BS: Amnesty for Bush???

Subject: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:43 PM

Well, the best I understand this thing is that Bush can pardon everyone but himself so that brings up the question... If Bush pardons the major players over issues realted to Iraq, illegal wiretaps, torture, etc. should Obama pardon Bush???

Or should Bush be investigated and perhaps be brought to justice???

This is a serious legal/moral/political question and not presented as Bush bashing...

So, what do you think and why???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:38 PM

I think he should be left to crumble away, forgotten by everyone except a few historians as a good bad example.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:32 AM

I agree. There's nothing to be gained by wasting time and resources in going after Bush. The American public has much more pressing things to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:58 AM

Well, given the legal situation, Rigs and Rap, that would most likely involve Obama pardoning Bush 'er any federal prosecutor could concievably bring charges against Bush... Ain't that right???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:02 AM

Yes, they could...but they probably will not. Obama's best move would be to say nothing about it at all, but get on with more pressing matters. In other words, look to the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:28 AM

Ain't all that easy, LH... It's gonna come up after Obama is in and he's gonna have to put some fray matter to work on it... I mean, it's gonna become the elephant in the room...

Only two choices I see, unless someone here is very well versed in contitutional law has a third, is pardon or prosecution...

Maybe John from Kansas, who knows everything, will weigh in...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

Bobert, the question is not "Can they?" but "Why bother?" If your house is literally falling down around you, you fix the house -- you don't go looking for the guy who built it, at least not right away.

If you're talking three years or more down the road, well, maybe. But by then most will have forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:10 AM

Should Bush be investigated and perhaps be brought to justice???

Now, why would anyone in the U.S.[ the best country in the world with the best legal system, the best health care, yadda yadda yadda] want to bring this criminal & shredder of the Constitution as well as International Law to justice?

Waste of money & nothing to be gained???? Gimmie a fu$kinf break!

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

There are many facets to the government and there is no reason an office of a Special Prosecutor could not be set up to look into the scandals and pin down the facts. One example is the hip-pocket ownership of the 9-11 Commission. Katrina, the invasion of Iraq, the exposure of CIA agents, the violation of the Geneva Conventions. the firing of Justice officials for political gain, are all rich veins tobe mined--not for public scandal, which is wholly unproductive, but for the true airing of facts outside the electrified arena of gladiator journalism.

There is no reason Obama should spend much or any time in the business. They could just use powers of deposition and mandates for evidence to pull the strings until the facts that can be determined have been pinned down.

A sober report on each topic, based on factual propositions only, would do much to either clear the air or correctly identify criminal wrong-doing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM

There you go Amos, the topic for your next mega-thread of cut'n'pastes of other peoples opinions once we've put your "Declaration of Impeachment" Thread to bed, I'm so looking forward to 4th January, 2009, although I do hope it is kept alive until 4th February.

Only thing is Amos, if they find no case to answer, I take it that you will accept that??

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: GUEST,Fat Peter
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:08 AM

How much was spent in investigating the activities of Clinton's cock? Let Bush go, America; and then the whole world can laugh at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:48 PM

Well, ya know... There is a part of me that say's "Let the samabich get way with it..." That part is based on the fact that not only has Bush worn out country out but he has even worn his adversaries out... I am so itred of George Bush that that part of me says, "Screw it, I just don't have the energy for what would be a very messy trial" but then on the other side there's...

...well, we are obligated because if we don't "out" Bush then the things that were done supposedly in our name were okay when they certainly not okay...

I mean, given my feelings I would almost welcome the "pardon" because it doesn't say that what he did was "okay" but, then again, we will be spared anymore trama from him that a trial would certainly bring...

To sum it up, I feel like I've been in a 15 round fight and I am worn out and so is Bush and the ref is askin' if we want to go a few more rounds...

I am sorry, but I'd be releived to see a "pardon"... Maybe after some time I might change my mind but given the difficult circumstances, I believe the the pardon is the way to go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: DougR
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:00 PM

Bobert: Why don't you sue Bush for all his alleged transgressions? That's one way to get the ball rolling. I should think some ACLU lawyers would be delighted to take your case pro bono!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:15 PM

Too busy, Dougie... You sue him... OKay???

B`

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:22 PM

A commission is being formed by Sen Levin to look into the issue of war crimes by Bush Cheney. Once the commission begins it serves the purpose of running out the clock by guaranteeing to run past the statute of limitations and thus give Bush a de facto immunity/amnesty.

Commissions are designed to find no living person to blame.
ie Warren Commission, 9-11 Commission etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:59 PM

Let's go after Nixon instead!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 07:33 PM

On Christmas Eve 1992, defeated President George H.W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger, Elliott Abrams, Duane Clarridge, Alan Fiers, Clair George, and Robert McFarlane for their Iran-Contra crimes. Not one served a single day in jail; Weinberger was about to go on trial and would have tied Bush himself to the scandal.

Will George W. Bush follow his father's precedent and pardon Dick Cheney and his other criminal co-conspirators this Wednesday on Christmas Eve?

Last week, Cheney was all over TV setting the stage for pardons. He admitted he personally approved torture, but insisted it destroyed Al Qaeda and saved American lives.

According to a powerful article by David Rose in Vanity Fair, the Bush-Cheney torture regime accomplished exactly the opposite. The torture photos from Abu Ghraib helped Al Qaeda's recruitment soar. U.S. officers in Iraq say torture-inspired attacks on U.S. soldiers were the #1 and #2 cause of soldiers' deaths. CIA analysts say the "intelligence" produced by torture was worthless.

On November 20, Rep. Jerrold Nadler introduced H.Res. 1531 to urge Bush not to pardon his criminal co-conspirators. Nadler's bill has 9 co-sponsors but we need every Representative (and Senator) to speak out against corrupt self-pardons.

If you haven't signed our petition to Congress, please join over 48,000 who have:
http://democrats.com/nadler-pardons

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:38 AM

Why would I sue him, Bobert, I think he will go down in history as one of our great presidents!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:21 AM

You people astound me.

This country is supposed to stand for justice and rule of law. Yet in thread after thread, even those who have been opposing the Bush/Cheney gang all these long years are saying, "oh what the hell, let `em go, we don't wanna hear about it anymore."

And the same is echoed in the press and in watercooler talk at the job. Again and again, the concept is reinforced that in the US, you can commit heinous crimes and abuses AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

Look, I came here from Germany almost 30 years ago, thinking I'd find a place where better principles prevailed. Call me naive, but I continue to be shocked by the degree to which lawlessness by the powerful is tolerated, even ignored.

If you, the people, will not stand up to the bastards, but instead keep giving them a free pass, you don't deserve anything better than what you've had for the past 8 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 09:33 AM

Gee, Michael, you're painting with a broad brush!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

DougR said, in part:

Bobert: Why don't you sue Bush for all his alleged transgressions?

Because the suit would get thrown out for lack of standing. An individual can't show that he personally was directly harmed (in the astronomical majority of cases, in any case), and Bobert can't sue for the whole population. Impeachment is the vehicle, if it's to be done, and it's too late for that already.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

And for the record, I have never thought that the American people would go along with another impeachment... The highly political one that the Repubs pulled on Slick Willie soured them... Too bad because if there was ever a president who need a good impeachin', we got him...

In a way, this all worked out well for the Repubs... They got their licks in on Clinton and in doing so protected their guy from takin' his...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:10 PM

Bobert: Don't you think the Democrats would be delighted to impeach Bush if they thought they had grounds for it? They would do it in a West Virgina minute.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:14 PM

michaelr, I'll speak for myself, none of the present administration should be able to skate on the crimes they've commited & the passage of time should innot way get them off the hook.
As for any amnesty, IMHO, out of the question, off the table & that's for the whole bunch. There should be some sort of stop-gap to presidental pardons of this type, I don't care if God commited the crime & had the goods on Bush, no one deserves this sort of protectionist treatment when it comes to giving the nation the justice due them.
We would no more grant pardons to Nazi war criminals or national leaders guilty of crimes against humanity or war crimes & these guys are no better.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:27 PM

Barry-

I think you're being too reasonable.

I don't like to think of myself as vindictive but why not boil the lot of them in oil?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM

The Constitution specifically gives the President the power of pardon. I interpret that to mean the power to forgive someone who has been found guilty, not the power to insure that someone will never even be tried.

I say investigate 'em, prosecute 'em, convict 'em, sentence 'em, and then, if whoever's in charge sees fit to do so, pardon 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

Dougie,

No, the Dems ain't, ahhhhhh, morons... Sure, they might have been able to pull off an impeachment after the 2006 elections but they also knew that had they done that it would have killed their party's chances on winnin' anything in 2008 so...

...they just knuckled under knowin' that, at least for the party, it was better to not impeach than to destroy their party...

That's it in a nutshell...

And as evidence that what I am saying is true, one need look no further than the '08 elestion where Obama refused to take the McCain bait and stayed above politics-as-usaul and crushed McCain...

If one thing that came out of the Gingrich's Revolution (haha) is that the American people a fed up-to-here with partisanship... Newt and Rove lived for it but it's time has passed...

That's kinda why maybe Bush won't do a blanket pardon of Chenay and hsi buds... Bush probably sees what I see and the Dems see and that is more and more investigations at a time when the country is so messed up can only be seen as avoiding the other (note I did not say "real" here issues which affect the average guy on the street more than whether or not Cheney is a crook...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

"Don't you think the Democrats would be delighted to impeach Bush if they thought they had grounds for it?"

Disingenuous. There are grounds, Doug. But as you well know (you do know, don't you?) that it would be pointless with a Republican Congress. It would get bogged down in filibusters and would go nowhere, so why should the Democrats waste the time and the taxpayers' money when they knew it would be fruitless?

But there are plenty of grounds.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM

Amos, I'm talking to the "give it a rest" crowd -- those who would put political expediency above justice and law. BWL has it right in his 07:07 post. This country must stop letting the bastards in office get away with it, or we'll just get more bastards in office. (Same goes for the bastards on Wall Street.)

We have become a nation of enablers for these scumbags, and it dismays me to no end that the middle class so placidly sits by and lets itself (and the poor) get fucked up the ass with a two-by-four.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 01:10 AM

. . . and it ain't finished lumber!

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 01:16 AM

When presidents grant amnesties to departing politicians and staff, do they enumerate the crimes for which the amnesty is being given? If so, it'll take a while just to read the charges for which he's being pardoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnesty for Bush???
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 01:28 AM

I do not feel so all alone -- thanks, Barry!