy superficial propaganda thing that they use to motivate the fighters (if the fighters happen to be religiously inclined).

For example: The Nazis made much use of Christian religious messages to inspire their troops, reminding them frequently that the Soviets were "godless Communists". This had a good deal of effect in motivating German soldiers to kill lots of Russians and to fear them also, but religion was not the essential force behind Naziism. The essential force behind Naziism was a German hunger for physical expansion of the German state and its valuable holdings and power in the world.

I could list many more examples, but why bother? I doubt you'd be inclined to listen, as it wouldn't serve your specific agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: skipy
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

Correct Little Hawk, men cause war not religion, but religion has ALWAYS been used to drive war fwd. By the way, just for the record, I don't have an agenda, just the right to have my own thoughts which I don't push onto anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:24 PM

"Your assorted "gods" are responsible for most if not all wars! Also millions, yes millions of deaths!"


                      I agree, of course the gods didn't start the wars, because they're not real, but it's all done in their name, over and over and over and...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM

Correct, skipy, religion (or sometimes official atheism's attack on religion) has always been used to drive war forward. That's not the fault of religion itself, however, nor is it the fault of atheism itself, it's the fault of extremely ambitious and ruthless men in government and media who are quick to use anything and everything they can to drive a war forward...for their own gain.

So what do they use? Whatever will work. They use...

Patriotism

Fear of other cultures

Genetic Racism

Cultural racism

The excuse that "they were going to attack us someday, so we'll attack them first"

False flag "attacks" (that didn't really happen or were not perpetrated by the other country that is being attacked)

ecomomic incentives -there's much money to be made in wartime

Political theories - such as Naziism, Communism, the "Free World", Fascism, Maoism, etc

Religion (you have already focused on that, so I hardly need to elaborate)

Past grievances - They did this horrible thing then. Therefore they deserve to be attacked by us now.

Rumors of theoretical threats (like Saddam's nonexistent WMDs)

Declarations of altruistic intent - the USA pretended it was going to war with Spain in 1898 to help Cubans! What a grand pretense. They didn't do it to help Cubans at all, they did it because Cuba and the Phillipines were very rich islands in Spanish possession, full of economic gains to be made if the USA could get them, plus it would give the rapidly expanding American fleet some very handy major bases in both the Caribbean and the Pacific, thus making the USA for the first time a global power...and Spain was a doddering, weak old military power which couldn't possibly win such a war. So the US government convinced its public that it was going to war for altruistic reasons, and to avenge the Maine (which may have indeed been sunk by someone, but I highly doubt it was the Spanish...they were desperate to avoid a war with the USA).

There was no religious reason behind that war was there? Nope. Just the usual reasons of economic, territorial, and strategic gain for the aggressor.

The sinking of the Maine may have been a "false flag" attack accomplished by American agents. It may have been done by Cuban revolutionaries to trigger American intervention on their side. It may have been an accident, due to spontaneous combustion in the coal stores (such things happened to warships on quite a number of occasions back then, and similar things even happened in WWII...the Japanese lost a major battleship to an internal explosion of unknown cause while it was sitting peacefully at anchor one day in 1943). At any rate...I doubt that the Spanish did it.

Religion didn't cause that war. But I bet almost every pulpit in America backed it vociferously. They didn't do so because religion started the war, though, they did so because they probably believed the US government propaganda and were in a frenzy of patriotic fervor.

It's governments who start wars, and they do it for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 09:02 PM

So help me god, or if not, Moi... might be fittin'. It's the kind of oath Miss Piggy would make. Obama, being a more well-read and gracious sort, is likely to amicably leave the phrase is there.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:35 PM

Well, at least it doesn't screw up the scansion of the oath, the way that "under God" did to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:18 AM

Whether the "gods" were real or not, Rig, it's hardly fair to blame them for the wars started by people in their name(s), is it? ;-)

Imagine being a perfectly innocent and kindly god, wanting everyone to be prosperous and happy, and watching in disgust as people all over the place started wars and killed other people in your name! It would make the job hardly worth having on some days...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:34 AM

I agree with your post, Little Hawk..

From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 10:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:43 AM

Thanks. I figured you'd agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:16 AM

LH - Can you shed any light on genetic racism? Cultural I can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

It could be argued that men also cause/d (invented) religions, therefore should never be permitted to blame any atrocity on the gods, time honoured though that excuse may be.

Obama claims belief and perhaps feels that an oath including his god is the strongest indication of his firm intent to do his best. I'd be satisfied with a promise made on his own honour to use common sense and take good advice (and recognize such) in his endeavours.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, Bee, but you don't know exactly what Obama's concept of "God" is, do you? It might be quite different from what you imagine. Maybe even Obama is not entirely clear what his concept of "God" is, after all. (Most people are a bit unsure about the exact nature of the God they believe in...)

Rig - Well, what I meant was this:

Cultural racism - People of basically the same overall racial stock, such as the Scots and the English...or the English and the French...or the Iroquois and the Hurons...or the North and South in the Civil War...or the Japanese and the Chinese...attempt to destroy each other over their petty cultural differences.

Genetic racism - Blacks and Whites...or Asians and Europeans...or Whites and Amerindians...attempt to destroy each other over differences in basic racial type, which I think are differences that could be described as genetic in nature.

Every conflict seems to involve plenty of cultural racism, but a few also involve a specific form of racism based purely on race itself. If so, it will also be accompanied by the usual forms of cultural racism.

It all amounts to one simple, primitive, dumbass train of thought that is held in the mind of a moron: "They're different from us. That's really disturbing to me. Let's kill them."

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:30 PM

I am quite sure that wars are not caused by Gods, but by cartoon characters: Bullwinkle, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, the South Park kids, Rocky, and Miss Piggy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:39 PM

"Yeah, Bee, but you don't know exactly what Obama's concept of "God" is, do you? It might be quite different from what you imagine. Maybe even Obama is not entirely clear what his concept of "God" is, after all. (Most people are a bit unsure about the exact nature of the God they believe in...)
" - LH

Did I suggest otherwise? In terms of oath-taking, it doesn't matter (to me) what Obama's concept of his god is, so long as he believes invoking that god makes his promises more durable or more dangerous to break. Although I still think a person's word should be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

Isn't it remarkable how arguments make much so more sense when you put them in big type?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:22 PM

Well, usually I shrink anything larger than an <h3> headline font (as gargoyle knows), but guess I'll let this go because I guess there's some kind of point here....

I guess I'd say I'm uncomfortable with the use of the name of God in official documents and ceremonies, because the God referred to usually seems to be very closely allied with the Republican Party. I have a very firm belief in God, but not THAT God.

But as Jeri said so succinctly, it's Obama's inauguration and he should be allowed to do what he wants to to - including asking Rev. Rick Warren to give the invocation. And somehow I don't think that born-again Republican God will be attending this inauguration.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:18 PM

"...I don't think that born-again Republican God will be attending this inauguration.:


                      You think Rick Warren will show up without him?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:19 PM

By the way, thanks LH. I'd misread your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:32 PM

Oh, that hardline Republican version of God is a nasty one, all right! ;-) I would not want to meet "Him" in a dark alley, that's for sure.

If I was going to believe in a God that was a humanoid figure of some kind, then I would choose to have a female God who looks kind of like I imagine Joan of Arc...or Lady Arwen from Lord of the Rings. Much nicer in every way. She would deliver some tough lectures from time to time if necessary, but no one would be cast into any kind of a hell, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:08 AM

Little Hawk, If you met God in a dark alley, I doubt the alley would still be dark...you think??

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM

I see your point. ;-) Still, God is both the Alpha and the Omega, right? So can't God be both the darkness and the light? I would figure so.

I don't envision a Universe that is divided into "God" and "not-God", because that just doesn't make sense to me. I think that all of it is God.

I don't think God's "over there somewhere" (at a distance) either. I think God is simultaneously existing everywhere. That would be both outside and within oneself. Such a God, needless to say, is not confined within just one visible figure or manifestation.

The only possible means of separation from such a God is simply a lack of awareness on one's own part...and that is the normal human condition: a lack of awareness (to one extent or another). A fully enlightened human is simply a human who has reached full awareness.

Science has determined that we use only a small percentage of our total brain capacity. What would happen if we used all of it? We would, I think, become extraordinary beings, and many very interesting changes would occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM

On the other hand, darkness isn't something in itself. It's just an absence of light.

Hmmm.

Perhaps your original point was entirely correct, GfS. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

So darkness it is, obviously!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

That horse is already dead!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:03 PM

Uncle DaveO wrote

What's prohibited in the Bible is swearing FALSE oaths, that is, calling on God to witness as truth what one knows to be false, or that one doesn't intend to perform.

but the previous poster (Steve Shaw) who mentioned Jesus in passing

Even Jesus thought that saying yes or no should be good enough for anybody.

was correct, assuming Uncle Dave's Bible contains Matthew's Gospel, where in chapter 5 verses 34-37 Jesus is quoted as saying, "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (That's the somewhat archaic King James Version; the less archaic New International Version translates "         But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.")

FWIWWAAL...

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Excellent. In other words, just say a simple "Yes" or "No", don't embroider it with a lot of grandiose declarations and solemn oaths sworn on this or that, because the insincere do tend toward grandiosity, don't they, and vice versa...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:13 PM

I think the Bringer of Light is somebody else.

I don't think 'So help me god' is an oath. It's more of a perfunctory prayer. (says the atheist)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:21 PM

IF I WERE GOD, I'D ABOLISH RELIGION!!

That would remove the major cause of mayhem, mutilation, and murder, from the face of the earth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

A major cause, maybe. My guess is there are at least two or three others of the same order of magnitude, as causes. Religion looks like a greater cause than it is because it is waved as camouflage by so many actually motivated by other causes, such as greed.

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

Swear to god......I'm gonna' do it!!!!

I am!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

Dear god,

Let this work.....last time tonight......Swear to god!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Atheists: No 'so help me God'
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM

"That horse is already dead!"

                And it was a dark horse indeed!




    "IF I WERE GOD, I'D ABOLISH RELIGION!!"

    "That would remove the major cause of mayhem, mutilation, and murder, from the face of the earth."


                      I agree completely, Don!